Tell Me :
Talk
So at the end Let's try to convince Levon to invite Robbie for one of his Midnight Ramble sessions
yes, with co-headliner: a reunited CCR
Now that sounds a bit like overrating for me. The Band were good, no doubt, they may have even been very good or great, but Beatles & Stones were still a different league. For what it's worth, for me The Band and the majority of their catalog always lacked charisma.
Excellent idea. But..he would not show.
I take no sides either, just that Robertson and The Last Waltz gave a false impression of what was going on in the group. Oops, maybe I'm taking sides...I love Robertson's guitar playing, especially when the Band backed Dylan.
What a classy way to go out. Just like that INXS guy and David Carradine.
He also said something about some people robbing with a gun, some with a fountain pen.
Sorry, but I think thats Bullshit. I think he hanged himself because he wanted to end his life. I actually believe you tarnish the purity and honesty of the mans legacy by suggesting he was playing some solo sex game that went wrong. Richard Manuel was a troubled alcoholic. He took his own way out. That was his choice. A lot of us care deeply about Richard Manuel - please dont engage in tittle tattle.
I wasn't trying to make a point, I said simply that Robertson probably saw that Richard Manuel had some troubles and that life on the road wasn't any good for him at that point. And then I was wondering what would have been the fate of the group during the punk years, since they didn't reform until 1983 and by then they were playing for small crowds. Not related to the first part of my comment.
I am not an expert on who wrote what in The Band. But songwriting is songwriting, and arranging is arranging, and playing is playing. It's very simple, legally and ethically: The songwriter gets the credit and the royalties. If he or she wants to share with others, that is their choice, but helping with an arrangement (or playing a distinctive solo) no more entitles someone to a share of the publishing than making the coffee or operating the tape machine.
As to the state of things in The Band at the time of The Last Waltz: I did not know that members were "heavily into heroin". Which members? I can see why Robertson would not want to go on the road anymore, but I never understood why that had to mean effectively ending the group forever. They could have continued recording together.
Sorry, I was assuming crumbling's comment on Manuel's death was true. I really have no idea what happened. I know this is what happened with Hutchence and Carradine. What were the circumstances in Manuel's death? I thought they were pretty foggy.
Sorry to be out of the loop on this but, are you saying that he was jerking off while standing on the tub with his head in a noose for more pleasure?
In spite of what I perceive as your usual condescending tone, Tod, I'll try to clarify: if Robbie hadn't've decided to pack it in chances are Richard still would have ended up topping himself anyway (and it had nothing to do with autoeroticism, folks, sorry). Thereby justifying Robertson's worst fears about "the road". Or if not Richard killing himself directly, possibly either Richard, Rick or Levon OD'ing or something. All three were heavy druggies and boozers. According to his book Levon cleaned up his act somewhat in the mid seventies. Richard tried to get sober, but couldn't do it. Rick...he could have been using till the day he died- I seem to recall he got busted for smack not long before he passed on. Sorta like John Entwhistle, I reckon Rick's body just decided to say "screw it!" after putting up with so much self abuse over the years.
Levon Helm has actually tried to blame all these things on Robbie Robertson, btw- as if Robbie put a gun to their heads and made 'em become junkies...
I get tired of these guys who want to blame everybody else for their mistakes and/or poor judgement...it's a cop out.
Of course, as f-cked up as these guys were they made some of the greatest music of all time. That's what really matters- not petty interpersonal squabbles.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
Gangster-of-love
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:21
Quote
StonesTodQuote
Gangster-of-love
Tod - touche....
phew! finally! i was getting exhausted.....
So at the end Let's try to convince Levon to invite Robbie for one of his Midnight Ramble sessions
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
reg thorpe
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:24
Quote
letitloose
They were the only band I can think of where every member was equally importantly. Its a shame that Robertson seemed to take the position that it was HIS band.
Just me talking..but The Band would not have been without Robertson and they would have still been "The Band" without the other band mates..
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
StonesTod
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:25
Quote
Gangster-of-loveQuote
StonesTodQuote
Gangster-of-love
Tod - touche....
phew! finally! i was getting exhausted.....
So at the end Let's try to convince Levon to invite Robbie for one of his Midnight Ramble sessions
yes, with co-headliner: a reunited CCR
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
retired_dog
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:25
Quote
stones78
It's a shame that Levon & Robbie don't speak to each other anymore, they had like a telepathic connection when they played, at their peak they were up there with The Beatles & The Stones...
Now that sounds a bit like overrating for me. The Band were good, no doubt, they may have even been very good or great, but Beatles & Stones were still a different league. For what it's worth, for me The Band and the majority of their catalog always lacked charisma.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
crumbling_mice
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:27
What pisses me off is that Robertson broke up the Band, but then spent 5 years holed up in with Martin Scorsese in Hollywood doing shit loads of coke and watching movies. Now, if he had broke up the Band to go on and do something else musically that would have been a different story, but he essentially destroyed the essence of a fantastic band for nothing.
Oh and while I'm on...his new album is overproduced and the vocals are terrible.
Oh and while I'm on...his new album is overproduced and the vocals are terrible.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:39
spent 5 years holed up in with Martin Scorsese in Hollywood doing shit loads of coke and watching movies.
Yeah crumbling....remember RR saying how he'd go somewhere for the day and come back ta find Scorsese waiting like a parent for him at the front door....Then they'd spend the night watching movies with Scorsese explaining classic scenes...
Educational ... BUT kinda like living thru My Voyage To Italy .....
ROCKMAN
Yeah crumbling....remember RR saying how he'd go somewhere for the day and come back ta find Scorsese waiting like a parent for him at the front door....Then they'd spend the night watching movies with Scorsese explaining classic scenes...
Educational ... BUT kinda like living thru My Voyage To Italy .....
ROCKMAN
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
barbabang
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:50
The new song is my favorite song of 2011, until now...
Great production and a lovely sound coming from the wurlitzer. Looking forward to the rest of the album.
Great production and a lovely sound coming from the wurlitzer. Looking forward to the rest of the album.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
crumbling_mice
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:52
Exactly Rockman...and if anyone doubts any of this, read Barney Hoskin's book, 'Across the Great Divide' It tells the story of the Band from conception in Canada with Ronnie Hawkins through the Dylan years, a huge bit on The Last Waltz including backstage antics etc (if you watch Neil Young doing Helpless you can still see a mega lump of coke stuck in his nostril!) and eventually to the break up and the death of Richard (who didn't intend to hang himself, he was, allegedly masturbating whilst restricting the airflow to the brain - a practise which if not carried out carefully can result in hanging.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
mickscarey
()
Date: January 6, 2011 22:57
Quote
Gangster-of-loveQuote
StonesTodQuote
Gangster-of-love
Tod - touche....
phew! finally! i was getting exhausted.....
So at the end Let's try to convince Levon to invite Robbie for one of his Midnight Ramble sessions
Excellent idea. But..he would not show.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: January 6, 2011 23:14
Quote
pmk251
I take no stand in the RR-Levon feud. The only ones who should needed to have been there. I have great respect for RR, his songwriting and guitar playing. He's a sexy musician to watch on stage. What he does is extremely tasteful and done with committment and passion.
I doubt if there is any group or individual I respect more than The Band. Amazingly, when I revisit those first three albums my appreciation continues to grow. It is rich, rich music on many levels.
One of my fond memories was having the opportunity to shake Levon's hand and pay my respects. But RR has the right to do what he wants with his life. So did Lennon. And Levon's allegations that RR is, in effect, a thief breaks my heart. All things considered and over the years I have always thought RR's response to those allegations to be relatively restrained, perhaps out of respect for his old band mate.
I look forward to the new music.
I take no sides either, just that Robertson and The Last Waltz gave a false impression of what was going on in the group. Oops, maybe I'm taking sides...I love Robertson's guitar playing, especially when the Band backed Dylan.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: January 6, 2011 23:16
Quote
crumbling_mice
Exactly Rockman...and if anyone doubts any of this, read Barney Hoskin's book, 'Across the Great Divide' It tells the story of the Band from conception in Canada with Ronnie Hawkins through the Dylan years, a huge bit on The Last Waltz including backstage antics etc (if you watch Neil Young doing Helpless you can still see a mega lump of coke stuck in his nostril!) and eventually to the break up and the death of Richard (who didn't intend to hang himself, he was, allegedly masturbating whilst restricting the airflow to the brain - a practise which if not carried out carefully can result in hanging.
What a classy way to go out. Just like that INXS guy and David Carradine.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
buffalo7478
()
Date: January 6, 2011 23:51
I think some of the bitterness comes from Robertson keeping so much of the songwriting credits (smart man) and not sharing with bandmates who may have been contributing (naive men). After the break-up the Bandmates (Naive guys) saw their incomes dwindle and Robbie had a steady flow of cash (Smart guy).
It's the same story that plays over and over again in music. Sinatra made money doing concerts, but his song writers made the real cash. Mick Taylor (allegedly) wrote some Stones material that he was not credited on and probably never received a lot of cash that he may have received.
Money (unfortunately) changes everything.
It's the same story that plays over and over again in music. Sinatra made money doing concerts, but his song writers made the real cash. Mick Taylor (allegedly) wrote some Stones material that he was not credited on and probably never received a lot of cash that he may have received.
Money (unfortunately) changes everything.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
StonesTod
()
Date: January 6, 2011 23:54
as dylan says, "money doesn't talk; it swears."
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: January 7, 2011 00:02
Quote
StonesTod
as dylan says, "money doesn't talk; it swears."
He also said something about some people robbing with a gun, some with a fountain pen.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
duke richardson
()
Date: January 7, 2011 00:03
I read 'This Wheel's On Fire'..Levon's book. Helm was fine with Robertson until the Band dissolved. Robertson has to live with whatever he did, and I'm sure Levon was no saint, but I believe Levon Helm.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
letitloose
()
Date: January 7, 2011 00:14
Quote
71TeleQuote
crumbling_mice
Exactly Rockman...and if anyone doubts any of this, read Barney Hoskin's book, 'Across the Great Divide' It tells the story of the Band from conception in Canada with Ronnie Hawkins through the Dylan years, a huge bit on The Last Waltz including backstage antics etc (if you watch Neil Young doing Helpless you can still see a mega lump of coke stuck in his nostril!) and eventually to the break up and the death of Richard (who didn't intend to hang himself, he was, allegedly masturbating whilst restricting the airflow to the brain - a practise which if not carried out carefully can result in hanging.
What a classy way to go out. Just like that INXS guy and David Carradine.
Sorry, but I think thats Bullshit. I think he hanged himself because he wanted to end his life. I actually believe you tarnish the purity and honesty of the mans legacy by suggesting he was playing some solo sex game that went wrong. Richard Manuel was a troubled alcoholic. He took his own way out. That was his choice. A lot of us care deeply about Richard Manuel - please dont engage in tittle tattle.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
ineedadrink
()
Date: January 7, 2011 00:22
i second that.Quote
letitloose
Sorry, but I think thats Bullshit. I think he hanged himself because he wanted to end his life. I actually believe you tarnish the purity and honesty of the mans legacy by suggesting he was playing some solo sex game that went wrong. Richard Manuel was a troubled alcoholic. He took his own way out. That was his choice. A lot of us care deeply about Richard Manuel - please dont engage in tittle tattle.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: January 7, 2011 00:25
Quote
KeefintheNight82Quote
stones78
He probably felt that something would happen, I mean, by all accounts, Richard Manuel was drinking pretty heavily at that point, and he was known to be rather fragile. What would have happened had The Band in its original form continued through the punk & new wave/disco years? The reformed one without Robertson was playing really small venues and was virtually unknown to young people. I don't think that if Robbie had stayed they would have been much bigger than that.
Your comments make no sense.
It's good Robbie left when he did because punk would have killed the band, or Richard, or both? Good thing Robbie didn't find Richard's body but had he stayed The Band probably would't have been bigger than the small venues they were playing??
No idea what point you are making.
I wasn't trying to make a point, I said simply that Robertson probably saw that Richard Manuel had some troubles and that life on the road wasn't any good for him at that point. And then I was wondering what would have been the fate of the group during the punk years, since they didn't reform until 1983 and by then they were playing for small crowds. Not related to the first part of my comment.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
pmk251
()
Date: January 7, 2011 03:04
It could be very well be that in 1976 RR realized that he had exhausted his great muse, i.e., the landscape of the American rural south, and that he could no longer come up with those great inspired lyrics. That and the fact that other members of The Band, including Levon, were heavily into heroin. Every artist has that golden time, then what?
A few years ago I participated in a Dylan board. Lots of The Band stuff came up. One of the posters on the board was Levon's handler who, like Levon, was very passionate in his animosity of RR. He rallied others on the board to his feelings. I understood his passion because of his relationship with Levon, but I thought it unfair to create this anti-RR atmosphere for what was essentially a private beef that should have been addressed at the time and not after the fact in a book.
My pointless gut feeling: They were RR's songs. It seems harsh to me that so few of the royalties were shared with the other members. It seems contrary to the idea of "The Band." I understand Levon's sense of betrayal. But I do not know where the line should be drawn on any song between authorship and contribution. I wish there had been more sharing. "You take what you need and leave the rest...."
I do not take a side because it is convenient. I admire both men.
A few years ago I participated in a Dylan board. Lots of The Band stuff came up. One of the posters on the board was Levon's handler who, like Levon, was very passionate in his animosity of RR. He rallied others on the board to his feelings. I understood his passion because of his relationship with Levon, but I thought it unfair to create this anti-RR atmosphere for what was essentially a private beef that should have been addressed at the time and not after the fact in a book.
My pointless gut feeling: They were RR's songs. It seems harsh to me that so few of the royalties were shared with the other members. It seems contrary to the idea of "The Band." I understand Levon's sense of betrayal. But I do not know where the line should be drawn on any song between authorship and contribution. I wish there had been more sharing. "You take what you need and leave the rest...."
I do not take a side because it is convenient. I admire both men.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: January 7, 2011 03:19
Levon probably thought that by having helped in the arrangements of the songs he and the others members deserved a songwriting credit, but writing & arranging a song are two very different things. Robbie has said himself for example that "Rag Mama Rag" had no arrangement at all when he showed it to the group and that they all contributed to the final arrangemente, but the song was written by Robbie.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: January 7, 2011 03:32
Quote
stones78
Levon probably thought that by having helped in the arrangements of the songs he and the others members deserved a songwriting credit, but writing & arranging a song are two very different things. Robbie has said himself for example that "Rag Mama Rag" had no arrangement at all when he showed it to the group and that they all contributed to the final arrangemente, but the song was written by Robbie.
I am not an expert on who wrote what in The Band. But songwriting is songwriting, and arranging is arranging, and playing is playing. It's very simple, legally and ethically: The songwriter gets the credit and the royalties. If he or she wants to share with others, that is their choice, but helping with an arrangement (or playing a distinctive solo) no more entitles someone to a share of the publishing than making the coffee or operating the tape machine.
As to the state of things in The Band at the time of The Last Waltz: I did not know that members were "heavily into heroin". Which members? I can see why Robertson would not want to go on the road anymore, but I never understood why that had to mean effectively ending the group forever. They could have continued recording together.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: January 7, 2011 03:34
Quote
letitlooseQuote
71TeleQuote
crumbling_mice
Exactly Rockman...and if anyone doubts any of this, read Barney Hoskin's book, 'Across the Great Divide' It tells the story of the Band from conception in Canada with Ronnie Hawkins through the Dylan years, a huge bit on The Last Waltz including backstage antics etc (if you watch Neil Young doing Helpless you can still see a mega lump of coke stuck in his nostril!) and eventually to the break up and the death of Richard (who didn't intend to hang himself, he was, allegedly masturbating whilst restricting the airflow to the brain - a practise which if not carried out carefully can result in hanging.
What a classy way to go out. Just like that INXS guy and David Carradine.
Sorry, but I think thats Bullshit. I think he hanged himself because he wanted to end his life. I actually believe you tarnish the purity and honesty of the mans legacy by suggesting he was playing some solo sex game that went wrong. Richard Manuel was a troubled alcoholic. He took his own way out. That was his choice. A lot of us care deeply about Richard Manuel - please dont engage in tittle tattle.
Sorry, I was assuming crumbling's comment on Manuel's death was true. I really have no idea what happened. I know this is what happened with Hutchence and Carradine. What were the circumstances in Manuel's death? I thought they were pretty foggy.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
pmk251
()
Date: January 7, 2011 04:07
Hate to say it, but I love this topic. I have spent a lot of time thinking about the RR-Levon situation and the demise of this great group. It is a real tragedy.
Levon in his book covers the drug problems of his, Rick's and Richard's. I read or saw a clip of RR talking it. It was something to the effect that Levon and the others were coming out to California and RR's reaction was "Great...(sarcasm) with a suitcase full of heroin."
I think Tele's analysis above is on the mark. When I read Levon's book I remember looking for a stronger argument or examples of RR's "rip-off," and I thought it came up pretty weak.
I also recall RR saying that he never meant to break-up the group, but he did not want to tour anymore. He has been busy in Hollywood. I think life on the road became an "Endless Highway" for him. He wanted out. He wanted a future.
Levon in his book covers the drug problems of his, Rick's and Richard's. I read or saw a clip of RR talking it. It was something to the effect that Levon and the others were coming out to California and RR's reaction was "Great...(sarcasm) with a suitcase full of heroin."
I think Tele's analysis above is on the mark. When I read Levon's book I remember looking for a stronger argument or examples of RR's "rip-off," and I thought it came up pretty weak.
I also recall RR saying that he never meant to break-up the group, but he did not want to tour anymore. He has been busy in Hollywood. I think life on the road became an "Endless Highway" for him. He wanted out. He wanted a future.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
The Sicilian
()
Date: January 7, 2011 04:57
Quote
crumbling_mice
the death of Richard (who didn't intend to hang himself, he was, allegedly masturbating whilst restricting the airflow to the brain - a practise which if not carried out carefully can result in hanging.
Sorry to be out of the loop on this but, are you saying that he was jerking off while standing on the tub with his head in a noose for more pleasure?
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
KeefintheNight82
()
Date: January 7, 2011 05:04
You can not actually see a lump of coke in Neil Young's nose anymore.
Legend says it was painted out by hand one frame at a time and was never shown in theaters with the white powder visible.
Legend says it was painted out by hand one frame at a time and was never shown in theaters with the white powder visible.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
loveyoulive75
()
Date: January 7, 2011 05:21
Quote
StonesTodQuote
loveyoulive75
Robbie knew that if they'd've carried on something bad would have happened, and sure enough in 1986 it did in the form of Levon and Rick finding Richard Manuel hanging from his shower curtain rod whilst on tour. If not for The Last Waltz it could have easily been in 1979 or something and Robbie himself making the grisly discovery.
a rather curious comment...robbie left the band hoping it would not function without him because if it did someone would do something like hanging himself?
In spite of what I perceive as your usual condescending tone, Tod, I'll try to clarify: if Robbie hadn't've decided to pack it in chances are Richard still would have ended up topping himself anyway (and it had nothing to do with autoeroticism, folks, sorry). Thereby justifying Robertson's worst fears about "the road". Or if not Richard killing himself directly, possibly either Richard, Rick or Levon OD'ing or something. All three were heavy druggies and boozers. According to his book Levon cleaned up his act somewhat in the mid seventies. Richard tried to get sober, but couldn't do it. Rick...he could have been using till the day he died- I seem to recall he got busted for smack not long before he passed on. Sorta like John Entwhistle, I reckon Rick's body just decided to say "screw it!" after putting up with so much self abuse over the years.
Levon Helm has actually tried to blame all these things on Robbie Robertson, btw- as if Robbie put a gun to their heads and made 'em become junkies...
I get tired of these guys who want to blame everybody else for their mistakes and/or poor judgement...it's a cop out.Of course, as f-cked up as these guys were they made some of the greatest music of all time. That's what really matters- not petty interpersonal squabbles.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
stones78
()
Date: January 7, 2011 07:16
Levon's playing here during the guitar solo is so great, he's practically mimicking Robbie's solo, from about 3:55 until the end, talk about a musical connection.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
whiskey
()
Date: January 7, 2011 07:31
I still dont know who the hell he is, even after reading these 3 pages, I can only gather that he is some sort of well known junkass who had some band.Quote
Roll73Quote
whiskey
Who is Robbie Robertson?
Go and stand in the corner and hang your head in shame....
[en.wikipedia.org]
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
whiskey
()
Date: January 7, 2011 07:33
And how come there is 3 pages on this prick on a Stones board.
Re: OT - Robbie Robertson Returns!
Posted by:
tomk
()
Date: January 7, 2011 08:40
Robertson is one of my favorite guitarists in the history of the world,
let me just get that out of the way.
However,if you look at the credits for Big Pink, he and Manuel have a 50/50 split.
And to a lesser extent this is true on the next album. Manuel could write songs on his own.
Robertson has always said he wanted Manuel to write more, but drugs, fame, and alcohol made that impossible. So who was left?
You could tell that after The Last Waltz Robertson had cinematic ambitions.
Remember the film Carny? Unfortunately when you do that, you spend a lot of time just sitting around planning and negotiating and talking, and most of the time nothing gets done, Hollywood being Hollywood. Eventually he just took a cushy office job with Dreamworks. A shame as he's a great guitar player. Then again, maybe he just didn't want to do it anymore. You have to give people respect for that even if they play guitar or sell shoes, whether you like it or not.
Actually, I like his voice, for those type of tunes. Is everyone supposed to have this Bono-type yell? I like To Kingdom Come and Out Of The Blue.
let me just get that out of the way.
However,if you look at the credits for Big Pink, he and Manuel have a 50/50 split.
And to a lesser extent this is true on the next album. Manuel could write songs on his own.
Robertson has always said he wanted Manuel to write more, but drugs, fame, and alcohol made that impossible. So who was left?
You could tell that after The Last Waltz Robertson had cinematic ambitions.
Remember the film Carny? Unfortunately when you do that, you spend a lot of time just sitting around planning and negotiating and talking, and most of the time nothing gets done, Hollywood being Hollywood. Eventually he just took a cushy office job with Dreamworks. A shame as he's a great guitar player. Then again, maybe he just didn't want to do it anymore. You have to give people respect for that even if they play guitar or sell shoes, whether you like it or not.
Actually, I like his voice, for those type of tunes. Is everyone supposed to have this Bono-type yell? I like To Kingdom Come and Out Of The Blue.
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