What's your point here?

That Brian was ahead of them....the car broke down...they passed by, gave him the finger...and went on to the gig?

Yep, sounds like @#$%& to me.

This is a good post and probably right on. It's differnet being Paul and inviting Brian to come along and play on "You know my name, Look up the number" or being John and seeing Brian out socially at the Ad Lib.

It's another thing altogether to be working intensively in the studio.

The only thing I'll add is that I'm certain Mick and Mick might have felt the same way while they were laobring away in France on Exiles and Keith was nodding out under the influence of heroin,

Two wrongs don't make a right, I know.....but I suppose you're feelings on these things depend on who the one is who is committing the infraction.

Also, it is still agreat mystery as to how unreliable Brian really was those last few years.

The Satanic bootlegs seem to show Brian and Keith working well together in the studio...with Keith largely directing.

Brian's playing on BB is largely dismissed yet we hear plenty of evidence of his contrbutions (as well as Micks, obviously, on harmonica. Brian on tambura and on mellotron...and clearly No Expectations is a gem.

We just don't know becasue recording an album takes a while and Brian may have had very good days and very bad days. Unfortunately, we dont have a DAILY chrnoicle of studio recording like that we get with the Beatles.

We've all heard the "lying in the corner reading a book on botany" while YCAGWYW was being recorded....but then we have photos of Brian very actively involved with the Choir performing in the background...so again, which story is the real story.

Everyone points to R & R Circus as showing how bad off Brian was...but the fact is they had all been up 24 hours vy the time the Stones performed.....so anyone would have been tired.....albeit he does look worse for wear than Mick or the others.

Even the "we love you" video is suspect. yes, it does show Brian wasted.....but it's clear that no one that wasted could have played the mellotron bit on the song....and it is Brian playing it. Who knows how many days the song was recorded over?

I suspect he was unreliable at times......but I think his playing was still quite capable and I think the music itself proves that out.

Concerning YCAGWYW....Mick claims he responded to Brian's query about "What can I play" with "I don't know Brian...what CAN you play?" Well, Mick, he could obviously still play slide guitar. So, inferring that he is no longer capable of playing anything doesn't ring true. It's just sarcasm.

Stumbled on this video yesterday, so reposting---I had the same reaction to Brian, Mick, and the great performance a I did 6+ years ago. This was quite a thread!

Wondering: when and where (or for what show) was this filmed?

thanks
-swiss
Youtube clip

Quote
swiss

Wondering: when and where (or for what show) was this filmed?

thanks
-swiss

Ready Steady Go!, November 20, 1964.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Quote
behroez

Quote
His Majesty
This thing of Brian apparently abandoning guitar, thus letting the band down, is more to do with Keith's expectations as to what Brian should be doing musically than what Brian musically wanted to do. The quality of Brian's non guitar contributions tell me it was far from being a bad thing that he chose to experiment with different instruments...

Brian's versatility is a vital part of what makes the Brian Jones era so interesting! Brian helped define classic songs by being the musician he was rather than the musician Keith wanted him to be!

Jimmy Miller about Brian Jones in Rolling Stone Magazine’s review of Beggars Banquet;

"I used to try to accommodate him. I would isolate him, put him in a booth and not record him onto any track that we really needed. And the others, particularly Mick and Keith, would often say to me, 'Just tell him to piss off and get the hell out of here.'"

To me it is clear that Brian had a supreme musically tuned soul, he would hear a song and hear inside himself what was missing and added it. This worked absolute magical the Brian Jones years ARE the true Golden years of the Rolling Stones, and Satanic is a masterpiece proofing that Brian was absolutely NOT incapable at all, contrary. The Stones knew this and left Brian free to fill in the music he saw fit. However something changed in 1968 clearly and it had NOTHING to do with Brian not being able to materialise in sound what stirred him hearing new songs, but it had everything to do with Jimmy Miller and the Glimmers now wanting to DICTATE what they were going to do, with what instrument and how. Brian refused to play the game and was bullied out. Jimmy Miller's comment dating from years after the event are revealing into how much the post 67 Stones sound may actually have been crafted by Miller. i am convinced that if the Stones would in 68 have given Brian the same licence to fill in the tracks as he envisioned fitting we would still have a Beggars, but a very different one (a better one i'm sure). But alas the Stones were determined to become a guitar-rockband and lost some of the magic in the process, or as some one has put it so accurately;

Rolling Stone Magazine, Aug 09, 1969; "If Keith Richard and Mick Jagger were the mind and body of the Rolling Stones, Brian Jones, standing most of the time in the shadows, was clearly the soul."

One of the best threads on iorr and a very good (old) post.

I remember reading about how "important" Miller was to the Stones but because of my naive view of my 60s heroes I didnt get it. I thought they all sat down with their guitars or at the keyboards and started composing. That happened but that was not the routine when one had to produce an album within two weeks.

Miller clearly used his earlier client Traffic (as on SFTD - Dear mr Fantasy or YCAGWYW - Feelin alright). I guess there is the possibility that he had a lot more to do with arranging and suggesting motifs, rhythms, chords etc. They stole right from the beginning but used it brilliantly when producing their own songs. And the thing is, so did the Beatles to a larger extent (to my surprise). Hey Jude is not a original as one may think. It is Pauls truly original song but it is also heavily based on Save the last dance for me (Drifters) and... Dear mr fantasy, Traffic.

They were very good at utilizing songs, artists, musicians etc with a calculated use of people like Cooder, Mayfield and others - in the band and outside. Doesnt matter, theyre still great songs writers but I bet many fans -like me- never knew the extent and that the image of the young English lad suddenly composing brilliant pop tunes out of the blue is very much an image. Yesterday was based on Georgia on my mind.

Perhaps that's something Brian never got, you can steal and still be original and "real". He reminds me of Cobain and his biggest fan, Jim Morrison.

Yes - the thing to do is to go on the telly and let everyone know that you're sick , like some little child, and to let everyone know that you don't work as much as the rest of The Rolling Stones so you don't need a break.

What a great thread. Many insightful comments.
My two cents.
- I've known many addicts and in the end, what happened to Brian is just what happens. He couldn't control his drug and alcohol abuse and he couldn't organize his life. No judgement on him, it's just what happens.
- Mick and Keith were shocked at the way Brian treated women. Leaving a trail of abandoned moms and babies, beating up women ... Keith is almost middle class in his relationships with women and was very close to his mom. It must have upset him. Brian's death also must have upset Keith terribly.
- Brian maybe couldn't separate his private self from his public self. That's what Mick was talking about when he said he wasn't made for show biz. Mick and Keith quite deliberately created public personas from the very beginning. Even 'the Stones' are sort of an entity outside themselves. They talk about the Stones sometimes in the third person.

Quote
GasLightStreet
Yes - the thing to do is to go on the telly and let everyone know that you're sick , like some little child, and to let everyone know that you don't work as much as the rest of The Rolling Stones so you don't need a break.

I see that interview as acting, he just says something that sounds peculiar. Or maybe he ALO said theyd fire him and he made sure they couldnt.

Quote
Deltics

Quote
swiss

Wondering: when and where (or for what show) was this filmed?

thanks
-swiss

Ready Steady Go!, November 20, 1964.

Thanks, Deltics - right on!

Redhotcarpet, Really interesting about Jimmy Miller, songwriting, arranging, borrowing from other songs. Also the observation that Brian might have been trying to be too purely original. What do you mean by this...?

Quote
Redhotcarpet
He reminds me of Cobain and his biggest fan, Jim Morrison.

- swiss

Quote
Redhotcarpet
I see that interview as acting ... maybe ALO said theyd fire him and he made sure they couldnt.

That's an interesting thought!

Quote
GasLightStreet
Yes - the thing to do is to go on the telly and let everyone know that you're sick , like some little child, and to let everyone know that you don't work as much as the rest of The Rolling Stones so you don't need a break.

Not sure what you mean, GLS?

Quote
wonderboy
- I've known many addicts and in the end, what happened to Brian is just what happens. He couldn't control his drug and alcohol abuse and he couldn't organize his life. No judgement on him, it's just what happens.

I've wondered about that some...and about the chicken/egg scenario, meaning which came first? His personality/constitution or the drugs? Is it more simply in Brian's nature to be something of a hot mess -- that he was drawn to being high a lot of the time, and the drugs certainly didn't help? Or was it due to the drugs? I don't know.

Quote
wonderboy
- Mick and Keith were shocked at the way Brian treated women. Leaving a trail of abandoned moms and babies, beating up women ... Keith is almost middle class in his relationships with women and was very close to his mom. It must have upset him. Brian's death also must have upset Keith terribly.

Was Mick shocked? I just don't remember. I would think Mick would find Brian's behavior toward women unseemly and "not done." I would think Keith would find it disgusting and worthy of outrage, for exactly the good points you make about Keith and women. (And by the way, someone made a terrific point somewhere in this thread ago about Keith's being shy but he's never been able to cop to that. He really does seem to be an unusual admixture of introvert and extrovert.)

Quote
wonderboy
- Brian maybe couldn't separate his private self from his public self. That's what Mick was talking about when he said he wasn't made for show biz.

I agree with you.

Quote
wonderboy
Mick and Keith quite deliberately created public personas from the very beginning. Even 'the Stones' are sort of an entity outside themselves. They talk about the Stones sometimes in the third person.

Great points!

-swiss



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-01-29 07:16 by swiss.

Quote
Deltics

Quote
swiss

Wondering: when and where (or for what show) was this filmed?

thanks
-swiss

Ready Steady Go!, November 20, 1964.

Off-topic--I remember watching this the day it aired, and my little mind being blown.

Yes, a very interesting thread. It always thrills me when I see an old thread, and can notice that we were already really smart back then too.
I read almost the entire thread before watching the clip. And, while I have never been a big Brian-character supporter, I thought that the reaction to his interview is a bit blown out of proportion. I see it as him using the forum to speak to others in the band. Like maybe he felt he wasn't being heard by Mick, Keith and ALO. So he used whatever tools he could: drag it out in front of the public. Makes it a lot harder for the other party to say no, now.
You can tell that he feels strongly about this, the way his face and demeanour change when he says "and I think we all NEED a holiday.." Yeah, then he starts rambling on about his own crap.
I always thought that Mick speaks very fair of Brian. That line about "Brian shouldn't have been in entertainment" is very perceptive.

PS re missing gigs. IMO for someone to miss 15 shows is absolutely inexcusable.

So many great comments above.

And, agree, missing 15 shows is pretty bizarre!

This seems to be the first part of their appearance - prior to the interview with Keith Fordyce.

Ready Steady Go Nov 20, 1964 - "Off the Hook"




-swiss

Well Ive read about three missed shows, not sure how many there was really BUT I do think that was his passive aggressive way of getting back at ALO+Jagger/Richards. Childish? Perhaps but they were in their early twenties so... I'm pretty sure Brian saw it as a power struggle and he was right about it being a struggle. Mick and Keith can pretend he was exaggerating but they were given/grabbed/proved themselves worthy of the role as the antisocial counterpart of Lennon/McCartney. It's not like they suddenly were great songwriters, they stole bits, came up with their own, composed words and chords and - with Brian and also Bill and Charlie and Jack produced pop songs. Had they given Brian some sort of official credit he probably would have calmed down. It's not like he was a big child and they were adults. Of course they all fought about everything. Keith still seems stuck in that fight.

Quote
swiss
Redhotcarpet, Really interesting about Jimmy Miller, songwriting, arranging, borrowing from other songs. Also the observation that Brian might have been trying to be too purely original. What do you mean by this...?

Quote
Redhotcarpet
He reminds me of Cobain and his biggest fan, Jim Morrison.

- swiss

He was clearly very intelligent and perhaps too clever for his own good. He took himself seriously, lacked all boundaries except for perhaps self hatred, had a dream and actually saw that dream come true (with Mick and Keith). Brian actually made it out of Cheltenham!

He had everything for a short while and was a smashing hit of the 60s, he was a star and clearly the best looking man ever in 1966. He was a musicians musician but pop is often just about a three minute tapestry of clip art expressions set to three or five chords with a bridge.

He was probably waiting for "Heroin", "The End", "Little red Rooster part two", "The Last Time part three" or the perfect sound but didnt understand the banality of pop. You dont have to steal bits and pieces but it is actually a very common practice. He probably had plenty of tunes in him but just wouldnt sit down and allow himself to be ridiculed. Or go to the studio and just work with an engineer on his own (impossible perhaps but why not invite someone else). There was obviously more (according to Anita) than he dared bring to the studio. He probably thought he had to bring in some serious writing like that letter (though I doubt it was meant as a song).

Had this boy band formed in the 90s he would have had a manager of his own and a secure place in the hierarchy. But then he wouldnt be the original modern rock star.

Quote
swiss
Redhotcarpet, Really interesting about Jimmy Miller, songwriting, arranging, borrowing from other songs. Also the observation that Brian might have been trying to be too purely original. What do you mean by this...?

Quote
Redhotcarpet
He reminds me of Cobain and his biggest fan, Jim Morrison.

- swiss

They took themselves too seriously, produced great songs and made huge impressions on pop culture but couldnt survive fame.

Swiss: Was/is Keith a 'shy boy' as he once called Jimmy Page?
Enough people have described him that way to think it's probably true.
I think more to the point he was a mama's boy, and I mean that in the best sense of the world. His mother loved him, supported him. So that gave him confidence.
Keith was able to grab Charlie and go into the studio and work on a song. Brian, unfortunately, didn't seem able to do that.
One thing I notice about Brian is that he always seemed to be hanging on to more famous people, like Lennon or Dylan, like their fame or whatever would rub off on him. Unlike Mick who once said that he had lots of friends who weren't in the music industry, that probably kept him a bit grounded.

Quote
wonderboy
Swiss: Was/is Keith a 'shy boy' as he once called Jimmy Page?
Enough people have described him that way to think it's probably true.
I think more to the point he was a mama's boy, and I mean that in the best sense of the world. His mother loved him, supported him. So that gave him confidence.
Keith was able to grab Charlie and go into the studio and work on a song. Brian, unfortunately, didn't seem able to do that.
One thing I notice about Brian is that he always seemed to be hanging on to more famous people, like Lennon or Dylan, like their fame or whatever would rub off on him. Unlike Mick who once said that he had lots of friends who weren't in the music industry, that probably kept him a bit grounded.

I think Brian Jones just was one of those cool prinves of the 60s, he was way ahead as a womanizer and social night animal. He got Anita first, spent new years eve in a dark apt in NYC jamming with Dylan who even named Blonde on blonde after him and Anita. The guy lived fast and didnt let himself get tossed aside like others after him. Not yet.

Im sure he could have evolved had he accepted the rules later on

wonderboy, I've always found the "shy boy" comment puzzling - I've never heard Jimmy Page described that way, and there is nothing about him that suggests that he is or was. It's meant ironically, but not sure where it comes from, because I also have not heard that he's particularly bombastic. But, yes, Keith was a shy boy. Or at least introverted and without the social ease that Mick naturally had (and/or was raised to have). KR has called himself a mama's boy, and he definitely seems to be, in the best sense of the word, as you say.

I don't know that Brian was hanging around people for their fame, but more that he considered himself (rightfully) a peer, and that probably Dylan and John Lennon were artists in the way he was more than a Keith or a Mick. Keith is sensitive personally--and some of that translates into music and lyrics--but he relates more to the part of himself that isn't publicly vulnerable (I stumbled upon the maybe(?) the Robert Greenfield Rolling Stone article the other week in looking into something pertaining to Janis Joplin, of all things--Keith was saying that Brian was like Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin in that they all were "fragile," I think was the word he used; and he said he simply isn't that sensitive or fragile to allow himself to be crushed by fame, drugs, etc.). I believe that to be true--i.e., that Keith had/has far more effective defense mechanisms than those people--who seem not to have had sufficient barriers between themselves and the slings and arrows of their chosen, brutal, profession and playing field. Dylan went slinking undercover for sometime--and he has always kept the public at a distance by being inscrutable and a shapeshifter. And John Lennon also, several times, went into hiding--and Yoko was one mechanism that kept him away from the belly of the beast--without her he catapulted into the Lost Weekend and all the associated mayhem and self-destructive emptiness.

But anyway. I think Brian enjoyed being of an "elevated status" of artist, and enjoyed being among others of a similar ilk, having erudite discussions, reveling in all that more than anything to do with famous people. And more than Mick and Keith would. Although I do think Brian was so internally "fragile" that he relied on external validation like a flower in the desert. And once he would get that, he inflated like a puffer fish. I think Mick would enjoy being among "the smart set" because that's where that action and energy is. But per redhotcarpet above, I don't think Mick ever took his own "role of artist" seriously. And, besides, Mick is--and always has been--so grounded in the pragmatic material world. Brian was not a material-world sort of (Piscean) person.

I'm getting sad thinking about Brian.

But I must say...in seeing that little tete-a-tete with Keith Fordyce on Ready Steady Go, I still find Brian just sort of embarrassing: "My resistance was very low--so The Doctors tell me--and when in America, I picked up this virus, which they still don't know what it is. They're growing cultures and--" gets cut off with "--Well, then, this time off comes at a very convenient time, doesn't it? Now if you'll please excuse me--hello Mick!" and Mick busts a grin and scuffles around and is pleasant and light-hearted, etc.

It's not a big deal, but it's just, as I've said before, just a teeny glimpse of the annoying, self-inflated and simultaneously hypochondriac side of Brian. I get that he was being "real" but whether you're a person in public life or private life, almost nobody ever wants to hear you being that "real" about viruses and "The Doctors" and the great mystery that cultures might reveal, in a superficial conversation. Your family and good friends put up with it, but unless you're really ill that's just bloviation.

Now before I further devolve into bloviation myself, I need a break from thinking about Brian the person

-swiss

Spot on swiss

Quote
swiss

Quote
GasLightStreet
Yes - the thing to do is to go on the telly and let everyone know that you're sick , like some little child, and to let everyone know that you don't work as much as the rest of The Rolling Stones so you don't need a break.

Not sure what you mean, GLS?

It's in line, a bit sarcastically, with how stupid and weak Brian was, that's all, which you've pointed out as well as others. He was completely incapable of "getting with the program" as the saying goes (which is quite stupid, really).

Quote
swiss

Quote
wonderboy
- I've known many addicts and in the end, what happened to Brian is just what happens. He couldn't control his drug and alcohol abuse and he couldn't organize his life. No judgement on him, it's just what happens.

I've wondered about that some...and about the chicken/egg scenario, meaning which came first? His personality/constitution or the drugs? Is it more simply in Brian's nature to be something of a hot mess -- that he was drawn to being high a lot of the time, and the drugs certainly didn't help? Or was it due to the drugs? I don't know.

Well, as science has shown, something laid the egg. So his personality being such a piece of shit got amplified by drugs!

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
swiss

Quote
GasLightStreet
Yes - the thing to do is to go on the telly and let everyone know that you're sick , like some little child, and to let everyone know that you don't work as much as the rest of The Rolling Stones so you don't need a break.

Not sure what you mean, GLS?

It's in line, a bit sarcastically, with how stupid and weak Brian was, that's all, which you've pointed out as well as others. He was completely incapable of "getting with the program" as the saying goes (which is quite stupid, really).

Quote
swiss

Quote
wonderboy
- I've known many addicts and in the end, what happened to Brian is just what happens. He couldn't control his drug and alcohol abuse and he couldn't organize his life. No judgement on him, it's just what happens.

I've wondered about that some...and about the chicken/egg scenario, meaning which came first? His personality/constitution or the drugs? Is it more simply in Brian's nature to be something of a hot mess -- that he was drawn to being high a lot of the time, and the drugs certainly didn't help? Or was it due to the drugs? I don't know.

Well, as science has shown, something laid the egg. So his personality being such a piece of shit got amplified by drugs!

Brian Jones was Sixties Rolling Stone, and gaslight I don't like your streettalk

Quote
runaway
Brian Jones was Sixties Rolling Stone, and gaslight I don't like your streettalk

I see you're making as much sense as Brian Jones. So on that note...

HUH?

Whutever. Oh are you offended? Did I offend you?

Weak.

Well it would seem that Brian nearly didn't make that edition of Ready Steady Go either.

NME November 20 1964.


Record Mirror November 21 1964


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2017-01-30 20:40 by Deltics.

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
runaway
Brian Jones was Sixties Rolling Stone, and gaslight I don't like your streettalk

I see you're making as much sense as Brian Jones. So on that note...

HUH?

Whutever. Oh are you offended? Did I offend you?

Weak.

I'm not offended but do think Brian Jones should be respected

Quote
runaway

Quote
GasLightStreet

Quote
runaway
Brian Jones was Sixties Rolling Stone, and gaslight I don't like your streettalk

I see you're making as much sense as Brian Jones. So on that note...

HUH?

Whutever. Oh are you offended? Did I offend you?

Weak.

I'm not offended but do think Brian Jones should be respected

Oh. Well, he was an idiot. Can't respect an idiot.

His musicianship though... sure.

But youre a fan of the idiots band

[youtu.be]

Heres Keith comment about Kurt Cobain.