Has anyone ever asked Mick or Keith why they still do so many warhorses? And why they (the warhorses) sound the same from concert to concert? Through the years I have a developed an allergy against them. Am I the only one? If there will be a new tour: Do you think half (or more) of the setlists will consist of warhorses this time around too?

Well, I haven't asked them, but I'd bet that they play warhorses because that's what 90% of the audience is familiar with.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-15 21:44 by Edith Grove.

Laziness + mistrusting the audience = warhorse-filled setlists.

Justin: Your equation is probably about right! I know this matter has been discussed over and over; but I have never actually heard Mick or Keith commenting on it.

Funny that because..Warhorses and Setlists..are one of IORR many Warhorse threads..yea'..

okay for starters lets dump Satisfaction and slot in Sweet Neocon for thee grand finale...encore...thingo.....



ROCKMAN

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Stoneage
Has anyone ever asked Mick or Keith why they still do so many warhorses? And why they (the warhorses) sound the same from concert to concert? Through the years I have a developed an allergy against them. Am I the only one? If there will be a new tour: Do you think half (or more) of the setlists will consist of warhorses this time around too?

I may be wrong, but I don't think you're the only one...

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Justin
Laziness + mistrusting the audience = warhorse-filled setlists.

Which is the same thing almost every other major act does.

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sweetcharmedlife

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Justin
Laziness + mistrusting the audience = warhorse-filled setlists.

Which is the same thing almost every other major act does.

The Who I'll give you, but I can think of plenty who dont. Especially acts of a similar vintage.

Yeah Stoneage...the closest it was discussed was when Keith said during the Licks tour that he prefers to take risks in the setlist..change it up...but it ultimately depends on the singer to choose the songs..."gotta make him happy." Mick has had a stock answer he throws out when asked about song choices saying they like to change it up every night...it's never the same show each night...you have to challenge the band and the audience. We usually hear this crap in all the interviews before a tour starts.

Still though, the warhorse issue is probably a significant elephant in the room in the band. Keith says he wants to take risks, but it's VERY clear that he can't be bothered to sit down and learn/re-learn a new song. He'll do the bare minimum and noodle through it on stage. If he truely wanted to put more obscurer songs in the mix--he would do his homework, buckle down and know his parts.

You couple this with Mick having absolutely no faith in the audience to appreciate a song like "She's A Rainbow" and instead constantly spoon feeding us easy hits...well, that's where we are today.

Ronnie and Charlie could care less what's played. Ronnie is the only one who does his homework and actually tries to replay the original parts. With Blondie on guitar laying down the rhythm, Keith just needs to know they key of the song and he's cool with the noodling.

Mick gives his BS answers like I wrote above, the first few shows may have a few obscure ones here and there and then they're all gone by the middle of the tour. Just like a New Year's Resolution, they start out with good intentions and then give up...

In the end, I believe the setlists each night is enough of an official comment from Mick and Keith on the subject.

Yes i am totally allergic to warhorses, for godsake man play your new songs aternating with gems hardly played ever like; Mother's Little Helper, King Bee, Down Home Girl, Lady Jane. It's not that people will complain if you don't play warhorses, the song that overwelmed everyone in the last decade live was Can't You Hear Me Knocking, not particulairly a warhorse now is it?, but everyone just loved it whether they had heard it before or not (which counted for most people). Look, for the 69 US tour they had released Through the Past to promote that tour because Bleed wasn't released untill the end of that tour, yet they didn't play Paint It Black, Spend the Night Together or Have You Seen Your Mother instead they played Midnight Rambler, Gimme Shelter, Love In Vain, songs no one had heard yet and for the rest mainly Beggars stuff, all albumtracks NOT hits, yet the 69 US tour is undoubtaly the most legendary. So i say mainly new songs and a few rarities. According to Ronnie the Stones are the most seen people alive, so everybody has allready seen and heard them play those warhorses at least once in their lives, no need to do that again.

Guess what regular fans (not hardcores like us) want to hear when they buy a ticket to the Stones. Oh yeah, Brown Sugar, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash etc. The songs they know and love from the radio and the Stones compilations.
It's supply and demand people, fans want to see the hits and who are the Stones to deny them that? Especially at the prices of the tickets!!!

People talk about challenging the audience and Mick underestimating them but really this is just hardcore fans wishing to hear more obscure songs live. But in all honesty, are fans going to react to say, Time Waits For No One in the way that they do to Start Me Up? No they aren't.

I get that people want to hear their favourites that casual fans don't know very much but hey only represent a small minority of the audience. Question their artistic integrity, but the fans now are different than they were in the past and they go to a concert for a good time, a night out and to see a show. Add intothe fact that people expect each tour to be the last, then if it's the last time they ever see the Stones, they'll wanna hear Brown Sugar.

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Gazza

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sweetcharmedlife

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Justin
Laziness + mistrusting the audience = warhorse-filled setlists.

Which is the same thing almost every other major act does.

The Who I'll give you, but I can think of plenty who dont. Especially acts of a similar vintage.

Well their's The Eagles,Fleetwood Mac,Aerosmith,Tom Petty just off the top of my head. Any big ticket act feels trapped by the same formula.

Because they have a business model which is based on filling stadiums. THAT means most of the people who go are going to see "legends", which means warhorses - big hits. 90% of the people in stadiums couldn't care about hearing songs like Coming Down Again or She's A Rainbow. They even use Keith's set as a bathroom/beer break. You want stadiums? You get warhorses. This is not going to change.

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SoulPlunderer
Guess what regular fans (not hardcores like us) want to hear when they buy a ticket to the Stones. Oh yeah, Brown Sugar, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash etc. The songs they know and love from the radio and the Stones compilations.
It's supply and demand people, fans want to see the hits and who are the Stones to deny them that? Especially at the prices of the tickets!!!

People talk about challenging the audience and Mick underestimating them but really this is just hardcore fans wishing to hear more obscure songs live. But in all honesty, are fans going to react to say, Time Waits For No One in the way that they do to Start Me Up? No they aren't.

I get that people want to hear their favourites that casual fans don't know very much but hey only represent a small minority of the audience. Question their artistic integrity, but the fans now are different than they were in the past and they go to a concert for a good time, a night out and to see a show. Add intothe fact that people expect each tour to be the last, then if it's the last time they ever see the Stones, they'll wanna hear Brown Sugar.

They can still play Brown Sugar, JJF, Satisfaction, STU and HTW. Casual fans can at least hear these 5 tunes and walk away happy. That leaves at least 10-12 other vacant spots for other songs. But what do they do? Fill it up with second tier warhorses: IORR, YGMR, YCAGWYW, Sympathy and on and on and on. Every damn album contains at least 1 warhorse on it. So chances of fans having the albums, and listening to them the whole way through are very high. So why not include "Time Waits For No One"" Surely, they would connect the dots and go "Oh that's that song with "It's Only Rock and Roll" that's a cool song!

Close to 50 years later and we still assume that fans only know the 40 Licks stuff?? And if they don't...God forbid...could it be possible that they might enjoy what they hear? I"ve been to countless concerts where I heard an unknown song and said "What is that song?? Where can I find it??" And bam made me love the artist more. Hell, to some fans a song like "You Got Me Rockin" could be an unknown song...so why not switch that song for another lesser known song?

U2 have recently been playing unreleased obscure songs such as "Mercy", "Glastonbury" and "Every Breaking Wave" - and they all were very much welcomed by the fans. The Stones surely could achieve an audience response like this, too. But I can understand it if they do not want to spoon-feed the bootleggers.
Yet, they could play some unbelievably great songs that they haven't done in years (or decades).

Knowing they only play "warhorses", I'll stay at home listening to the new album, because they probably won't play more than 3 songs from it anyway. Sorry guys, but it's mostly the new songs, a/k/a tunes from since Steel Wheels that I care about.

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Justin
Close to 50 years later and we still assume that fans only know the 40 Licks stuff?? And if they don't...God forbid...could it be possible that they might enjoy what they hear? I"ve been to countless concerts where I heard an unknown song and said "What is that song?? Where can I find it??" And bam made me love the artist more. Hell, to some fans a song like "You Got Me Rockin" could be an unknown song...so why not switch that song for another lesser known song?

bingo. please pick up your cash award at the exit, justin.

been saying that for years - who the hell says you have to know a song to like a song!????

What is STU?

Start The Ulcers?

I meant, SMU...Start Me Up.


Yeah StonesTod, I first heard "Things Have Changed" at a Dylan show and was like "ohhh man what was that?"

What is STU?

A truely amazing top-class book about Ian Stewart ...........



ROCKMAN

Ha ha. I was leaning towards Start Me Up but one doesn't always know...DO THEY Mickscarey!!?? Mickscarey...are you reading this?

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Rockman
What is STU?

A truely amazing top-class book about Ian Stewart ...........

Somehow I don't think Keith ever showed Stu the blade. Stu waould have said "put that thing away, you little shower of shit!".

Justin: So you mean keith is the weak link? He can't bother with different arrangements and only likes to "noodle" through the songs. Sadly, your probably right. Bob Dylan at least tries different arrangements on the songs from time to time (not always brilliant, but different at least). I'm getting to the point that I would accept medleys of warhorses - just to mix it up! I mean the "tourists" in the public (obviously they are 90 %...) wouldn't hear the difference anyway!

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Justin

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SoulPlunderer
Guess what regular fans (not hardcores like us) want to hear when they buy a ticket to the Stones. Oh yeah, Brown Sugar, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash etc. The songs they know and love from the radio and the Stones compilations.
It's supply and demand people, fans want to see the hits and who are the Stones to deny them that? Especially at the prices of the tickets!!!

People talk about challenging the audience and Mick underestimating them but really this is just hardcore fans wishing to hear more obscure songs live. But in all honesty, are fans going to react to say, Time Waits For No One in the way that they do to Start Me Up? No they aren't.

I get that people want to hear their favourites that casual fans don't know very much but hey only represent a small minority of the audience. Question their artistic integrity, but the fans now are different than they were in the past and they go to a concert for a good time, a night out and to see a show. Add intothe fact that people expect each tour to be the last, then if it's the last time they ever see the Stones, they'll wanna hear Brown Sugar.

They can still play Brown Sugar, JJF, Satisfaction, STU and HTW. Casual fans can at least hear these 5 tunes and walk away happy. That leaves at least 10-12 other vacant spots for other songs. But what do they do? Fill it up with second tier warhorses: IORR, YGMR, YCAGWYW, Sympathy and on and on and on. Every damn album contains at least 1 warhorse on it. So chances of fans having the albums, and listening to them the whole way through are very high. So why not include "Time Waits For No One"" Surely, they would connect the dots and go "Oh that's that song with "It's Only Rock and Roll" that's a cool song!

Close to 50 years later and we still assume that fans only know the 40 Licks stuff?? And if they don't...God forbid...could it be possible that they might enjoy what they hear? I"ve been to countless concerts where I heard an unknown song and said "What is that song?? Where can I find it??" And bam made me love the artist more. Hell, to some fans a song like "You Got Me Rockin" could be an unknown song...so why not switch that song for another lesser known song?

Unique band. 250 million records sold in 50 years, and the 6 million people who see them every tour only know and can only enjoy songs that were on a 2002 compilation. Otherwise they'll walk out.

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Stoneage
Justin: So you mean keith is the weak link? He can't bother with different arrangements and only likes to "noodle" through the songs. Sadly, your probably right. Bob Dylan at least tries different arrangements on the songs from time to time (not always brilliant, but different at least). I'm getting to the point that I would accept medleys of warhorses - just to mix it up! I mean the "tourists" in the public (obviously they are 90 %...) wouldn't hear the difference anyway!

To me, Stoneage, because Keith is such a HUGE "link" in the band, it only makes it easy to say that today, he could possibly be the "weakest" link. But the fact that Keith has abdicated his role as band leader to Chuck--says it all.

I used to wonder why so many warhorses everytime when there's so many great songs...then I saw a poll in Martin Elliotts book 'The complete recording sessions '62 - '02'. The only albums that get a look in are B.Banquet, Let it Bleed, Exile & Sticky Fingers and in the individual song catorgories the songs (give or take only one or two others) the songs off those albums......Then I looked on Kenos' Rolling Stones website who has been running polls for years and it's exactly the same....with Sympathy consistently being voted No.1.....Mick obviously takes those into account when drawing up the setlists...tentatively trying the odd 'new' song like 'She was Hot' on occaision. Personlly I'd love a show to start with a medley of Sympathy><Too much blood with 'Winter', 'Til the next Time' in there and a 12 minute version of 'Hey Negrita'----a long dance out with 'Dance Little Sister' (Revamped with loads of backing from Lisa) but what do I know, in the polls Negrita and Too much blood and 'Dance Little Sister' are nowhere...EddieByword.......Maybe some one who has more technical knowhow than me could set up a poll on IORR and maybe if it's strong enough us non-warhorse merchants could perhaps influence next years setlists.....? ( I re- named the last tour the 'Oh no, not Tumbling Dice again' tour......................

Tried before, mate. Didnt work.

I understand the warhorses. What I don't get is pieces of utter crap like "You Got Me Rocking" making appearances in tour after tour.

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Gazza

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Justin

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SoulPlunderer
Guess what regular fans (not hardcores like us) want to hear when they buy a ticket to the Stones. Oh yeah, Brown Sugar, Satisfaction, Jumping Jack Flash etc. The songs they know and love from the radio and the Stones compilations.
It's supply and demand people, fans want to see the hits and who are the Stones to deny them that? Especially at the prices of the tickets!!!

People talk about challenging the audience and Mick underestimating them but really this is just hardcore fans wishing to hear more obscure songs live. But in all honesty, are fans going to react to say, Time Waits For No One in the way that they do to Start Me Up? No they aren't.

I get that people want to hear their favourites that casual fans don't know very much but hey only represent a small minority of the audience. Question their artistic integrity, but the fans now are different than they were in the past and they go to a concert for a good time, a night out and to see a show. Add intothe fact that people expect each tour to be the last, then if it's the last time they ever see the Stones, they'll wanna hear Brown Sugar.

They can still play Brown Sugar, JJF, Satisfaction, STU and HTW. Casual fans can at least hear these 5 tunes and walk away happy. That leaves at least 10-12 other vacant spots for other songs. But what do they do? Fill it up with second tier warhorses: IORR, YGMR, YCAGWYW, Sympathy and on and on and on. Every damn album contains at least 1 warhorse on it. So chances of fans having the albums, and listening to them the whole way through are very high. So why not include "Time Waits For No One"" Surely, they would connect the dots and go "Oh that's that song with "It's Only Rock and Roll" that's a cool song!

Close to 50 years later and we still assume that fans only know the 40 Licks stuff?? And if they don't...God forbid...could it be possible that they might enjoy what they hear? I"ve been to countless concerts where I heard an unknown song and said "What is that song?? Where can I find it??" And bam made me love the artist more. Hell, to some fans a song like "You Got Me Rockin" could be an unknown song...so why not switch that song for another lesser known song?

Unique band. 250 million records sold in 50 years, and the 6 million people who see them every tour only know and can only enjoy songs that were on a 2002 compilation. Otherwise they'll walk out.

If there was ever an example to follow, it was the "No Security" tour. A tour strictly based on deeper cuts, displaying how a show can survive without "Satisfaction" in the set. Still though, the 2nd half of the show was warhorse heavy.

Sadly, they can't do this kind of show in a football stadium. Additionally, NS worked so well because it was a "tag-on" tour after an incredibly huge and mostly greatest hits tour anyway.

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sweetcharmedlife

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Gazza

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sweetcharmedlife

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Justin
Laziness + mistrusting the audience = warhorse-filled setlists.

Which is the same thing almost every other major act does.

The Who I'll give you, but I can think of plenty who dont. Especially acts of a similar vintage.

Well their's The Eagles,Fleetwood Mac,Aerosmith,Tom Petty just off the top of my head. Any big ticket act feels trapped by the same formula.

The Eagles regularly played 8-10 songs a night from their new "Long Road out of Eden" release when it came out a couple of years ago, plus a lot of solo stuff to mix things up.

Last time Fleetwood Mac had a new release ("Say You Will" - 2003), they played 8 songs a night from it for virtually their entire 2003-04 tour...including closing the show with a new song. Elton John frequently plays a bunch of his new songs when he has a new release, and rotates a lot of his warhorses, alternating them with great album tracks...check out his recent performances with Leon Russell...they're doing the entire new album. Then, of course, there's U2, Bruce and Neil Young -- always playing new stuff and mixing things up. Having been an attendee of many of these shows and tours, the audience doesn't really seem to mind...in fact, I'd say everyone was having a pretty good time!

You're right about Aerosmith and Petty...Petty really disappoints me because he's got such a great catalog to draw from. As for the Stones, it's a bit too late for them to change the formula...they've put themselves in the position they're in, setlist-wise, and the audience expects to hear the same old stuff. The last twenty years could have been different, but they made their choice.

Anyhow...it's not a given for the old acts to just phone it in with the familiar hits...some of them are still trying out there, and, for the most part, their audiences enjoy the challenge. I know I do!