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Squiggle

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sjs12
One thing that really gets me about this story: Everyone is always lining up to complain about Jagger/Richards taking all the credit for this song.

However, it wasn't really them. What they forget is that it is Klien who takes the money. Ashcroft must know this yet he still complains about this whole Jagger Richards thing.

A public disavowal would have done wonders. Instead we get Keith saying things like, "I'm out of whack here, this is serious lawyer shit. If The Verve can write a better song, they can keep the money". Using this logic, you could argue that all that's keeping The Last Time from being being credited to Traditional (for the chorus)/Brian Jones (for the guitar hook) is a good lawyer.

Yeah, hiding behind lawyer's back - and knowing those being caliber of Allen Klein - is not very heroish. My interpretation is that Mick and Keith were 100% together with Klein in this one (their approval - that is: not say anything against him). They smelled the money. In best scenario - for Mick and Keith - hey gave a "new boy" a lesson of the nature of the business. My sympathy goes to Mr. Ascroft. Yeah, he borrowed more than he should have but they gave him too hard time for that. .

Anyway, the Stones - Mick and Keith - were the biggest losers in imagewise. A real 'nice' sign of their greediness and assholeness to the late 90's young rock crowd scene that were going for bands like The Oasis and The Verve. Goes very well with their following ticket policy for not recognizing any longer the existence of 'not so or yet wealthy' generations. And people ask why the term Stones does not resonate well at all among under 40 years old folks...

In a hindsight, the "Bittersweet Symphony" case could have been a great situation for Mick and Keith to show some dignity and loyality to younger musicians and like an act of passing the torch but shit no. Only money matters. Yeah, it was only one individual case but as itself it is a kind of logical example of teh general rule that they are here only for the money. But now the "Bitterwseet Symphony" will haunt them forever, and Ascraft's great insight of it being the best Jagger/Richards song for twenty years will be remembered. As it was at the time.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-28 20:52 by Doxa.

Bittersweet Symphony wasn't the first time that ABKCO claimed copyright for a song. They also nailed Carter The Unstoppable Sex Machine's "After The Watershed (Early Learning The Hard Way)" in 1991 for daring to quote the words "Goodbye Ruby Tuesday".
The credits for this song now read Morrison/Carter/Jagger/Richards with publishing by Island Music/Abkco Music/Westminster Songs. The song was about child abuse and made number 11 in the UK charts.





"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-29 12:49 by Deltics.

Great post, Doxa. Agreed 100%

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Squiggle
A public disavowal would have done wonders. Instead we get Keith saying things like, "I'm out of whack here, this is serious lawyer shit. If The Verve can write a better song, they can keep the money". Using this logic, you could argue that all that's keeping The Last Time from being being credited to Traditional (for the chorus)/Brian Jones (for the guitar hook) is a good lawyer.

Excellent point. Some of that money should certainly go to the Brian Jones estate. The world, however, is not a fair place . . .

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Doxa
Ascraft's great insight of it being the best Jagger/Richards song for twenty years will be remembered. As it was at the time.

Was not!

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FreeBird

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Doxa
Ascraft's great insight of it being the best Jagger/Richards song for twenty years will be remembered. As it was at the time.

Was not!

Correct. Since TATTOO YOU he should have said (that is 16-17 years?)

- Doxa

Here's the best version of the issue:

one of the best songs of the last 20 years. the law issue is ridiculous and doesnt make mick and keith look really cool. in fact it's rather embarrassing!! it's an ashcraft song. DIG IT! and by far better than any stones output since undercover!
100 % agree with doxa on this!

The lyrics and the jumping string motif are the only 2 original ideas by the Verve, the rest is all on the ALO Last Time.

The lyrics being written to an already existing melody as found on the ALO Last Time, which is essentially a slowed down version of the stones own recording.

Regardless The Last Time and Bittersweet Symphony are both great songs!

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His Majesty
The lyrics being written to an already existing melody as found on the ALO Last Time, which is essentially a slowed down version of the stones own recording.

!

Technically - and theoretically - that is true but one can somehow grasp the the melody line of "Bittersweet Symphony" to be based on "The Last time" via two mediate major steps:

(1) The interpretation of the Stones song by ALO's Orchestra arrangement. There is a lot of interpretion going alraedy there - technically the arranger might deserve a credit in "objective","fair" world. "Essentially slowed down" versions sound a bit anachronism into my ears; I hear more essentially going on.

(2) Ashcraft's interpretation of the "Last Time" melody theme based on ALO's Orchestra version of the song. Ashcraft is also quite free in his interpretaion.

So the point and moral: if The Verve never had used the sample of ALO track as the base (and a clear hint) of the released version of "Bittersweet Symphony", and just, say, played it acoustic - as Ashcraft does somewhere - the guy who have claimed discovering the melody of "Bittersweet Symphny" to be a copy or even based on to the Stones' "The Last Time" would have been simply a liar.

But like said, technically and theoretically this can be proven right in hindsight but only by greedy @#$%&. Anyway, I wouldn't be sure if Klein's case would have hold in court - that they would take 100% of royalties and total ownership of the song - but I think the case was more that of threating to postpone the supposed release of the record (in the last minute). A young band didn't have afford for that, and they gave up freeingly (and just wanted the hottest song of an era out by any cost). A typical Kleinian move I guess.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-29 10:42 by Doxa.

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Lynd8
Here's the best version of the issue:

Hey ! Thanks a lot !



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

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Doxa
A typical Kleinian move I guess.

- Doxa

The tracks share a lot musically, but yes it's all legal bollocks. Most would just have wanted credit for the actual sample used, but not Mr Klein.

The stones should feel happy that they inspired, with some borrowing just like they have done, someone to come up with something so good.

Yeah, exactly. But if I were Mick Jagger or Keith Richards with some kind of conscience or sense of justice, I wouldn't be too proud for claiming to have composed 100% of the following song:

(But anyway, it was the best charted Jagger/Richards song since "Start Me Up", and among others - copy and paste from WIKI: Rolling Stone ranked "Bitter Sweet Symphony" as the 382nd best song of all time.[1] In May 2007, NME magazine placed "Bitter Sweet Symphony" at number 18 in its list of the "50 Greatest Indie Anthems Ever".[2] In September 2007, a poll of 50 songwriters published in Q magazine placed "Bitter Sweet Symphony" in a list of the "Top 10 Greatest Tracks".In the Triple J Hottest 100 of All Time, 2009 (an online music poll conducted by the Australian radio station Triple J) the track was voted the 14th best song of all time. Pitchfork Media's included the song at number 29 on their Top 200 Tracks of the 90s. And we haven't even yet know how much they got it from using it in commercials, such as Nike's and Opel's (until the Verve were able to stop further use of the song by employing the European legal concept of moral rights; Ascroft also dedicated the song to Mick Jagger and Keith Richards during a gig at the Sage Gateshead in Gateshead. After several audience members booed, Ashcroft exclaimed, "Don't boo, man. As long as I can play this song I'm happy to pay a few of those guys' bills." Anyway, he also said: "Despite all the legal angles and the bullshit, strip down to the chords and the lyrics and the melody and you realise there is such a good song there."

I agree wih the guy. And Keef, my hero, "you can have the money, pal")







- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-09-29 11:18 by Doxa.

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His Majesty


The stones should feel happy that they inspired, with some borrowing just like they have done, someone to come up with something so good.

Thing is, Jagger and Richards - to my knowledge - had no involvement with the orchestrated version of 'The Last Time'. So, I don't see how 'inspired' can come into it on their part.

Anyway, how many of the thousands-upon-thousands who adore 'Bittersweet Symphony' is actually aware that it samples an incredibly obscure Stones-related instrumental? Probably only the Abcko lawyers and the handful discussing it here.

IMO, Jagger and Richards should’ve interjected and helped The Verve out. They should’ve leant their support. As Doxa has pointed out earlier: it’s the Stones who came out of this mess badly.

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Big Al
Thing is, Jagger and Richards - to my knowledge - had no involvement with the orchestrated version of 'The Last Time'. So, I don't see how 'inspired' can come into it on their part.

Anyway, how many of the thousands-upon-thousands who adore 'Bittersweet Symphony' is actually aware that it samples an incredibly obscure Stones-related instrumental? Probably only the Abcko lawyers and the handful discussing it here.

IMO, Jagger and Richards should’ve interjected and helped The Verve out. They should’ve leant their support. As Doxa has pointed out earlier: it’s the Stones who came out of this mess badly.

I agree .
I like the acoustic Ashcroft's version that Doxa posted.
To be honest,I even didn't know that so many bands made a cover version of this one .

They played the song after the shows in Europe 1999 over the PA.
Maybe the Stones camp wanted to show something.

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TooTough
They played the song after the shows in Europe 1999 over the PA.
Maybe the Stones camp wanted to show something.

What is PA,TooTough ?



I am a Frenchie ,as Mick affectionately called them in the Old Grey Whistle Test in 1977 .

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SwayStones
What is PA,TooTough ?

Public Anouncement System