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bustedtrousers

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DandelionPowderman
That's the usual B-stage trouble. Sounds horrible. Lose the B-stage!

Yeah, that's what the problem was in that HTW clip. It had nothing at all to do with Keith's playing, it was just crappy sound, and getting rid of the B stage will solve everything. Right.

Look, we can debate this forever, but all you have to do is take a look at that video (and there's many others too), listen to the tapes of shows, and the eyewitness accounts of audience members from the past few years. Something is up with Keith's playing ability. Even at his junked out worst in 75, he didn't f-uck up like that.

After all he has been through, and put himself through, at least some of his ability is gone, at least his ability to be fairly consistent is, and it's likely never coming back. And like someone else said in response to his waving off Mick and Darryl's concern in that clip, it's sad.

I don't doubt that at all, but I know that HTW is a tricky one, because of the "getting sound from two places at once"-problem while the B-stage is moving back. I've seen it before.

Keith's timing on this one leads me to believe that he has problems with the sound (as well as with his playing in general). Look at his body language in the beginning there (- what the fvck is this!!&%).

It's incredible how bad things may turn out when you're not hearing properly on stage. I know that from personal experience, unfortunately.

But, hey, I've seen the Happy from Nijmegen, as well as all the other stuff. And I know something isn't right with Keith. Although I've seen him do good shows on the BB-tour in 2007 as well.

Even without being able to hear his playing one would think Keith could play that with his eyes closed yet alone in his sleep, ESPECIALLY if he's actually LOOKING at his guitar. Watch that SFTD Miami PPV clip and you can see that while he obviously can't hear what he's doing it's glaringly obvious he's not paying attention to his playing at all, even though he's doing what he would normally do in the correct key. Hence, maybe one should look at your frets when you can't hear.

Anyone suffering from severe arthritis ( I have it and I am a young 50) knows how painful it is to live with. The bulges in the joints associated with severe rheumatoid arthritis,is not only extremely painful but it also restricts the mobility and usage of the appendage(s).

Any naysayers that indicate KR's artritis hasn't affected his playing doesn't have a clue. If you had it in your hip joints, I don't see you running a pain free race effectively with any success at all. You would collapse at the starting line and cry for your mother.

Age has caught up to Keith as it does to all of us one way or another.

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Dali

In the beginning he missed the right intro and during the solo he slipped into the wrong key. Very strange performance, though HTW is a song he did thousand times, on every tour since '69. Actually he should do it automatically. Thanks for this interesting post. In 2006 I saw him in Düsseldorf, Germany, doing TD. He played a lousy outro in a wrong key, too, laying on his right side on the floor of the stage (!). I thought he would collapse this time ...

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Midnight Toker
Anyone suffering from severe arthritis ( I have it and I am a young 50) knows how painful it is to live with. The bulges in the joints associated with severe rheumatoid arthritis,is not only extremely painful but it also restricts the mobility and usage of the appendage(s).

Any naysayers that indicate KR's artritis hasn't affected his playing doesn't have a clue. If you had it in your hip joints, I don't see you running a pain free race effectively with any success at all. You would collapse at the starting line and cry for your mother.

Age has caught up to Keith as it does to all of us one way or another.

I have the same thing Keith does, Heberden's nodes, just not nearly as bad. It hurts and makes playing very difficult but lately has settled down and isn't nearly as painful. Somehow, magically, I have managed to never slip out of key. Not saying it doesn't influence his playing, just that it doesn't influence being in the wrong key. Something that was clearly stated. I could see a new song going haywire key wise maybe but not something he's been playing since 1969.

[www.medicinenet.com]

Playing HTW shouldn't be that difficult even with arthritis. The initial chords you don't use the fingers that much. Other songs require much more.

So, we'll conclude with medical and sonic confusion? We'll explain the solos with Herberden's nodes...

HTW was botched ,but I don't blame arthritis on that one. My view is that KR's playing has been affected by arthritis not withstanding whatever medication he is on and how much he has had to drink. His playing is akin to his interviews. In one interview we hear a polite charismatic down to earth English gent that we can all understand as to the works he speaks. The other Keith, is the one that sounds like he just woke up with a mouthful of mushy corn flakes that were soaking in Vodka before breakfast. Ya get my drift?

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Midnight Toker
HTW was botched ,but I don't blame arthritis on that one. My view is that KR's playing has been affected by arthritis not withstanding whatever medication he is on and how much he has had to drink. His playing is akin to his interviews. In one interview we hear a polite charismatic down to earth English gent that we can all understand as to the works he speaks. The other Keith, is the one that sounds like he just woke up with a mouthful of mushy corn flakes that were soaking in Vodka before breakfast. Ya get my drift?

Exactly. It's his consistency that seems to have really taken a hit. Like anyone, he's always had off nights, but sometimes now there seems to be more to it than just being a bit too drunk, high, or worn out from the road.

A lot of people likely haven't been around a long-term heavy drinker, and I think with Keith we tend to forget how that goes. When your young and you first start drinking, a lot of people build up a tolerance and get to where they can consume larger and larger amounts and still function. But eventually you come down the other side of the mountain and the opposite can begin to happen.

I've known heavy drinkers who end up getting to where they have just a couple of drinks and they become really loopy, different in a way than just being drunk. If they keep going, they end up not being able to function. And it can happen quickly, within just a few drinks, whereas a few years earlier they could drink all night and still be ok.

They get to where it only takes a drink to put them back where they left off the day before. Keith has said in at least one interview that he is poly-toxic, and exists in a nether world where he is never really completely drunk or sober, and it only takes a drink or two to get him drunk.

Well then that was one hell of an off night!

Wasn't the coconut tree fall/head injury just a story to cover for the more obvious and likely fact that Keith had a mild stroke?

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Markdog
Wasn't the coconut tree fall/head injury just a story to cover for the more obvious and likely fact that Keith had a mild stroke?

I don't know. What a cool hypothesis though. Like some kind of mystery. No pictures, no witness accounts, nothing... I believe what happened it did some damage - a reminder that he is not a kid anymore and that some may feel mighty but the body just does not respond like the way you feel anymore. I've seen the exile on mainstreet reissue media tour and if you look closely to his interviews you can see Keith shake when he speaks, like old people shake ...on the documentary its obvious he is shaking a bit... almost 67 - age folks - there is no other explanation. Keith Richards is rusty and he is no superman. What do people really expect from him? But what a life. Can't wait to read the book. I need a shot in the arm in my life.

My take on it is not that Keith had a stroke but that he was so drunk he fell down and hit his head on a rock. Had he truly fallen out of a tree he would have been more hurt than just his head. You don't just fall out of a tree and be OK.

And Ronnie is the perfect foil for exaggerating what didn't happen!

What has changed is how much of the load Keith actually carries. I just got Live at the Max from Steel Wheels on Blue Ray and was watching it last night. What kept jumping out at me was the fact that even though in 1989/1990 there were all these extras on stage, Keith still dominated the show. It was HIS show. The amount he played was incredible, not even close to the amount he plays today. I love Keith more than anyone, but I hate to say that he is becoming one of the extras on stage (at least relative to old days when he laid down the whole gig).

"You'll be studying history and you'll be down the gym. And I'll be down the pub, probably playing pool and drinking."

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skipstone
My take on it is not that Keith had a stroke but that he was so drunk he fell down and hit his head on a rock. Had he truly fallen out of a tree he would have been more hurt than just his head. You don't just fall out of a tree and be OK.

And Ronnie is the perfect foil for exaggerating what didn't happen!

agee, you don´t operate strokes. many alcoholics fall often, they have many holes in their brains. maybe this time the hämatom was too big and therefore the need to operate him.

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Markdog
Wasn't the coconut tree fall/head injury just a story to cover for the more obvious and likely fact that Keith had a mild stroke?

Doubt he would have been performing ten weeks later had he had a stroke.

He's mentioned in interviews that after his accident that he takes Dilantin - which is an anti-epileptic seizure medication. So, its quite possible that following his surgery he may have developed some problems with seizures. If so, it might account for occasional short 'absences' (which seemed to be the case at some shows), incidents where he appeared to be over-medicated and problems with motor skills and co-ordination.

A consequence of the latter being the fact that on the last couple of legs of the tour he no longer sings and plays guitar simultaneously.

A lot of these problems can of course be temporary, so it could well be that since then he's recovered fully or stabilised with the proper medication so that it doesnt remain a significant issue.

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skipstone
My take on it is not that Keith had a stroke but that he was so drunk he fell down and hit his head on a rock. Had he truly fallen out of a tree he would have been more hurt than just his head. You don't just fall out of a tree and be OK.

And Ronnie is the perfect foil for exaggerating what didn't happen!

hmmm, wasn't Keith the very person who played down the whole incident - "It was only a small tree". I think he only fell a few feet , but that can be all it takes to kill you if you land on your head. I am not convinced there was a conspiracy over this. He is an old guy - he has done enough. More than enough. I still thought he was great last time I saw the Stones in Glasgow. Like Gazza said, its true he cant sing lead vocals and play guitar at the same time, but some people are NEVER able to do that.

The original point was he played out of key, which has nothing to do with arthritis. It's pretty obvious it was hearing issues while not paying attention to what he was doing because he started the song OK and in the right key.

But LetItLoose, what you said about him downplaying it - it's the same guy who said Muddy was painting the ceiling etc so I take it all with a grain of salt.

Besides, it's entertainment.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-30 04:20 by Loudei.

"WOW! after Mick even darryl comes over to check on Keith! He waves them away, but its really sad to see.."

When I see clips like this I wonder if the Stones really will gout again?

Really, is Jagger gonna take that risk. There's alot of money involved nowadays...

Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about.

He suffered from a subdural haematoma after his fall from the little branch, not hihg above the concrete surface of the hotel garden.
Please google SUBRURAL HAEMATOMA.
They had to drill a hole in his skull to ease the pressure on his brain. Fluid building up. He could have died during the procedure, (they gave him a 50/50 chance of a successfull operation) but some 6 weeks later he was on stage in Milan.

Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. I know for a fact he was dehydrated in Helsinki, when the Swedish scumbag tabloids wrote that he was drunk. They had no idea what was going on.

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Addicted
Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about.

He suffered from a subdural haematoma after his fall from the little branch, not hihg above the concrete surface of the hotel garden.
Please google SUBRURAL HAEMATOMA.
They had to drill a hole in his skull to ease the pressure on his brain. Fluid building up. He could have died during the procedure, (they gave him a 50/50 chance of a successfull operation) but some 6 weeks later he was on stage in Milan.

Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. I know for a fact he was dehydrated in Helsinki, when the Swedish scumbag tabloids wrote that he was drunk. They had no idea what was going on.

<<< Please google SUBRURAL HAEMATOMA >>>

You actually mean SUBDURAL ... dontcha ?

[ I want to shout, but I can hardly speak ]

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Addicted
Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about..

If you're including me in that sweeping generalisation, trust me, I do know what I'm talking about. Never claimed to 'know' what Keith's probems are, though.

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Addicted
Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. .

Doesnt this make you an 'online doctor' too?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-30 16:36 by Gazza.

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paulywaul

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Addicted
Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about.

He suffered from a subdural haematoma after his fall from the little branch, not hihg above the concrete surface of the hotel garden.
Please google SUBRURAL HAEMATOMA.
They had to drill a hole in his skull to ease the pressure on his brain. Fluid building up. He could have died during the procedure, (they gave him a 50/50 chance of a successfull operation) but some 6 weeks later he was on stage in Milan.

Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. I know for a fact he was dehydrated in Helsinki, when the Swedish scumbag tabloids wrote that he was drunk. They had no idea what was going on.

<<< Please google SUBRURAL HAEMATOMA >>>

You actually mean SUBDURAL ... dontcha ?

Yes, I do! Like I wrote in the line above my misspelling. I can blame it on my long nails... I reach too many letters trying to press the right key. Sorry. NO! I'm not going to have my nails cut... ><

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Gazza

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Addicted
Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about..

If you're including me in that sweeping generalisation, trust me, I do know what I'm talking about. Never claimed to 'know' what Keith's probems are, though.

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Addicted
Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. .

Doesnt this make you an 'online doctor' too?

Well - yes - and no. I actually do know what I'm talking about in this specific matter, Gazza. That's why I had to post what I did. There were too many far fetched theories here and - not many of them were close to the truth.

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Sipuncula
Wasn't that around the time Patti was diagnosed with cancer and he didn't think she was going to make it? Hopefully that somewhat explains it.

She got a health problem at the very end of the tour. Got the diagnosis shortly after end of tour. Then received chemo, to reduce the size of her tumor, so it could be removed surgically. Keith was not the only person who thought she was going to die. The one person who never even thought about that as a possible consequence of her illness, was Patti! She's a fighter, a strong, great lady - and she beat cancer and now we're in the same exclusive club. The cancer survivors.

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Addicted

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Gazza

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Addicted
Blimey! Should I feel safe in the company of so many on-line doctors?
Not knowing what the f*** they're talking about..

If you're including me in that sweeping generalisation, trust me, I do know what I'm talking about. Never claimed to 'know' what Keith's probems are, though.

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Addicted
Yes, he used Dilantin. It doesn't go well with other drugs or alcohol. If you don't drink enough water, and get slightly dehydrated, that can be serious, too. .

Doesnt this make you an 'online doctor' too?

Well - yes - and no. I actually do know what I'm talking about in this specific matter, Gazza. That's why I had to post what I did. There were too many far fetched theories here and - not many of them were close to the truth.

That bit I agree with.

The perceived issues with Keith’s playing in recent times have a number of causes I suspect.

The fingers will obviously compromise his playing to some extent when compared to those of the younger model …but with Keith’s playing style, probably not to any huge degree.
[I have a mate who plays with that same condition and it’s not such a big deal as the unsightly appearance would suggest.]

As other folks have alluded, Keith’s “bump on the head” is also perhaps a factor.
I don’t think he was fully recovered from the various affects of that little adventure when the ABB tour resumed. It may be that forced or voluntary changes in his “normal” substance and alcohol consumption have also taken some getting used to.
[There was obviously great pressure to return as quickly as possible and I suspect Keith’s typical inclination would be to get back as soon as the medics would sign him off. Frustratingly he seemed to be looking and moving a lot better at the time the tour ended with the o2 shows.]

That said, I think the fingers and the head injury have both conspired in recent times to focus more attention on aspects of Keith’s playing that aren’t exactly new ! …and I don’t believe his fingers and/or noggin are the main issues.

Keith has always had the capacity to produce an absolute train wreck when his spontaneous meanderings don’t come off.

He sometimes seems to think that The Rolling Stones are some kind of “freeform” Jazz band and that he can play whatever he likes, whenever he likes.

And then there’s the posing, the mucking about and the frequent “Elizabethan progress” around the outer provinces of the stage which constitutes his sovereign territory…noodling aimlessly as he nods and grins to the assembled masses during what is supposed to be his guitar solo.

…all of which amounts to not paying attention to what he’s primarily supposed to be doing !

Both Keith and Ronnie could benefit from re-examining the balance between musicianship and showmanship…which has perhaps drifted a bit outside factory tolerance over recent years.

Could Keith produce a more consistent and technically correct playing performance if he wanted ?

I’m sure he could…

…If he chose to.

I’d like him to make that choice…but it’s not my position to judge him ;^)

[Apart from which, many elements of his playing remain very much intact.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-08-31 14:44 by Spud.

Some of what you describe, Spud is evident as far back as AT THE MAX. There's a world of a difference between Keith's playing on the Winos tours and with the Stones for the past 21 years. The Winos, like the Barbarians before them, were alternately brilliant and sloppy, but Keith was always fully engaged. The Stones onstage since 1989 now have two front men.

Keith's playing appears inhibited by the tight arrangements cued to lighting and sidemen's contributions. He needs space to live inside the music. He used to do that with the Stones, he did it consistently with the Winos. Keith and Ronnie's role since 1989 has been reduced to coloring much of the time with carefully truncated space for a generic solo here and there.

It is only Mick who is still free, as front man, to deviate where he chooses. I don't think I've seen a single show since 1989 where Mick doesn't produce panic in the back-up singers with a change in verse or timing or even a simple tongue-tied mistake. You used to see that in the band's musical performances as the rest of the band tried to adjust to whatever Keith was playing (just as they used to with what Taylor was playing).

The last time that dynamic can be heard was 1982. The two early eighties tours still had musical freedom. Both Ernie Watts and Gene Barge were allowed to solo with the same freedom Keith (or when he was present, Taylor) enjoyed. I'm not ignoring Ronnie, but he never enjoyed the same musical freedom that Taylor had in the band's performances.

That's gone now because you could never have the tight arrangements, lighting, effects, etc. if that sort of freedom still existed. For me, the Stones lost some of their magic with that. I actually enjoyed it during the SW/UJ tours. I was disappointed when it became the norm for their concert performance thereafter. The sterility of strict arrangements contributed to why VOODOO LOUNGE is the last time they tried to make an album as a band as opposed to overdubbing parts quickly to give truth to the lie to what have become solo recordings masquerading as band efforts. That's not to say there haven't been excellent songs since VOODOO LOUNGE (I remain a devoted fan of BRIDGES TO BABYLON in particular), but it's not really The Rolling Stones any more. For me, the loss of spontaneity is a greater factor than even the departure of Bill Wyman.

i have no idea to what extent (if any) his injury has been responsible for any further erosion or degradation of keith's skills - but it was clear to me (and anyone paying attention) that the precipitous decline was first noted at the beginning of the Licks tour, which predated his injury by a number of years. the difference between Keith's playing prowess in 1999 vs. 2002 was VERY dramatic.