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Doxa

You are right, but let's put this to perspective. Are there any person in the world to come to the Rolling Stones recording session and say to Keith Richards: "no, that's utter crap. We need better guitar contribution - and player - here"... If the person would have balls, he would have no heart to say it... a figure like Keith Richards is beyond the normal criteria of us mortals.

The band is fukked if that is now an acceptable standard of playing.

It always amazes me when it comes to Taylor this board is on fire. Like him or not

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Amsterdamned
It always amazes me when it comes to Taylor this board is on fire. Like him or not

I think the bonus cuts without him have highlighted to me how important he was to the sound of that era.

I don't think that much of what he played on most of PMS(much better than Keith's new lead though!), but towards the end when he goes higher up the fretboard he plays a fluid melodic run that is distinctively early 70's era Taylor in flavour.

In that moment the gap between backing and the vocal/lead guitar overdubs disappear.

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His Majesty

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Amsterdamned
It always amazes me when it comes to Taylor this board is on fire. Like him or not

I think the bonus cuts without him have highlighted to me how important he was to the sound of that era.

I don't think that much of what he played on most of PMS(much better than Keith's new lead though!), but towards the end when he goes higher up the fretboard he plays a fluid melodic run that is distinctively early 70's era Taylor in flavour.

In that moment the gap between backing and the vocal/lead guitar overdubs disappear.

<I think the bonus cuts without him have highlighted to me how important he was to the sound of that era.>

Yep,he was the Pied Piper in that era and he gave the audience red ears with all these goose bumping melodic/harmonic ideas,also in the studio...

The first second Taylor played on PMS I thought: yes,that's what I missed for 35 years. He played great there,imo. Maybe Jagger was too greedy to pay him for more than half an hour..

........or perhaps it was experiment to see how it would go.

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Rip This
........or perhaps it was experiment to see how it would go.

And what's your opinion?

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jamesjagger
He will be defenitely involved in the upcoming new Rolling Stones album. Belive me guys...

Well, seeing that part of that comes out on Tuesday, you are correct.

Mick and Mick: the secret love affair of The Rolling Stones - not much talked aloud. But some quotes:

I think he had a big contribution. He made it very musical. He was a very fluent, melodic player, which we never had, and we don’t have now. Neither Keith nor [Ronnie Wood] plays that kind of style. It was very good for me working with him. Charlie and I were talking about this the other day, because we could sit down – I could sit down – with Mick Taylor, and he would play very fluid lines against my vocals. He was exciting, and he was very pretty, and it gave me something to follow, to bang off. Some people think that’s the best version of the band that existed. - Mick Jagger, 1995

He made up a vocal to fit the backing track, then called me in to do some guitar parts. It turned out wonderful. It was nice to see Mick again. It was easy for me to get into that frame of mind where I was playing rock 'n' roll guitar behind his voice. I lead my own band now, and we're more of a blues band. We don't really touch upon the blues-rock style of music that the Stones do. So it was great to have the opportunity to express what some people would call my old style of playing. I wouldn't call it old. I'd just call it good. - Mick Taylor, 2010

Do those two quotes cohere nicley? Don't they?

But three is a crowd:

Mick Taylor wasn't good for the Stones. It was a sterile period for us 'cause there were things we had to force through. Maybe it's just me. It was a period we had to go through. Also, Mick is such a LEAD guitarist, which completely destroyed the whole concept of the Stones... - Keith Richards

So it is not a big surprise why the subject Mick taylor does arise some feelings also among the Rolling Stones fans...

- Doxa

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Mathijs

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Doxa

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skipstone
That did surprise me, NOT seeing his name on some of the other tunes.

Yeah, as far as I know Taylor was quite a loyal guy as far as sessions go - he didn't miss too many sessions or had off days - as some other guys did - by his time with the band. So him not being in any of the "original" tracks is quite odd thing - or he didn't play anything worthy to be released - that's even more odd.

- Doxa

Unless of course you take into account the real way Exile was recorded -just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote, half a dozen from Olympics and Stargroves and the rest done completely at Sunset. The Sunset sessions where basically Mick, Keith and Jimmy Miller with a bunch of sessions guys, and this is one of the reasons why Taylor and Wyman play on only half the songs, and on these songs they play a fairly minor role.

Mathijs

Hmm...I think that's an exaggeration. Just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote? According to the all the evidence (interviews, photographs, etc.), it's more like 9 backing tracks from Nellcote (half the album), fleshed out with overdubs of keyboards, horns, percussion and sometimes extra guitars at Nellcote, then taken to L.A. and completed there with vocals & more guitars. Seven pre-Nellcote Olympic tracks (some of which were overdubbed at Nellcote), one post-Nellcote Olympic track, and one Stagroves track (the other half of the album). The only thing done at Sunset was overdubs (lots of them, for sure) and mixing. As far as I can tell, Taylor is only absent from "Happy" (from Nellcote) and "Let It Loose" (from Olympic). I believe Bill Wyman played on the basic tracks for "Casino Boogie" and "Soul Survivor" but Keith replaced the bass at Nellcote while Bill was on vacation, and "Rip This Joint" and "Turd On The Run", but they replaced those bass tracks with Plummer's playing in L.A. They added Plummer to "All Down The Line", but kept Wyman's part too (just like Taylor and Plummer both play on "Just Want To See His Face"...the basic of which was cut at Olympic after the Nellcote sessions, according to Bobby Whitlock, who played the electric piano on it). However, your point is very valid...different guys arriving at different times can explain MT's absence on any of the bonus stuff that happens to be from Nellcote (like "PMS" and "Title 5", probably), plus some of it might be from the pre-Taylor Olympic days (like "Aladdin Story" for instance).

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His Majesty

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Amsterdamned
It always amazes me when it comes to Taylor this board is on fire. Like him or not

I think the bonus cuts without him have highlighted to me how important he was to the sound of that era.

I don't think that much of what he played on most of PMS(much better than Keith's new lead though!), but towards the end when he goes higher up the fretboard he plays a fluid melodic run that is distinctively early 70's era Taylor in flavour.

In that moment the gap between backing and the vocal/lead guitar overdubs disappear.

I don't know if it's actually Taylor lifting PMS to higher levels than anything heard in over a decade, or that it just was a magical period for the Stones, where anything they did was just out of this world. It's not just Taylor vs. Wood on this, but also Charlie is s drumming in way he hasn't been able to do since the early 80's, and the track just shows the importance of Wyman to the Stones. Than there's the recording of Miller, the equipment they used, and we can go on. Taylor's playing is nice on PMS, but it's fairly standard and and quite mediocre executed. Still, it just fits the music in a way that's hardly heard in music.

It must be awfully frustrating for Jagger that any odd outtake from that period is miles ahead of what the Stones have done the last 20 years. That must be painfull.

Mathijs

IT is funny. I do indeed like the sneering and weaving mashing sound of Keith and Woody on Some Girls and Emotional Rescue. There's some kind of definitive thing there, or possibly A definitive Rolling Stones sound, of the Ronnie era. I'd probably go with Exile/Soup for Mick Taylor's era and Out Of Our Heads (US)/Aftermath(US) for the Brian Jones era.

And indeed, it is two different bands, the Taylor version and the Woody version. Totally different.

Which is nice.

I certainly can't expound about the Ronnie era starting with Undercover onward because it seems Ronnie was mixed off of every album with exception to some solos he did. He hasn't been an audible band member since Tattoo You, with some exceptions here and there (Saint Of Me, Out Of Tears, You Got Me Rocking - all that slide stuff he's done).

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Mathijs

I don't know if it's actually Taylor lifting PMS to higher levels than anything heard in over a decade, or that it just was a magical period for the Stones, where anything they did was just out of this world. It's not just Taylor vs. Wood on this, but also Charlie is s drumming in way he hasn't been able to do since the early 80's, and the track just shows the importance of Wyman to the Stones. Than there's the recording of Miller, the equipment they used, and we can go on. Taylor's playing is nice on PMS, but it's fairly standard and and quite mediocre executed. Still, it just fits the music in a way that's hardly heard in music.

It must be awfully frustrating for Jagger that any odd outtake from that period is miles ahead of what the Stones have done the last 20 years. That must be painfull.

Mathijs

I agree 100%!

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-16 23:34 by Doxa.

<It must be awfully frustrating for Jagger that any odd outtake from that period is miles ahead of what the Stones have done the last 20 years. That must be painfull.>

Personally, if we start to compare, I like How Can I Stop way better than PMS

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Doxa
Mick and Mick: the secret love affair of The Rolling Stones - not much talked aloud. But some quotes:

I think he had a big contribution. He made it very musical. He was a very fluent, melodic player, which we never had, and we don’t have now. Neither Keith nor [Ronnie Wood] plays that kind of style. It was very good for me working with him. Charlie and I were talking about this the other day, because we could sit down – I could sit down – with Mick Taylor, and he would play very fluid lines against my vocals. He was exciting, and he was very pretty, and it gave me something to follow, to bang off. Some people think that’s the best version of the band that existed. - Mick Jagger, 1995

He made up a vocal to fit the backing track, then called me in to do some guitar parts. It turned out wonderful. It was nice to see Mick again. It was easy for me to get into that frame of mind where I was playing rock 'n' roll guitar behind his voice. I lead my own band now, and we're more of a blues band. We don't really touch upon the blues-rock style of music that the Stones do. So it was great to have the opportunity to express what some people would call my old style of playing. I wouldn't call it old. I'd just call it good. - Mick Taylor, 2010

Do those two quotes cohere nicley? Don't they?

But three is a crowd:

Mick Taylor wasn't good for the Stones. It was a sterile period for us 'cause there were things we had to force through. Maybe it's just me. It was a period we had to go through. Also, Mick is such a LEAD guitarist, which completely destroyed the whole concept of the Stones... - Keith Richards

So it is not a big surprise why the subject Mick taylor does arise some feelings also among the Rolling Stones fans...

- Doxa

Keith must have been a bit angry, or frustrated those days, understandably. 4 guitarplayers on Bl & BL, thus Taylor was not that insignificant, as some people bleat. But Keith did a great job almost on his own.. on let it bleed,


Keith & Mick T where a perfect pair ...

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Mathijs

Unless of course you take into account the real way Exile was recorded -just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote, half a dozen from Olympics and Stargroves and the rest done completely at Sunset. The Sunset sessions where basically Mick, Keith and Jimmy Miller with a bunch of sessions guys, and this is one of the reasons why Taylor and Wyman play on only half the songs, and on these songs they play a fairly minor role.

Mathijs

This is a strange way to paint these sessions in a certain corner. And it's not historically accurate either.
Yes, the usual suspects (MJ, KR) and producer Jimmy Miller were there when the work at Sunset Sound was done. But there were more than 3 or 4 basic tracks from Nellcote. And the only other bandmember who was present for the full finishing/mixing stage in L.A. was Taylor. Richards and Taylor were renting houses on the same street in Bel Air and both of them remember this period (around December 1971) vividly.
Obviously they would not have asked Taylor to stick around till the very end if he didn't have an important job to do.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2010-05-17 00:30 by Lightnin'.

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Doxa
Mick Taylor wasn't good for the Stones. It was a sterile period for us 'cause there were things we had to force through. Maybe it's just me. It was a period we had to go through. Also, Mick is such a LEAD guitarist, which completely destroyed the whole concept of the Stones... - Keith Richards
- Doxa

Or


For more "I'm of two minds" views, see Taylor's bio on rollingstones.com

You know, people. When I read musician quotes, I can usually keep my emotions contained and in check. But I have to admit that the new quotes from Taylor from this article in the Cleveland press report has me just wishing I could cry out to Jagger & Richards to please let Mick do more work with you guys soon-even if it's only for bonus tracks on future Deluxe Editions. My thinking is that if it was so fun for Taylor, I'd sure love for Taylor to rediscover a fire inside of him once again for his Blues Rock guitar. I'd love to see him get more recognition that he truely deserves in a public way. He's a guy whose playing shouldn't only be known to core Rolling Stones fans.

There's no way that's Keith doing the overdubs on So Divine. It's MT. This could be the highlight of the decade.

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Lightnin'

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Mathijs

Unless of course you take into account the real way Exile was recorded -just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote, half a dozen from Olympics and Stargroves and the rest done completely at Sunset. The Sunset sessions where basically Mick, Keith and Jimmy Miller with a bunch of sessions guys, and this is one of the reasons why Taylor and Wyman play on only half the songs, and on these songs they play a fairly minor role.

Mathijs

This is a strange way to paint these sessions in a certain corner. And it's not historically accurate either.
Yes, the usual suspects (MJ, KR) and producer Jimmy Miller were there when the work at Sunset Sound was done. But there were more than 3 or 4 basic tracks from Nellcote. And the only other bandmember who was present for the full finishing/mixing stage in L.A. was Taylor. Richards and Taylor were renting houses on the same street in Bel Air and both of them remember this period (around December 1971) vividly.
Obviously they would not have asked Taylor to stick around till the very end if he didn't have an important job to do.

Rocks Off: Nellcote and Sunset
Rip This Joint: Nellcote and Sunset
Shake Your Hips: Olympic and Sunset
Casino Boogie: Nellcote and Sunset
Tumbling Dice: Olympic and Sunset
Sweet Virginia: Olympic and Sunset
Torn and Frayed: Sunset
Sweet Black Angel: Stargroves and Sunset
Loving Cup: Sunset
Happy: Nellcote and Sunset
Turd on the Run: Nellcote and Sunset
Ventilator Blues: Nellcote and Sunset
I Just Want to See His Face: Sunset
Let It Loose: Sunset
All Down the Line: Olympic and Sunset
Stop Breaking Down: Olympic and Sunset
Shine a Light: Sunset
Soul Survivor: Nellcote and Sunset

So that’s:

Nellcote and Sunset: 7
Olympic and Sunset: 5
Stargroves and Sunset: 1
Sunset: 4

The recordings at Nellcote most likely only yielded very basic backing tracks of drums, and maybe a bass and a guitar. About all the layers of overdubs where done at Sunset, that’s why they spend months there. According to most stories, actual recordings at Nellcote where just a few weeks in July where basic tracks where done, and then the first three weeks of November 1971 for overdubs which where stopped due to cold weather and the threat of a French raid to the villa. The sessions at Sunset where from December 1971 through March 1972, so in total about 4 months.

Concerning the houses rented in Bel Air -that was somewhat later, during preperations for the tour in April and May 1972. However, all of the Stones where present at Sunset at some stages for overdubs or even new songs (Loving Cup for example).

Mathijs

?

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Doxa
Mick and Mick: the secret love affair of The Rolling Stones - not much talked aloud. But some quotes:

I think he had a big contribution. He made it very musical. He was a very fluent, melodic player, which we never had, and we don’t have now. Neither Keith nor [Ronnie Wood] plays that kind of style. It was very good for me working with him. Charlie and I were talking about this the other day, because we could sit down – I could sit down – with Mick Taylor, and he would play very fluid lines against my vocals. He was exciting, and he was very pretty, and it gave me something to follow, to bang off. Some people think that’s the best version of the band that existed. - Mick Jagger, 1995

He made up a vocal to fit the backing track, then called me in to do some guitar parts. It turned out wonderful. It was nice to see Mick again. It was easy for me to get into that frame of mind where I was playing rock 'n' roll guitar behind his voice. I lead my own band now, and we're more of a blues band. We don't really touch upon the blues-rock style of music that the Stones do. So it was great to have the opportunity to express what some people would call my old style of playing. I wouldn't call it old. I'd just call it good. - Mick Taylor, 2010

Do those two quotes cohere nicley? Don't they?

But three is a crowd:

Mick Taylor wasn't good for the Stones. It was a sterile period for us 'cause there were things we had to force through. Maybe it's just me. It was a period we had to go through. Also, Mick is such a LEAD guitarist, which completely destroyed the whole concept of the Stones... - Keith Richards

So it is not a big surprise why the subject Mick taylor does arise some feelings also among the Rolling Stones fans...

- Doxa

the Honky Tonk Women single through Exile was a "sterile period"? Really, Keith?

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skipstone
IT is funny. I do indeed like the sneering and weaving mashing sound of Keith and Woody on Some Girls and Emotional Rescue. There's some kind of definitive thing there, or possibly A definitive Rolling Stones sound, of the Ronnie era. I'd probably go with Exile/Soup for Mick Taylor's era and Out Of Our Heads (US)/Aftermath(US) for the Brian Jones era.

And indeed, it is two different bands, the Taylor version and the Woody version. Totally different.

Which is nice.

I certainly can't expound about the Ronnie era starting with Undercover onward because it seems Ronnie was mixed off of every album with exception to some solos he did. He hasn't been an audible band member since Tattoo You, with some exceptions here and there (Saint Of Me, Out Of Tears, You Got Me Rocking - all that slide stuff he's done).

I have similar thoughts.

In my inner but big Rolling Stones fan/critic world I am total relativist as far the Brian/Taylor/Ronnie eras are concerned: all of them are as good as the others, and to apply the words of Maestro Richards: all of them are my children as far being a fan goes, so how can you pick up one! All of them are unique and awesome in their own terms. And I can even understand the reasons why some people actually prefer one era over others (each have good arguments to back up the preference). I see them three different but exciting chapters in a great story. Taken together they make a marvellous story of development of rock and roll from 1962 to early 80's.

Hmm.. there is fourth era - and the longest in terms of chapter - that I honestly think is very much worse than the eras mentioned: the Vegas Era starting in 1989... For example, what I think is great in Wood Era 1975-1982 (or 1983/86) is very rarely to be heard in this latest era. So as far as the traditional Ronnie vs. Taylor debate goes, I see that solely a question of the past (choosing between the eras) - and nothing to do with their recent (since 1989) doings.

- Doxa

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Lightnin'

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Mathijs

Unless of course you take into account the real way Exile was recorded -just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote, half a dozen from Olympics and Stargroves and the rest done completely at Sunset. The Sunset sessions where basically Mick, Keith and Jimmy Miller with a bunch of sessions guys, and this is one of the reasons why Taylor and Wyman play on only half the songs, and on these songs they play a fairly minor role.

Mathijs

This is a strange way to paint these sessions in a certain corner. And it's not historically accurate either.
Yes, the usual suspects (MJ, KR) and producer Jimmy Miller were there when the work at Sunset Sound was done. But there were more than 3 or 4 basic tracks from Nellcote. And the only other bandmember who was present for the full finishing/mixing stage in L.A. was Taylor. Richards and Taylor were renting houses on the same street in Bel Air and both of them remember this period (around December 1971) vividly.
Obviously they would not have asked Taylor to stick around till the very end if he didn't have an important job to do.

The revisionist theory that Taylor played a "minor" role on Exile has not gained any more currency through repetition. I cannot imagine most of those songs without Taylor's playing. "Shake Your Hips" without those (truly!) weaving guitars? "Torn and Frayed" without the melodic bass line? "Rocks Off" without that tasty playing in the outro? "Venilator Blues"? "Minor", indeed!

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Amsterdamned
It always amazes me when it comes to Taylor this board is on fire. Like him or not

I think the bonus cuts without him have highlighted to me how important he was to the sound of that era.

I don't think that much of what he played on most of PMS(much better than Keith's new lead though!), but towards the end when he goes higher up the fretboard he plays a fluid melodic run that is distinctively early 70's era Taylor in flavour.

In that moment the gap between backing and the vocal/lead guitar overdubs disappear.

I don't know if it's actually Taylor lifting PMS to higher levels than anything heard in over a decade, or that it just was a magical period for the Stones, where anything they did was just out of this world. It's not just Taylor vs. Wood on this, but also Charlie is s drumming in way he hasn't been able to do since the early 80's, and the track just shows the importance of Wyman to the Stones. Than there's the recording of Miller, the equipment they used, and we can go on. Taylor's playing is nice on PMS, but it's fairly standard and and quite mediocre executed. Still, it just fits the music in a way that's hardly heard in music.

It must be awfully frustrating for Jagger that any odd outtake from that period is miles ahead of what the Stones have done the last 20 years. That must be painfull.

Mathijs

On this, Mathjis, I agree 100%.

It seems to me based on things I've read over the years that the ABKCO Music copyrighted songs on Exile were already recorded at Olympic and or Stargroves - due to the copyright, since it was done during their time under contract with Decca. Whether they were finished for Sticky Fingers or not who knows - they may have recorded things extra or over for Exile. But they were certainly done (recorded) prior to any work at Nellcote (Loving Cup, Shine A Light, Stop Breaking Down, Torn And Frayed, Sweet Virginia). That's why ABKCO has the copyright of those songs - and of course, all of Sticky Fingers except You Gotta Move.

keith got him back for his first solo album at least for one track. I can't believe he felt that bad with him. Keith also is very relaxed nowadays and I can see him let M.T.play some licks.
Eric Clapton plays with Jeff Beck again and with Steve Winwood. I mean they have all grown up. Lets get them back together again and give us a decent album soon. The three "W" the two "M" and Keith.

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jamesjagger
keith got him back for his first solo album at least for one track. I can't believe he felt that bad with him. Keith also is very relaxed nowadays and I can see him let M.T.play some licks.
Eric Clapton plays with Jeff Beck again and with Steve Winwood. I mean they have all grown up. Lets get them back together again and give us a decent album soon. The three "W" the two "M" and Keith.

And they even got Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker not just walk in the same continent but to share the stage with Clapton in Cream re-union... The small personal tensions between The Stones guys are chicken shit compared to those guys...

- Doxa

Saying that Taylor played a minor role on Exile is ridiculous.

<It must be awfully frustrating for Jagger that any odd outtake from that period is miles ahead of what the Stones have done the last 20 years. That must be painfull.>

Jagger will never admit that.Even if the songs were recorded on the north or south pole, they were a winning team those days.

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71Tele

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Lightnin'

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Mathijs

Unless of course you take into account the real way Exile was recorded -just 3 or 4 very basic backing tracks from Nellcote, half a dozen from Olympics and Stargroves and the rest done completely at Sunset. The Sunset sessions where basically Mick, Keith and Jimmy Miller with a bunch of sessions guys, and this is one of the reasons why Taylor and Wyman play on only half the songs, and on these songs they play a fairly minor role.

Mathijs

This is a strange way to paint these sessions in a certain corner. And it's not historically accurate either.
Yes, the usual suspects (MJ, KR) and producer Jimmy Miller were there when the work at Sunset Sound was done. But there were more than 3 or 4 basic tracks from Nellcote. And the only other bandmember who was present for the full finishing/mixing stage in L.A. was Taylor. Richards and Taylor were renting houses on the same street in Bel Air and both of them remember this period (around December 1971) vividly.
Obviously they would not have asked Taylor to stick around till the very end if he didn't have an important job to do.

The revisionist theory that Taylor played a "minor" role on Exile has not gained any more currency through repetition. I cannot imagine most of those songs without Taylor's playing. "Shake Your Hips" without those (truly!) weaving guitars? "Torn and Frayed" without the melodic bass line? "Rocks Off" without that tasty playing in the outro? "Venilator Blues"? "Minor", indeed!

Not to forget Shine A Light, Stop Breaking Down, ADTL, Casino Boogie, Sweet Virginia, Tumbling Dice, Soul Survivor, to name a few extra. Those who say Taylor played a minor role on Exile have listened to another vinyl or CD I guess, but not to Exile. Interesting fact: the cover of the booklet in de Exile deluxe release. Who are sitting there, playing together? Indeed, Richards, Taylor and Jagger, from left to right. Not accidentally, of course.