Who plays harp at the end of Jack Flash?
Brian or Mick?
I'd appreciate a source for it if you know of one.

Thanks
Marv

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

... I've never noticed a harp at the end.

[thepowergoats.com]

It sounds like harp, but it's an organ that fills out the sound at the end of the song.

Something that I noticed for the first time recently is that the organ also plays in the choruses. It's very slight and hard to hear, but I'm convinced it's there.

I think that is a harmonium/pedal organ, Olympic Sound Studios had one. I haven't noticed it during the chorus's, but it really comes in at the end on a big B chord which sustains for awhile, almost sounds like a brass section.

There is also a hammond organ playing throughout the song, but I seriously doubt that is Bill playing those parts, it's too Nicky Hopkins-esque for a start. Bill says he plays organ on the studio version of JJF though, I'd say it's most likely the harmonium/pedal organ part rather than the hammond.

It's possible that it's the accordion setting on the MKII Mellotron, but I'm not really convinced that is the case here.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-01 21:47 by His Majesty.

Thanks for the input.
Here's what I found at the site "Time Is On Our Side"

Probable line-up:

Drums: Charlie Watts & Keith Richards
Bass: Keith Richards
Acoustic guitars: Keith Richards & Brian Jones
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocals: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards & Jimmy Miller
Maracas: Mick Jagger
Piano: Ian Stewart
Organ: Bill Wyman

There's no harmonica listed so I guess it is an organ at the end
but it sure sounds like a harp to me.

I don't know of a similiar site that lists credits, any other thoughts?

Thanks

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

I doubt the piano is by Ian, and the hammond features hopkins-esque licks during the solo part, so I'd say...

Piano and Organ: Nicky Hopkins
Harmonium: Bill Wyman

Blowing hard in to a B harmonica does sound like what is on the record though, but so would a harmonum, but if that is how that sound was achieved whoever did has a lot of lung capacity.

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marvpeck
Thanks for the input.
Here's what I found at the site "Time Is On Our Side"

Probable line-up:

Drums: Charlie Watts & Keith Richards
Bass: Keith Richards
Acoustic guitars: Keith Richards & Brian Jones
Electric guitar: Keith Richards
Lead vocal: Mick Jagger
Background vocals: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards & Jimmy Miller
Maracas: Mick Jagger
Piano: Ian Stewart
Organ: Bill Wyman

Brian on acoustic? That's got to be wrong. Keith takes full-credit for playing all acoustic guitars on this track. And I hear more than one electric guitar. I always thought Brian played the high-end notes duirng chorus, break, and fade-out.

Nah, no way is that Brian playing those lines, those are distinctively Keith - open E tuning licks, you can even see him play similar lines in One Plus One when he's sitting on the floor playing his les paul custom.

Perhaps timeisonourside is thinking that Brian played as part of the basic philips tape machine recording.

On SAL , chuck Immitates this sound on the organ. This took some criticism. I think it sounds cool. At the end of the record version to me Ive always thought thought it sounded like there's a bagpipe playing in there somewhere. perhaps that is the harmonum/ pedal organ you speak of.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-03 08:12 by ryanpow.

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His Majesty
Nah, no way is that Brian playing those lines, those are distinctively Keith - open E tuning licks, you can even see him play similar lines in One Plus One when he's sitting on the floor playing his les paul custom.

Perhaps timeisonourside is thinking that Brian played as part of the basic philips tape machine recording.

Acccording to Bill Wyman (Rolling With The Stones), Brian plays guitar on JJF. Keith has claimed credit for all the acoustic parts, so that leaves one of the electrics for Brian. Neither Keith nor Mick have said that Brian didn't play on JJF, so that leaves me to believe that he did. Also, if Keith played those distinctive lead lines on JJF, why doesn't he ever play those in concert. It's always Ronnie playing those lead lines. I just find that strange because Keith plays a hell of a lot of lead lines in live shows, but he never does so for JJF. He just sticks to the basic riff.

Try playing those lines using open G tuning with a capo on the 4th fret and then you might get some explanation as to why Keith wouldn't play them live.

He plays similar lines when he's tuned to open E during the Sympathy sessions. I don't dispute that Brian is on there, but just that he doesn't have any prominent part.

Mick and Keith haven't said Brian is on it either, just Bill and he doesn't say anything other than that.

Sorry, I have to interrupt her. Since I'm one of the notorious LARS Jones fans that seem to terrify some to such a degree they flee the LARS board I want to assure everybody it's not my intention to hunt anybody down. But having had a look on here for the first time recently, I feel the urgent need to set some facts straight, from this thread and from the "Brian on Beggars"-thread as well and I promise to leave you alone thereafter.


The assumption that several basic tracks from the Beggars/JJF sessions were recorded on the Philips tape- cassette machine of Keith, as His Majesty believes to be the case for JJF and Parachute Woman, is utter nonsense and is originated from an interview joke by Mick Jagger in 1968.

Bill in "Stone Alone": "Mick was [while doing promo for JJF, May 1968] in the habit of stringing people along: around this time he convinced an 'Evening Standard' reporter that our new single had been recorded on 'an ordinary household tape-cassette machine at my house. It didn't take long.'" [p. 584, paperback edition]

The only song on which the cassette machine was used was SFM, but certainly not for the complete recording, but for Keith's acoustic guitar and one of Charlie's drum/percussion parts - with further overdubs on the studio machine later on. Otherwise the track would not have been suitable for any dancefloor in the world. The rough, highly compressed sound is very clearly to determine, especially in the intro. Other sounds from Beggars that could have been achieved by using the cassette machine are those in question for a mellotron being used, since the mellotron uses intruments prerecorded on tape (1/8 inch tape just like "a household tape-cassette machine", if my observation from what I saw on YouTube about mellotrons is right). So maybe, just maybe on JSP it could be a reorder recorded on the cassette machine, but it could be mellotron as well; I'm open to all suggestions here.


Next point, JJF.


Brian is playing the high notes on a Telecaster. Last December there was a JJF promo clip on YouTube, the Stones playing a live version (May 1968). When I watched it, there had been around 60,000 views, so I wasn't the only one who saw it. (There had been a link on LARS; after a few months the clip was taken off on the request of ABKCO.)

The intro was just Keith and Bill holding the basic note, and the slightly out of tune guitar solo parts in the middle were missing. (My guess: this overdubbed guitar is probably Brian on his 12string Rickenbacker.) Otherwise the arrangement was pretty much the same as the single version. (With Bill on bass, though, on the live version.)
By the way: this video shows Brian playing in his typical sober guitar style, he is not "out of it" at all and he is even able to hold his guitar, thus contradicting Mick's Rolling Stone interview remark of 1995. Good God, how much some people ridicule themselves by describing Brian's state of his last 18 months in this far out, wild manner.


Last point.


No, there are no acoustic guitars on JJF. This is coming from Keith in "According To The Rolling Stones" (2002), confusing JJF and SFM. I don't know if this is due to his notorious bad memory or a sad attempt trying to make forget Bill's detailled and forceful insistence that he, Bill, wrote the riff for JJF. I tend to the latter.
Anyway, there are no acoustic guitars on JJF unless they are totally buried in the mix or were treated with much effort to sound like electric guitars. Anyone who uses his ears will agree, I'm sure.


Alright, this was it. Have a nice day everybody (especially Doxa, my old LARS-opponent),


Mock

"On the record,I played a Gibson Hummingbird tuned to either open E or open D with a capo. and then I added another(acoustic) guitar over the top,but tuned to Nashville tuning(tuned like a 12 string w/o the lower octave strings)." Keith Richards-Guitar World Nov. 2005 For what its worth.

<and then I added another(acoustic) guitar over the top,but tuned to Nashville tuning(tuned like a 12 string w/o the lower octave strings>

He must be talking about Mick Taylor and Wild Horses. I've never heard of Keith tuning up to Nashville Tuning.

I guess i stopped too soon on the mag quote but Keith has known about Nashville tuning since 1964 or 65.(whenever the first Us tour occurred). Hes mentioned numerous sources how he learned this tuning from a guitarist in George Jones band when they both played the same venue at a fair in San Antonio, texas. Its one of Keiths better known stories.

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Mock Jogger

The assumption that several basic tracks from the Beggars/JJF sessions were recorded on the Philips tape- cassette machine of Keith, as His Majesty believes to be the case for JJF and Parachute Woman, is utter nonsense and is originated from an interview joke by Mick Jagger in 1968.

Bill in "Stone Alone": "Mick was [while doing promo for JJF, May 1968] in the habit of stringing people along: around this time he convinced an 'Evening Standard' reporter that our new single had been recorded on 'an ordinary household tape-cassette machine at my house. It didn't take long.'" [p. 584, paperback edition]

The only song on which the cassette machine was used was SFM, but certainly not for the complete recording, but for Keith's acoustic guitar and one of Charlie's drum/percussion parts - with further overdubs on the studio machine later on. Otherwise the track would not have been suitable for any dancefloor in the world. The rough, highly compressed sound is very clearly to determine, especially in the intro. Other sounds from Beggars that could have been achieved by using the cassette machine are those in question for a mellotron being used, since the mellotron uses intruments prerecorded on tape (1/8 inch tape just like "a household tape-cassette machine", if my observation from what I saw on YouTube about mellotrons is right). So maybe, just maybe on JSP it could be a reorder recorded on the cassette machine, but it could be mellotron as well; I'm open to all suggestions here.

The very first basic tracks for JJF, SFM and Parachute Woman were recorded on the Philips tape machine, these were then transferred to Olympic Studios 8 track. The compression, low fidelity and sound of the basic backing tracks on those songs is because of the tape machine.

This has nothing to do with Mick's joke, Keith has specifically talked about the recording of those three tracks and the involvement of the Philips tape machine during the basic backing track recordings.

The tape machine wouldn't have been used for the mellotron on Jigsaw Puzzle(it is definitely a mellotron btw, flute sound with loads of echo). The MKII Mellotron does not use the same size of tape as a household tape machine.

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Mock Jogger
Next point, JJF.


Brian is playing the high notes on a Telecaster. Last December there was a JJF promo clip on YouTube, the Stones playing a live version (May 1968). When I watched it, there had been around 60,000 views, so I wasn't the only one who saw it. (There had been a link on LARS; after a few months the clip was taken off on the request of ABKCO.)

The intro was just Keith and Bill holding the basic note, and the slightly out of tune guitar solo parts in the middle were missing. (My guess: this overdubbed guitar is probably Brian on his 12string Rickenbacker.) Otherwise the arrangement was pretty much the same as the single version. (With Bill on bass, though, on the live version.)
By the way: this video shows Brian playing in his typical sober guitar style, he is not "out of it" at all and he is even able to hold his guitar, thus contradicting Mick's Rolling Stone interview remark of 1995. Good God, how much some people ridicule themselves by describing Brian's state of his last 18 months in this far out, wild manner.

One problem, that wasn't live!!!

The footage doesn't show Brian playing anything that matched what is heard on the 'live' audio, he's shown playing basic single note - low notes for the main riff, then simply strumming basic bar chords during the chorus just like he did at the r&r circus.

The high end parts on the actual single are by Keith. Brian just isn't audible on the studio or live versions imo. If you're sitting there thinking wow, those high guitar parts are great, well done Brian, you're most likely crediting the wrong guy!

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Mock Jogger
Last point.


No, there are no acoustic guitars on JJF. This is coming from Keith in "According To The Rolling Stones" (2002), confusing JJF and SFM. I don't know if this is due to his notorious bad memory or a sad attempt trying to make forget Bill's detailled and forceful insistence that he, Bill, wrote the riff for JJF. I tend to the latter.
Anyway, there are no acoustic guitars on JJF unless they are totally buried in the mix or were treated with much effort to sound like electric guitars. Anyone who uses his ears will agree, I'm sure.


Alright, this was it. Have a nice day everybody (especially Doxa, my old LARS-opponent),


Mock

Keith has mentioned a track that is running underneath on JJF, this is most likely the philips tape machine recording with acoustic guitar(s).



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-19 15:01 by His Majesty.

>> This has nothing to with Mick's joke <<
>> One problem, that wasn't live!!! <<

thanks HM

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Mock Jogger
Sorry, I have to interrupt her. Since I'm one of the notorious LARS Jones fans that seem to terrify some to such a degree they flee the LARS board I want to assure everybody it's not my intention to hunt anybody down. But having had a look on here for the first time recently, I feel the urgent need to set some facts straight, from this thread and from the "Brian on Beggars"-thread as well and I promise to leave you alone thereafter.

I stopped posting at lars due to the OTT anti Mick & Keith stuff, crazy sycophantic posting and the continual mis-information that gets thrown around.

Sorry, but you have to accept that Mick and Keith are vitally important members of the band, I simply cannot understand how someone can claim to be a stones fan whilst at the same time completely be against the very two members who's songs etc made the band! Brian may have started it, but Mick and Keith's songs kept it going and going and going.

Brian's known contributions which have been verified by members of the band are great in their own right, but they are in most cases contributions to Mick and Keith's songs. It's about time the more obsessive Brian fans acknowledged that fact.

Noone is scared of members of lars, they are probably just creeped out by the level of fan-dom which for me reached it's crazy peak when certain Brian fans said they'd like to see his remains!?

Anyway, rather than go, It would be cool if you stuck around and posted more. This forum is NOT anti Brian, I read some people saying that elsewhere!?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is "LARS"?

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Sleepy City
Excuse my ignorance, but what is "LARS"?

[www.voy.com]

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His Majesty
One problem, that wasn't live!!!

The footage doesn't show Brian playing anything that matched what is heard on the 'live' audio, he's shown playing basic single note - low notes for the main riff, then simply strumming basic bar chords during the chorus just like he did at the r&r circus.

The high end parts on the actual single are by Keith. Brian just isn't audible on the studio or live versions imo. If you're sitting there thinking wow, those high guitar parts are great, well done Brian, you're most likely crediting the wrong guy!

HM, the JJF promos never show Keith or Brian during the choruses. Unfortunately, they just show Jagger, so we don't get to see who in fact was playing those high-end lead notes. Keith and Brian are only shown during the verses, when as you say Brian is seen only playing that basic single note. I've seen the promos many times and you don't see much of Keith and Brian playing their guitars. What is clear, however, is that Brian is playing a Fender Telecaster (the high notes?) and the promo(s) were an alternate cut. You can hear those lead chorus lines just like those on the released version. There are defintiely two electric guitars on the promo version. So, who played those guitar parts? Or, more specifically, who played high-end lead on the promo cut? The person who played lead in the promo probably played it in the released version. Was it Brian or did Keith play both parts? Its hard to say.

I've just seen the promo (32nd bit remasters) on youtube and you do in fact see one of the guitarists playing the guitar during the chorus, and its Keith. And he's strumming 'basic bar chords'! He's not playing the lead lines. Hmm . . .

Neptune, please understand, the band are miming in all of the promo videos for JJF. Even though they are miming in all versions, Keith is shown to be playing as if he is tuned to open E, where as Brian isn't.

You can see them play during the chorus, you just need to watch carefully.

There are multiple instruments and vocals on the supposed live take, the other versions feature the studio single release with different vocals, instrumentally it is identical to the single release.

Those 'lead lines' that are heard are played using open E tuning, they are actually more chordal than this 'lead line' tag suggests. Keith plays very similar parts during the early versions of Sympathy for the Devil. Those type of melodic lines are a feature of Keith's open E style.

Basically there is no proof that Brian played any significant guitar part on JJF, Bill has said that Brian played guitar, but nothing more.

The amps they were using at that time, Vox Supreme and Triumph Silicon 100 etc are capable of extreme treble regardless of the guitar. Just because the part is trebley and Brian is shown using a telecaster in some promo's means nothing.

All of the prominent guitar parts on JJF have authority and power and have many Keith type licks etc, going by Brian's recorded guitar performances from 67/68 I seriously doubt he was the player behind any of them.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-19 21:47 by His Majesty.

It's hard to tell who played the lead lines, but my personal opinion is that I would be really surprised if Brian was even able to play these lead lines in an overdub session. For all we know he didn't play guitar on any record since late 65, and what we hear on sessions and live ever since he just isn't a very good and steady guitar player -with the exception of the beautiful No Expectations.

The lead lines are ovedubbed for sure, and I just don't see Brian patiently working for hours to get it right...the Satanic sessions shows Keith interupting Brian's attempts on guitar within a few takes.

Mathijs

If I thought Brian played anything significant on JJF I'd be shouting it from the hills, but there just isn't anything there that really backs up the claim.

If Brian had played what amounts to quite an important part, I'm sure it would have been specifically pointed out by a band member or Jimmy Miller etc. But no, as far as I am aware there is only really Bill's book that says Brian played guitar on the track and it doesn't go in to any details.

I believe that Brian was probably part of the basic Philips tape machine recording and thus whatever guitar contribution he made during that is buried in the mix(like his sitar is on SFM).

In both the JJF promos and the r&r circus Brian is shown playing single notes at the low end of the fretboard for the riff and strummed bar chords during the chorus's. There is no trace of such playing on either the single, the 'live' promo or the r&r circus release.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-20 03:18 by His Majesty.

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Mathijs
It's hard to tell who played the lead lines, but my personal opinion is that I would be really surprised if Brian was even able to play these lead lines in an overdub session. For all we know he didn't play guitar on any record since late 65, and what we hear on sessions and live ever since he just isn't a very good and steady guitar player -with the exception of the beautiful No Expectations.

I think that's Brian lead guitar on Please Go Home on BTB (late 1966), unless Keith learned how to play Bo Diddley on electric slide. Otherwise, yes, Brian don't play guitar since Aftermath.

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neptune

I think that's Brian lead guitar on Please Go Home on BTB (late 1966), unless Keith learned how to play Bo Diddley on electric slide.

That song doesn't have any slide guitar on it.

Of course, I would also have to add NE and Still A Fool as well, both slide numbers You guys have almost convinced me that Brian didn't play on JJF. I think he might have played the acoustic lead on Sittin On A Fence, but I'm not sure about that. Thus, from Between the Buttons on, Jonesy for sure plays guitar on three tracks, one of them not even being released. Not a whole lot of production there. But NE was brilliant and his playing on One Plus One shows Brian still could play guitar pretty well. I think it was a case of him not showing up to the studio anymore as opposed to him not being capable of playing a guitar.

Thing is, one of Brian's strong points has clearly deteriorated by 1968, his slide playing sounds a lot more shakey than it was previously, his 1967 - 68 guitar playing has the sound of someone who doesn't play guitar much imo.

That is fragility is part of the beauty of No Expectations though.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-20 06:09 by His Majesty.

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neptune

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Mathijs
It's hard to tell who played the lead lines, but my personal opinion is that I would be really surprised if Brian was even able to play these lead lines in an overdub session. For all we know he didn't play guitar on any record since late 65, and what we hear on sessions and live ever since he just isn't a very good and steady guitar player -with the exception of the beautiful No Expectations.

I think that's Brian lead guitar on Please Go Home on BTB (late 1966), unless Keith learned how to play Bo Diddley on electric slide. Otherwise, yes, Brian don't play guitar since Aftermath.

I doubt Brian plays guitar on Please Go Home. It sounds like Keith on the Gibson LP Custom through a Vox tremelo. And to add, the Bo Diddly rythm is not hard to play, the most important thing is to get the tremelo sound right.

Maybe I miss a song, but Brian's only guitar contribution after Aftermath is No Expectations.

Mathijs