>> I was specific about Keith's involvment with the IORR track -
he wiped Ronnie's playing except his acoustic track from what I've read. <<

yes, and Ronnie's said he was "quite right" to do it. and since we don't know what the original track sounded like,
we're not very qualified to make judgements about it, are we.

>> And even though Ronnie gave the song to Mick, he really should have gotten credit for it. <<

the tradeoff gave Ronnie full credit on I Can Feel the Fire, and it was what the songwriters themselves decided on,
so what anyone else thinks "should" be doesn't count for much, and it sure doesn't qualify as "theft".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-28 21:57 by with sssoul.

For what its worth, with sssoul I fully agree!!
On the subject of "The Last Time", The performance on 1965 Ed Sullivan show(and these were done before they went to the habit of pre recording the backing track)plainly shows the riff to be played by Brian although Keith takes the lead break in the middle and then reverts back to rythm behind Brians relentless attack. I've also been very impressed on the Sullivan performance of "Around And Around" how Brian's rythm licks are intricate and exact-far from just strumming!

sure: Brian played some very fine guitar, and yep indeed he did play the riff on The Last Time in all the footage.
but that doesn't mean he's the one who originated it. i'm not saying he didn't -
i'm saying i don't accept the "he played it so he must have originated it" notion.
people in bands play things all the time that they didn't originate themselves.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-28 22:03 by with sssoul.

I agree with that premise. You know, I think sometimes we should go back and watch some of the Brian footage just to understand and remember(or for younger fans to realize)how talented Brian was. I think alot of people dismiss his(and to a certain degree Mick Taylors) contributions and abilities based on their later bouts with health and mental afflictions.

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scottkeef
For what its worth, with sssoul I fully agree!!
On the subject of "The Last Time", The performance on 1965 Ed Sullivan show(and these were done before they went to the habit of pre recording the backing track)plainly shows the riff to be played by Brian although Keith takes the lead break in the middle and then reverts back to rythm behind Brians relentless attack. I've also been very impressed on the Sullivan performance of "Around And Around" how Brian's rythm licks are intricate and exact-far from just strumming!

I think the best footage of Brian's playing guitar is the 1965 NME Pollwinners Concert at Wembley Stadium, where the Stones perform Everybody Needs Somebody To Love, Pain In My Heart, Around and Around, and The Last Time. You can watch this on YouTube. What's great about this live performance is that Brian's guitar is loud and up front. He plays effortlessly and he was much more technically gifted than Keith at that time. The tape bears that out. His rhythm on Around was on fire!

Right! Right! You're bloody well right! (aint that how that song goes?)HAHA

Discussions about who played, wrote or inspired what are fun. It enables us to visualise
the band creating the greatest music of all. A lot of it is just phantasy of course.
We were not there when the songs were created, and there is only so little documentation
of the proces that we are left on our own to phantasize about these things. I don't mind,
because it is part of the fun and fascination for the band.

So I guess there is no need to get emotional in discussions like these, except
maybe for the emotion of happiness. I think it is a pity that some people actually get angry,
frustrated or sad in a discussion like this.
It is not really important who wrote or played what is it? As long as the song rocks us, it is all right!

There is no need for negative emotions. It is all supposed to be fun.

Don't remember the source but I read that Brian sung the first version of The last time at the De Lane Studios on January 11. Mick and Keith without Brian, went to the RCA studios February 65, deleted Brian version and modified with Mick vocals. The tape with Brian singing The last time is untraceable but it's said that it starts with 10 seconds with tambourine and there's no Brian guitar.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-29 11:53 by straycat58.

<He plays effortlessly and he was much more technically gifted than Keith at that time.>

I've never heard that Brian was technically more gifted than Keith in 1965 before. Do you care to explain?

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DandelionPowderman
I've never heard that Brian was technically more gifted than Keith in 1965 before. Do you care to explain?

I'm sure he does... and the beat will go on...

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DandelionPowderman
<He plays effortlessly and he was much more technically gifted than Keith at that time.>

I've never heard that Brian was technically more gifted than Keith in 1965 before. Do you care to explain?

In the the 1965 NME live performance, Keith botched his solo on The Last Time and the rest of his playing was somewhat sloppy. Brian, on the other hand, was great throughout the set, hardly making any mistakes, and looking like a real pro. Again, this performance is on YouTube. See for yourself. Brian was a better guitarist than Keith back then, pure and simple. That's my humble opnion.

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neptune

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DandelionPowderman
<He plays effortlessly and he was much more technically gifted than Keith at that time.>

I've never heard that Brian was technically more gifted than Keith in 1965 before. Do you care to explain?

In the the 1965 NME live performance, Keith botched his solo on The Last Time and the rest of his playing was somewhat sloppy. Brian, on the other hand, was great throughout the set, hardly making any mistakes, and looking like a real pro. Again, this performance is on YouTube. See for yourself. Brian was a better guitarist than Keith back then, pure and simple. That's my humble opnion.

It's your opinion alright, but if we stick to the facts and listen to Brian's guitar parts he never played beyond standard three chord work and Chuck Berry like rythm guitar. All guitar parts that are anything more difficult -solo's, fingerpicking, riffs - is played by Richards, who was a technical advanced played from the early days on. The only solo Brian played were slide solo's: I Wanna Be Your Man and No Expectations.

Even Brian considered himself the harmonica player of the band, not the guitarist.

Mathijs

Don't forget Brian's work on Mona! That is a classic example of how this cat could learn to play anything he wanted. The more it's a shame that he did not have the concentration to continue after he reached the first results. At least that is how it seems to me.

I am not dissing ole'Keith here of course. Just pointing out an achievement of Brian.

WEll,theres plenty of evidence on film and in studio of Brian being alot more gifted than "three chord work and chuck berry like rythm". The Ed sullivan tapes show that. How about the duel guitar work between Keith and Brian on "What A Shame"? Pretty tasty licks on both sides. And his "rythm work" on "Around" and "Down the Road Apiece" is pretty steady and intricate!(just MY opinion though)
And I agree,Spanish Kurt on MONA. I read where Bo Diddley once said Brian was the only white cat who had his sound down!

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Spanish Kurt
Don't forget Brian's work on Mona! That is a classic example of how this cat could learn to play anything he wanted. The more it's a shame that he did not have the concentration to continue after he reached the first results. At least that is how it seems to me.

I am not dissing ole'Keith here of course. Just pointing out an achievement of Brian.

yeah man, Brian's work on Mona is incredible! How that cat managed to play that one chord right on the beat is just fantastic! He was a true guitar prodigy -he knew how to play 2 chords in a row!

Show me one guitar part by Brian that is beyond plain three-chord noodling.

Mathijs

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neptune

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scottkeef
For what its worth, with sssoul I fully agree!!
On the subject of "The Last Time", The performance on 1965 Ed Sullivan show(and these were done before they went to the habit of pre recording the backing track)plainly shows the riff to be played by Brian although Keith takes the lead break in the middle and then reverts back to rythm behind Brians relentless attack. I've also been very impressed on the Sullivan performance of "Around And Around" how Brian's rythm licks are intricate and exact-far from just strumming!

I think the best footage of Brian's playing guitar is the 1965 NME Pollwinners Concert at Wembley Stadium, where the Stones perform Everybody Needs Somebody To Love, Pain In My Heart, Around and Around, and The Last Time. You can watch this on YouTube. What's great about this live performance is that Brian's guitar is loud and up front. He plays effortlessly and he was much more technically gifted than Keith at that time. The tape bears that out. His rhythm on Around was on fire!

I just watched it. There's two things to be heard: Brian's guitar, and Jagger's vocals. Somewhere in the back you hear keith's guitar, and the rest is just a mumble.

What you see is Brian Jones playing three basic chords, added with a standard Chuck Berry R&B rythm pattern.

Don't get me wrong -the Stones with Brian are fantastic. It's true punk avant la lettre. But to say that Brian is an exceptional guitarist is just pure nonsenses.

Mathijs

Mathijs seems to have his mission going on...

- Doxa

well.ignorance is bliss! And I aint saying which one of us is in it!

When I hear people say that Brian was technically gifted, my alarm bells keep ringing. There is still no video or audio evidence to prove it, unfortunately. But I get excited, because I always want to see the footage, but no one has provided it yet...

Good Lord!!

Ah, well, to me Keith wiped Ronnie's bits because he just wanted to do his own thing on it. I think it was rather sly of Mick to give a nod and a wink to Ronnie about him keeping I Can Feel the Fire and Mick tooting off with IORR.

If Keith was 'quite right' from what Ronnie said, how does Ronnie mean it? We've never heard what Ronnie did. My judgment about the tune is it's rather lame almost pedestrian playing and it's a bit of a snooze. I would think Ronnie may have been a bit more aggressive - but that's just my take on it. Keith's hushing of Ronnie about the song over the years is why I said I think Keith is a thief!

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skipstone
Keith wiped Ronnie's bits

Yar!

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DandelionPowderman
When I hear people say that Brian was technically gifted, my alarm bells keep ringing. There is still no video or audio evidence to prove it, unfortunately. But I get excited, because I always want to see the footage, but no one has provided it yet...

Well, for starters, there's the Ed Sullivan live performance of Little Red Rooster on May 2, 1965. Brian shines on this one. Again, this footage can be seen on YouTube. If that's not technically gifted, then I don't know what is. Let's remember also that that was 1965, not 1975! For 1965, Brian Jones was easily one of the best rock guitarists in the world.

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Mathijs
I just watched it. There's two things to be heard: Brian's guitar, and Jagger's vocals. Somewhere in the back you hear keith's guitar, and the rest is just a mumble.

What you see is Brian Jones playing three basic chords, added with a standard Chuck Berry R&B rythm pattern.

Don't get me wrong -the Stones with Brian are fantastic. It's true punk avant la lettre. But to say that Brian is an exceptional guitarist is just pure nonsenses.

I may not be a musician, but when I hear Brian's guitar on LRR, NE, The Last Time, I Wanna Be Your Man, Mercy Mercy, I Can't Be Satisfied, etc., it sounds great to my ears! Three chords or not, its beautiful to listen to. And in that 1965 NME performance, Brian carries the band with his guitar work. So , I agree with you, Mathijs. Brian wasn't an exceptional guitarist. No no, he was an ace guitarist!

There has been only one technically gifted guitarist in the Rolling Stones, and his name is Mick Taylor. But he is not the most important or interesting guitarist of the band.

I can not see the point of fighting over the technical excellence of Brian Jones. The point of The Stones, as I see it, has never been any kind of technical excellence. I just watched the Cream performances at Royal Albert Hall (1968 & 2005), and watching those guys play, one can only say that Charlie Watts, Bill Wyman or Keith Richards are pretty awful, sloppy and mediocre players technicalwise compared to Ginger Baker, Jack Bruce and Eric Clapton (but despite this 'fact', these three first-mentioned produce much interesting music or noise into my taste).

So, for me 'proving' that Brian jones is technically great player or not is totally irrelevant (and interestingly, only Brian Jones seem to cause discussions like this, and only Brian seems to demand such a strong criteria). I don't know which is more crazy: to prove that he is such a great player, or that he is not. It is like the others trying to prove that UFOs or Santa Claus exist, and others that they do not.

One more note: in those Cream concerts there was nothing Eric Clapton did that could compare in efficiency to the slide of "I Wanna Be Your Man", "King Bee" or "I Can't Be Satisfied", or the riff of "The Last Time", or the rhythm work of "Mona". That Brian cat know exactly what to do with those notes he chose to play. The 'guitar gods' and other w...nkers just bore my ass.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-31 10:02 by Doxa.

I hate to keep adding examples but how about "Cant Be Satisfied". Country fried picking from Keith and as true a style of slide work from Brian as you will hear. The kind of effort that Muddy himself beamed with pride about!
And I agree, DOXA. Its like trying to compare Johnny Winter with Billy Gibbons(the early stuff). Aint hardly nobody faster than the original Guitarslinger(Johnny) and Billy is one of the great funkmasters but how can you say one is "better " than the other? Apples and oranges I guess.

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neptune

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DandelionPowderman
When I hear people say that Brian was technically gifted, my alarm bells keep ringing. There is still no video or audio evidence to prove it, unfortunately. But I get excited, because I always want to see the footage, but no one has provided it yet...

Well, for starters, there's the Ed Sullivan live performance of Little Red Rooster on May 2, 1965. Brian shines on this one. Again, this footage can be seen on YouTube. If that's not technically gifted, then I don't know what is. Let's remember also that that was 1965, not 1975! For 1965, Brian Jones was easily one of the best rock guitarists in the world.

There is a big difference in a great guitar part and a technical advanced guitar part. Yes, Brian's slide work on LLR is fantastic -but it is encredibly easy to play. In fact, I can teach any non-guitarist within a couple of hours to play this slide part on a guitar in open tuning.

Brian's was musically encredibly gifted, he just knew what to play and when to play it. But from a technical point of view it's not very advanced what he does, and that includes his slide playing. Yes, his rythm part on Around & Around is great, but it is really simpel to play.

In my opinion the brilliance of Jones is not how he played slide, but the fact that this white, long haired guy from London plays a true black man's blues on national television. The sight of Jones with his Vox MK VI in '64 or '65 must have made an enourmous impact.

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Doxa
One more note: in those Cream concerts there was nothing Eric Clapton did that could compare in efficiency to the slide of "I Wanna Be Your Man", "King Bee" or "I Can't Be Satisfied", or the riff of "The Last Time", or the rhythm work of "Mona". That Brian cat know exactly what to do with those notes he chose to play. The 'guitar gods' and other w...nkers just bore my ass.

My sentiments exactly, Doxa. Excellent point! Eric Clapton, Duane Allman, Ry Cooder, Peter Green, zzzzzzz. I prefer guys like Brian Jones or George Harrison on guitar over those guys any day. Yeah, I would like to see Eric Clapton play the slide on No Expectations. How boring would that be?

I'd like to share a story here about "soul" over "technique."
A couple of years back, I heard a Beatles tribute band here in Atlanta that
was composed of guys my age in their 50's. All great players and I was looking
forward to it. They played those songs note for note and it was truly boring.

Around that same time, I heard another Beatles tribute band composed of some dudes in high school. They dressed like the Beatles, had the right instruments, and what I could have done without, they talked like the Beatles between the songs. However ....those kids rocked! The songs came alive, they were happy playing those songs, and were just full of energy!

Give me soul over technique any day.

Marv Peck

Y'all remember that rubber legged boy

It won't settle any questions about guitar playing, but if you want to see "soul over technique" and "punk avant la lettre", then take a look at the 1964 NME Pollwinners concert, when Brian was both guitarist and harp player (and not "just" the harp player either, you can see how essential a part of the band's sound he was then.)