Tell Me :
Talk
Other than the last name, what is there out there that really backs up that claim!?
yeah, that's what I've tended to think! I mean it might be a swipe at brian, but otherwise it sounds like all of the other anti-rich girl rants of this period of mick's(?) writing. It's yet another mirror in the mythology around brian--people looking into it generally see (or hear) what they already want to believe. And there's just enough evidence to make several interpretations plausible.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 04:11 by cc.
Hmm, this could apply to my initial post hah!
This is the thing, that credit could be down to ' the power of the internet'. I don't think anyone has actually been mentioned as the pianist on that song by the band or ALO etc in print or interview aside from Keith claiming he played it.
It's obvious that some web sites credits are influenced by what is discussed here, and Jack seemed to be the most likely cos a lot of folks are of the belief(including me before) that Brian had nothing to do with it nor could actually play it. Seems I was wrong.
It's on a dvd a very kind forum member sent me a couple of years ago.
As well as the aired performances, it features what is entitled rehearsals of them playing Ruby and Night, Brian plays piano on Night and it's during this rehearsal that the piano seems to become audible probably through the mic on the piano which Keith used for vocals during Ruby.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:38 by His Majesty.
No, no, I mean on LSTNT, I've edited my post a bit to make that clearer. Hey it was late and I'd had a few.
You are.
The Courtfield footage in tandem with Bill's crediting Brian with piano on Ruby Tuesday makes it seem very likely.
This gives us some idea that Brian was active on piano during the sessions.
Then there's the sullivan footage with possible audible live piano, the TOTP's footage which gives us some clear shots of what Brian's playing(miming) for the song. The way in which he's shown to play it and also the 2 piano player scenario opens things up to it possibly being Brian playing main piano with Keith adding higher octaves.
I'm not aware of any of the band crediting Jack with piano on LSTNT, I just assumed it was him, given the above why not Brian and Keith!?
Stretching things too far!?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:43 by His Majesty.
heh, why, don't we travel in the same circles?... as far as the Stones go, anyway ;-). Truth be told, I can't think of specifically where I've read that now, and what sources could I have read that you haven't? The only books I really know are Carr, Dalton, and Booth, and it's been a while, so maybe I'm thinking of random capsule reviews either in magazine round-ups or, more likely, Internet talk, as HM suggests. I've definitely seen the interpretation more than once, though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 18:19 by cc.
Ruby Tuesday is fairly straight forward, I think the footage in tandem with Bill's books credit and also the credit on 40 licks is more than proof enough that he did indeed play the piano on the track.
Song/part credits with far less proof have been accepted by the majority without much fuss, given what we know and what we've seen and heard, there's no reason to really question the claim/credit Brian played the piano on Ruby Tuesday. It's most likely that he did!
As for Brian being supposedly shaky in the film, he's messing about at home watcha expect!? Anyway, the stones are mostly shaky in the studio till they hit upon the magic take. Why he would not play piano live in 67!? Pain in the ass to have a piano for one song, he was also obviously proud of his recorder part as he should be as well.
Imo, Brian was a better keyboard player than we(Mathijs and I) previously have given him credit for!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 23:37 by His Majesty.
You mention a credit on 40 Licks -is Brian credited for piano on the 40 Licks CD?
And I agree, he seemed to have been a better keyboard player than we thought. in fact, I have always maintained that there simply was no recording of Brian on piano, whereas there no seem to be 1 or 2 if we include LSTNT.
Mathijs
I still think it's most likely Keith playing both guitars on it, there's just something about the main guitar, but I'm open to the possibility that Brian played the berry/riffing part. His playing during Around and Around at NME 1965 is really similar in many ways.
I don't own the CD, but I was told that he is credited with piano on it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-23 12:04 by His Majesty.
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Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 02:59
Allow me to indulge myself...
For quite awhile, I've generally understood the Between the Buttons period to be the point where Brian started withdrawing from the band both personally and musically. However, recent things have made me question that! Maybe he did start being ''wonky'' as Keith put it during this time, both Keith and Bill have commented on changes in his personality after their 1966 USA tour. His Father said this:
"For many years from the formation of the Stones, up to the end of 1966, Brian was extremely happy. What I firmly believe was the turning point in Brian's life was when he lost the only girl he ever truly loved. He changed suddenly and alarmingly from a bright enthusiastic young man to a quiet, morose, and inward-looking young man. His mother and I were quite shocked by the change in his appearance, and in our opinion, he was never the same boy again. It was at that time I think that he got mixed up with drugs perhaps, if indeed he was."
However, it seems that before these changes really manifested themselves that he was musically as productive, if not more so than ever before. A Degree of Murder soundtrack being a further continuation of this productivity, but most of this creativity and it's impact being knocked back and lessened due to the turbulent months that followed!?
Is Between the Buttons the beginning of his gradual move away from contributing and being a member of the band or is it along with his A Degree of Murder soundtrack a continuation of the personal triumphs recorded during Aftermath sessions!?
Some related ramblings...
Personal revelation part 1:
Ok, even though I'm was very doubtful of Mock Joggers claim that Brian played the main riffing guitar on Miss Amanda Jones, I've spent some time listening close to various live recordings of the band during 1965/66 and the one that stick out the most with regards to the possibility is his playing during Around and Around at the 1965 NME Poll Winners concert.
His guitar is quite upfront, it sounds solid, fat and he's throwing in little licks here and there. What he's playing is pretty damn close in many ways to the main guitar on Miss Amanda Jones. Add the fuzzy tone of a Vox UL-760 and you have 90% of Miss Amanda Jones main guitar right there!
It is a style Keith very much played also, but Brians strong playing when heard so clearly really made me question my long held thoughts about his confidence on guitar.
Dunno what to think now, to my ears it could be either of them playing on MAJ!?
Personal revelation part 2:
Thanks to the lovely footage from January 1967, it's obvious to me now that Brain did indeed play piano on Ruby Tuesday which in itself further supports the claim he had a hand in writing it imo. Anyway, this made me go and listen to the OOPS separates of Let's Spend the Night Together and also watch the band miming it on TOTP's/Ed Sullivan.
It's obvious from the footage that Brian knows how to play LSTNT on piano, he is shown very much to be playing parts that are heard on the record. This may seem an odd concept, but it's sometimes useful and I think this is one of those occasions where it is.
Also, during the rehearsal footage for the sullivan show, there comes a certain point where it sounds like his piano becomes audible(probably from the vocal mic keith was using during Ruby Tuesday) alongside the backing track and what he's apparently playing sounds very much like the record, minus some higher notes...
Interestingly Keith claims to have written the song on piano and also played piano(as well as bass and guitar) on the record, which brings me to something regarding the OOPS separates and the apparently audible live piano on the sullivan rehearsal. On the record at certain points it sounds like someone else is playing higher up the keyboard, kind of doubling some of the lower parts. Could it be that the main pianist was infact Brian with Keith layering at the same time the higher octave parts!?
...
Go easy if you disagree or think this is a load of crap! I've had a few glasses of wine and just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:13 by His Majesty.
For quite awhile, I've generally understood the Between the Buttons period to be the point where Brian started withdrawing from the band both personally and musically. However, recent things have made me question that! Maybe he did start being ''wonky'' as Keith put it during this time, both Keith and Bill have commented on changes in his personality after their 1966 USA tour. His Father said this:
"For many years from the formation of the Stones, up to the end of 1966, Brian was extremely happy. What I firmly believe was the turning point in Brian's life was when he lost the only girl he ever truly loved. He changed suddenly and alarmingly from a bright enthusiastic young man to a quiet, morose, and inward-looking young man. His mother and I were quite shocked by the change in his appearance, and in our opinion, he was never the same boy again. It was at that time I think that he got mixed up with drugs perhaps, if indeed he was."
However, it seems that before these changes really manifested themselves that he was musically as productive, if not more so than ever before. A Degree of Murder soundtrack being a further continuation of this productivity, but most of this creativity and it's impact being knocked back and lessened due to the turbulent months that followed!?
Is Between the Buttons the beginning of his gradual move away from contributing and being a member of the band or is it along with his A Degree of Murder soundtrack a continuation of the personal triumphs recorded during Aftermath sessions!?
Some related ramblings...
Personal revelation part 1:
Ok, even though I'm was very doubtful of Mock Joggers claim that Brian played the main riffing guitar on Miss Amanda Jones, I've spent some time listening close to various live recordings of the band during 1965/66 and the one that stick out the most with regards to the possibility is his playing during Around and Around at the 1965 NME Poll Winners concert.
His guitar is quite upfront, it sounds solid, fat and he's throwing in little licks here and there. What he's playing is pretty damn close in many ways to the main guitar on Miss Amanda Jones. Add the fuzzy tone of a Vox UL-760 and you have 90% of Miss Amanda Jones main guitar right there!
It is a style Keith very much played also, but Brians strong playing when heard so clearly really made me question my long held thoughts about his confidence on guitar.
Dunno what to think now, to my ears it could be either of them playing on MAJ!?
Personal revelation part 2:
Thanks to the lovely footage from January 1967, it's obvious to me now that Brain did indeed play piano on Ruby Tuesday which in itself further supports the claim he had a hand in writing it imo. Anyway, this made me go and listen to the OOPS separates of Let's Spend the Night Together and also watch the band miming it on TOTP's/Ed Sullivan.
It's obvious from the footage that Brian knows how to play LSTNT on piano, he is shown very much to be playing parts that are heard on the record. This may seem an odd concept, but it's sometimes useful and I think this is one of those occasions where it is.
Also, during the rehearsal footage for the sullivan show, there comes a certain point where it sounds like his piano becomes audible(probably from the vocal mic keith was using during Ruby Tuesday) alongside the backing track and what he's apparently playing sounds very much like the record, minus some higher notes...
Interestingly Keith claims to have written the song on piano and also played piano(as well as bass and guitar) on the record, which brings me to something regarding the OOPS separates and the apparently audible live piano on the sullivan rehearsal. On the record at certain points it sounds like someone else is playing higher up the keyboard, kind of doubling some of the lower parts. Could it be that the main pianist was infact Brian with Keith layering at the same time the higher octave parts!?
...
Go easy if you disagree or think this is a load of crap! I've had a few glasses of wine and just wanted to put my thoughts out there.
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:13 by His Majesty.
Re: August 1966 - February 1967: Brians most productive period!?
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: February 18, 2010 04:05
if it really is brian on main guitar on "MAJ," that really adds a wrinkle to the usual interpretation that the song is about him!
Re: August 1966 - February 1967: Brians most productive period!?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 04:07
Quote
cc
if it really is brian on main guitar on "MAJ," that really adds a wrinkle to the usual interpretation that the song is about him!
Other than the last name, what is there out there that really backs up that claim!?
Re: August 1966 - February 1967: Brians most productive period!?
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: February 18, 2010 04:10
Quote
His MajestyQuote
cc
if it really is brian on main guitar on "MAJ," that really adds a wrinkle to the usual interpretation that the song is about him!
Other than the last name, what is there out there that really backs up that claim!?
yeah, that's what I've tended to think! I mean it might be a swipe at brian, but otherwise it sounds like all of the other anti-rich girl rants of this period of mick's(?) writing. It's yet another mirror in the mythology around brian--people looking into it generally see (or hear) what they already want to believe. And there's just enough evidence to make several interpretations plausible.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 04:11 by cc.
Re: August 1966 - February 1967: Brians most productive period!?
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 04:20
Quote
cc
It's yet another mirror in the mythology around brian--people looking into it generally see (or hear) what they already want to believe. And there's just enough evidence to make several interpretations plausible.
Hmm, this could apply to my initial post hah!
Re: August 1966 - February 1967: Brians most productive period!?
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: February 18, 2010 04:31
well I wouldn't mind if you were right anyway! off to listen to BtB through the cans...
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
René
()
Date: February 18, 2010 10:22
Quote
His Majesty
Interestingly Keith claims to have written the song on piano and also played piano(as well as bass and guitar) on the record, which brings me to something regarding the OOPS separates and the apparently audible live piano on the sullivan rehearsal. On the record at certain points it sounds like someone else is playing higher up the keyboard, kind of doubling some of the lower parts. Could it be that the main pianist was infact Brian with Keith layering at the same time the higher octave parts!?
...
Well, I do hear two pianos on Let's Spend The Night Together and several sources mention Jack Nitzsche and Keith on piano. So maybe it's Brian and Keith on piano?
René
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: February 18, 2010 10:23
Hmm, never occurred to me that MAJ was a swipe at Brian, but now that you mentioned it, it makes some sense when you consider the lyrics ("she looks quite delightfully stoned", "hey girl, don't you realize the money invested in you", etc.)
It seems Brian was very musically engaged all the way through 1967, even if mainly on instruments other than guitar. He looks quite lost in "One Plus One" and very far gone in "Rock & Roll Circus".
It seems Brian was very musically engaged all the way through 1967, even if mainly on instruments other than guitar. He looks quite lost in "One Plus One" and very far gone in "Rock & Roll Circus".
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 18, 2010 10:34
>> the usual interpretation that the song is about him! <<
never heard that one! in what circles is it the "usual" interpretation?
(i'm not sure i want to know, so please be judicious!)
>> during the rehearsal footage for the Sullivan show, there comes a certain point where it sounds like his piano becomes audible <<
can you explain this bit again, HM? there's Sullivan rehearsal footage where Brian is playing piano on Ruby Tuesday??
what i have has Keith at the piano with Brian on recorder, and it's a vocals+playback scenario
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:17 by with sssoul.
never heard that one! in what circles is it the "usual" interpretation?
(i'm not sure i want to know, so please be judicious!)
>> during the rehearsal footage for the Sullivan show, there comes a certain point where it sounds like his piano becomes audible <<
can you explain this bit again, HM? there's Sullivan rehearsal footage where Brian is playing piano on Ruby Tuesday??
what i have has Keith at the piano with Brian on recorder, and it's a vocals+playback scenario
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:17 by with sssoul.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 12:06
Quote
René
Well, I do hear two pianos on Let's Spend The Night Together and several sources mention Jack Nitzsche and Keith on piano. So maybe it's Brian and Keith on piano?
René
This is the thing, that credit could be down to ' the power of the internet'. I don't think anyone has actually been mentioned as the pianist on that song by the band or ALO etc in print or interview aside from Keith claiming he played it.
It's obvious that some web sites credits are influenced by what is discussed here, and Jack seemed to be the most likely cos a lot of folks are of the belief(including me before) that Brian had nothing to do with it nor could actually play it. Seems I was wrong.
Quote
with sssoul
can you explain this bit again, HM? there's Sullivan rehearsal footage where Brian is playing piano on Ruby Tuesday??
what i have has Keith at the piano with Brian on recorder, and it's a vocals+playback scenario
It's on a dvd a very kind forum member sent me a couple of years ago.
As well as the aired performances, it features what is entitled rehearsals of them playing Ruby and Night, Brian plays piano on Night and it's during this rehearsal that the piano seems to become audible probably through the mic on the piano which Keith used for vocals during Ruby.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:38 by His Majesty.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 18, 2010 12:11
... i'm still confused, HM - i thought you were talking about Brian being on piano on Ruby Tuesday,
but now it sounds like you mean LStNT. pass the caffeine while i dust off my DVD :E
but now it sounds like you mean LStNT. pass the caffeine while i dust off my DVD :E
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 12:15
Quote
with sssoul
... i'm still confused, HM - i thought you were talking about Brian being on piano on Ruby Tuesday,
but now it sounds like you mean LStNT. pass the caffeine while i dust off my DVD :E
No, no, I mean on LSTNT, I've edited my post a bit to make that clearer. Hey it was late and I'd had a few.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
with sssoul
()
Date: February 18, 2010 12:23
ohhhh all right then - so i've edited mine as well to make it clearer what i thought you meant.
so you're saying that the january 67 footage from Courtfield Road leads you to think Brian played piano on Ruby Tuesday,
and - in a separate speculative venture - the Sullivan rehearsal leads you to think he played it on LStNT as well.
am i following you properly now?
so you're saying that the january 67 footage from Courtfield Road leads you to think Brian played piano on Ruby Tuesday,
and - in a separate speculative venture - the Sullivan rehearsal leads you to think he played it on LStNT as well.
am i following you properly now?
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 12:33
Quote
with sssoul
ohhhh all right then - so i've edited mine as well to make it clearer what i thought you meant.
so you're saying that the january 67 footage from Courtfield Road leads you to think Brian played piano on Ruby Tuesday,
and - in a separate speculative venture - the Sullivan rehearsal leads you to think he played it on LStNT as well.
am i following you properly now?
You are.
The Courtfield footage in tandem with Bill's crediting Brian with piano on Ruby Tuesday makes it seem very likely.
This gives us some idea that Brian was active on piano during the sessions.
Then there's the sullivan footage with possible audible live piano, the TOTP's footage which gives us some clear shots of what Brian's playing(miming) for the song. The way in which he's shown to play it and also the 2 piano player scenario opens things up to it possibly being Brian playing main piano with Keith adding higher octaves.
I'm not aware of any of the band crediting Jack with piano on LSTNT, I just assumed it was him, given the above why not Brian and Keith!?
Stretching things too far!?
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 12:43 by His Majesty.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
René
()
Date: February 18, 2010 13:43
OK, I go for Brian and Keith on piano for Let's Spend The Night Together and Brian on piano for Ruby Tuesday. Thanks His Majesty!
René
René
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: February 18, 2010 16:58
Quote
with sssoul
>> the usual interpretation that the song is about him! <<
never heard that one! in what circles is it the "usual" interpretation?
(i'm not sure i want to know, so please be judicious!)
heh, why, don't we travel in the same circles?... as far as the Stones go, anyway ;-). Truth be told, I can't think of specifically where I've read that now, and what sources could I have read that you haven't? The only books I really know are Carr, Dalton, and Booth, and it's been a while, so maybe I'm thinking of random capsule reviews either in magazine round-ups or, more likely, Internet talk, as HM suggests. I've definitely seen the interpretation more than once, though.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 18:19 by cc.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
rootsman
()
Date: February 18, 2010 18:22
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and knowledge, His Majesty!
This period really seems to be Brian´s last major musical creative one within the Stones.
Sure, he added some great things later on as well, but that appears to be more sporadic.
I remember reading (a long time ago, don´t know where) that Keith said he and Brian grew closer again for the last time during the autumn of 1966,
and collaborated more musically as well.
When Anita and Keith got together the Brian/Keith relationship deterioriated, personally and musically.
(I´m not going into Brian´s personal problems/drugs etc. here)
Ruby Tuesday is probably the major achievement of Brian/Keith working together in this period, regardless of whether Brian "wrote" it or not.
What about the other Stones tracks?
Of course, I don´t know how (much) Brian was involved in the creation/arrangements of them.
Anyway, here´s a list of what I believe Brian played during this period within the Stones:
(not forgetting A Degree of Murder!)
The ones with ? I´m less sure of...
GUITAR: Have You Seen Your Mother / Please Go Home? / Miss Amanda Jones? / Get Yourself Together?
HARMONICA: Who´s Driving Your Plane / Who´s Been Sleeping Here?
DULCIMER: Cool, Calm, Collected / If You Let Me? (“Aftermath” sessions?)
RECORDER: Ruby Tuesday / All Sold Out
ORGAN: Complicated / Backstreet Girl? / Let´s Spend The Night Together?
PIANO: Ruby Tuesday / Let´s Spend The Night Together?
VIBRAPHONE and/or XYLOPHONE: Yesterday´s Papers
ACCORDION?: Backstreet Girl
SAX and/or TROMBONE: Something Happened To Me Yesterday
Other BRASS?: Something Happened To Me Yesterday
KAZOO: Trouble In Mind / Cool, Calm, Collected?
GLOCKENSPIEL?: Backstreet Girl
PERCUSSION: Connection(tambourine) / ?
Remember, these are my thoughts/beliefs. I have no proof, as I wasn´t at the sessions.
But, I have listened to (and watched) the Stones since I was 10 years old in 1965.
I´ve read most relevant books and checked the important sites. There are , and will be, contradictions on who played what.
One reason for him not playing more guitar here could be his broken hand/wrist, which was after the August sessions but before the main November sessions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 18:30 by rootsman.
This period really seems to be Brian´s last major musical creative one within the Stones.
Sure, he added some great things later on as well, but that appears to be more sporadic.
I remember reading (a long time ago, don´t know where) that Keith said he and Brian grew closer again for the last time during the autumn of 1966,
and collaborated more musically as well.
When Anita and Keith got together the Brian/Keith relationship deterioriated, personally and musically.
(I´m not going into Brian´s personal problems/drugs etc. here)
Ruby Tuesday is probably the major achievement of Brian/Keith working together in this period, regardless of whether Brian "wrote" it or not.
What about the other Stones tracks?
Of course, I don´t know how (much) Brian was involved in the creation/arrangements of them.
Anyway, here´s a list of what I believe Brian played during this period within the Stones:
(not forgetting A Degree of Murder!)
The ones with ? I´m less sure of...
GUITAR: Have You Seen Your Mother / Please Go Home? / Miss Amanda Jones? / Get Yourself Together?
HARMONICA: Who´s Driving Your Plane / Who´s Been Sleeping Here?
DULCIMER: Cool, Calm, Collected / If You Let Me? (“Aftermath” sessions?)
RECORDER: Ruby Tuesday / All Sold Out
ORGAN: Complicated / Backstreet Girl? / Let´s Spend The Night Together?
PIANO: Ruby Tuesday / Let´s Spend The Night Together?
VIBRAPHONE and/or XYLOPHONE: Yesterday´s Papers
ACCORDION?: Backstreet Girl
SAX and/or TROMBONE: Something Happened To Me Yesterday
Other BRASS?: Something Happened To Me Yesterday
KAZOO: Trouble In Mind / Cool, Calm, Collected?
GLOCKENSPIEL?: Backstreet Girl
PERCUSSION: Connection(tambourine) / ?
Remember, these are my thoughts/beliefs. I have no proof, as I wasn´t at the sessions.
But, I have listened to (and watched) the Stones since I was 10 years old in 1965.
I´ve read most relevant books and checked the important sites. There are , and will be, contradictions on who played what.
One reason for him not playing more guitar here could be his broken hand/wrist, which was after the August sessions but before the main November sessions.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 18:30 by rootsman.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 18, 2010 19:13
Mostly going by what we hear is a messy and unreliable business, still kinda interesting seeing what folks come up with though. Even if things are wrong, the discussions do sometimes end up revealing some small quote hidden away somewhere which sheds more light on things.
...
At the time, Keith had this to say about Brians hand troubles and the upcoming UK tour.
NME - 23rd September 1966
''He could play slowly with the band while we were doing the Ed Sullivan show - I think he'll manage the tour all right!''.
Going back to the piano on BtB's for a bit. Some tracks feature quite involved piano playing others basic block chords throughout, then there's the more obvious boogie woogie Stu parts.
Stu on Cool, Calm, Collected - My Obsession and Miss Amanda Jones!?
Stu is credited by some sites as being on piano for most of the tracks, I do not agree with that, I think it's more likely that he's on the aforementioned 3 songs only, possibly on All Sold Out too!?
Keith claims to have played piano on She Smiled Sweetly, whilst Mick says it was Jack. Keith also claims to have played piano on Let's Spend the Night Together. Seems likely that he did, but in tandem with someone else. Btw, Mick credits Keith with the kazoo on C,C,C.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 19:17 by His Majesty.
...
At the time, Keith had this to say about Brians hand troubles and the upcoming UK tour.
NME - 23rd September 1966
''He could play slowly with the band while we were doing the Ed Sullivan show - I think he'll manage the tour all right!''.
Going back to the piano on BtB's for a bit. Some tracks feature quite involved piano playing others basic block chords throughout, then there's the more obvious boogie woogie Stu parts.
Stu on Cool, Calm, Collected - My Obsession and Miss Amanda Jones!?
Stu is credited by some sites as being on piano for most of the tracks, I do not agree with that, I think it's more likely that he's on the aforementioned 3 songs only, possibly on All Sold Out too!?
Keith claims to have played piano on She Smiled Sweetly, whilst Mick says it was Jack. Keith also claims to have played piano on Let's Spend the Night Together. Seems likely that he did, but in tandem with someone else. Btw, Mick credits Keith with the kazoo on C,C,C.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-18 19:17 by His Majesty.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Green Lady
()
Date: February 18, 2010 19:32
I think that if you aren't misled by the name-coincidence, there's a much likelier Between The Buttons candidate than Miss Amanda Jones for being "about Brian" (if any of them are):
Well she's very wealthy, it's true
So in that she is one up one you
She's dressed all in red, white and blue
And she always knows more than you do
She knows who to smile to today
She has just been brought up in that way
She knows all the right games to play
And she always just knows what to say
In public the strain's hard to bear
She exudes such a confident air
But behind she is not without care
But she sweeps it right under her hair
She seems to glow brilliantly white
And her hair seems to shine in the night
With her feet unbelievably light
And her teeth ready, sharpened to bite
This is not received wisdom in any circles but my own imagination, by the way.
Great thread!
Well she's very wealthy, it's true
So in that she is one up one you
She's dressed all in red, white and blue
And she always knows more than you do
She knows who to smile to today
She has just been brought up in that way
She knows all the right games to play
And she always just knows what to say
In public the strain's hard to bear
She exudes such a confident air
But behind she is not without care
But she sweeps it right under her hair
She seems to glow brilliantly white
And her hair seems to shine in the night
With her feet unbelievably light
And her teeth ready, sharpened to bite
This is not received wisdom in any circles but my own imagination, by the way.
Great thread!
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
neptune
()
Date: February 21, 2010 21:11
Great analysis, HM. You make a very good point about Miss Amanda Jones.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: February 22, 2010 22:52
I need to listen again to MAJ and compare it to A&A from NME. I find A&A to be much more crude and static compared to how I remember the riff to MAJ -smooth, playing around with the timing.
Concerning the piano of RT -I am not a piano player and I can not judge how difficult the part is. Is it something that should have been played by a skilled player like Nitzsche, or is it indeed something Brian could have done? Brian sounds a bit shaky at the start of the piano bit in the movie, or not? Is it his part, or did he learn it to play live on stage for the upcoming promo's or even upcoming tour? Why didn't he play piano on it live in '67? And last, isn't Nitzsche credited on piano on the Singles Collection or 40 Licks CD?
Mathijs
Concerning the piano of RT -I am not a piano player and I can not judge how difficult the part is. Is it something that should have been played by a skilled player like Nitzsche, or is it indeed something Brian could have done? Brian sounds a bit shaky at the start of the piano bit in the movie, or not? Is it his part, or did he learn it to play live on stage for the upcoming promo's or even upcoming tour? Why didn't he play piano on it live in '67? And last, isn't Nitzsche credited on piano on the Singles Collection or 40 Licks CD?
Mathijs
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 22, 2010 23:19
Quote
Mathijs
Concerning the piano of RT -I am not a piano player and I can not judge how difficult the part is. Is it something that should have been played by a skilled player like Nitzsche, or is it indeed something Brian could have done? Brian sounds a bit shaky at the start of the piano bit in the movie, or not? Is it his part, or did he learn it to play live on stage for the upcoming promo's or even upcoming tour? Why didn't he play piano on it live in '67? And last, isn't Nitzsche credited on piano on the Singles Collection or 40 Licks CD?
Mathijs
Ruby Tuesday is fairly straight forward, I think the footage in tandem with Bill's books credit and also the credit on 40 licks is more than proof enough that he did indeed play the piano on the track.
Song/part credits with far less proof have been accepted by the majority without much fuss, given what we know and what we've seen and heard, there's no reason to really question the claim/credit Brian played the piano on Ruby Tuesday. It's most likely that he did!
As for Brian being supposedly shaky in the film, he's messing about at home watcha expect!? Anyway, the stones are mostly shaky in the studio till they hit upon the magic take. Why he would not play piano live in 67!? Pain in the ass to have a piano for one song, he was also obviously proud of his recorder part as he should be as well.
Imo, Brian was a better keyboard player than we(Mathijs and I) previously have given him credit for!
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-22 23:37 by His Majesty.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
stones40
()
Date: February 22, 2010 23:37
Friend of Brian fashion model 'Amanda Lear' changed into Miss Amanda Jones
Check the song lyrics and they all fit.
Check the song lyrics and they all fit.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
cc
()
Date: February 23, 2010 02:18
I would agree that brian sounds iffy at the beginning of the Courtfield footage, playing haltingly from chord to chord. But eventually he lets rip with the whole part and it sounds quite nice--too bad mick & keith didn't join in singing! So I'm more than willing to believe that it's brian on piano on the track. Of course it still could be Nitzsche. But it's more appealing to think it's brian!
But more so, what a lost opportunity, if the Stones had found a way to keep brian and his creativity in the group. Most of the rock world turned back to basics in the late 60s (following Dylan), then there's the prog genre which was maybe a reaction to that--clearly the Stones as a mega-selling act, and with a mainly conservative keith, were never going to go too far down that road. So if they had managed to keep blending bluesy rock with exotic touches... truly strange & brilliant songs like "Monkey Man" and "Moonlight Mile" might have become the norm rather than the exception.
But more so, what a lost opportunity, if the Stones had found a way to keep brian and his creativity in the group. Most of the rock world turned back to basics in the late 60s (following Dylan), then there's the prog genre which was maybe a reaction to that--clearly the Stones as a mega-selling act, and with a mainly conservative keith, were never going to go too far down that road. So if they had managed to keep blending bluesy rock with exotic touches... truly strange & brilliant songs like "Monkey Man" and "Moonlight Mile" might have become the norm rather than the exception.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: February 23, 2010 11:41
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
Concerning the piano of RT -I am not a piano player and I can not judge how difficult the part is. Is it something that should have been played by a skilled player like Nitzsche, or is it indeed something Brian could have done? Brian sounds a bit shaky at the start of the piano bit in the movie, or not? Is it his part, or did he learn it to play live on stage for the upcoming promo's or even upcoming tour? Why didn't he play piano on it live in '67? And last, isn't Nitzsche credited on piano on the Singles Collection or 40 Licks CD?
Mathijs
Ruby Tuesday is fairly straight forward, I think the footage in tandem with Bill's books credit and also the credit on 40 licks is more than proof enough that he did indeed play the piano on the track.
Song/part credits with far less proof have been accepted by the majority without much fuss, given what we know and what we've seen and heard, there's no reason to really question the claim/credit Brian played the piano on Ruby Tuesday. It's most likely that he did!
As for Brian being supposedly shaky in the film, he's messing about at home watcha expect!? Anyway, the stones are mostly shaky in the studio till they hit upon the magic take. Why he would not play piano live in 67!? Pain in the ass to have a piano for one song, he was also obviously proud of his recorder part as he should be as well.
Imo, Brian was a better keyboard player than we(Mathijs and I) previously have given him credit for!
You mention a credit on 40 Licks -is Brian credited for piano on the 40 Licks CD?
And I agree, he seemed to have been a better keyboard player than we thought. in fact, I have always maintained that there simply was no recording of Brian on piano, whereas there no seem to be 1 or 2 if we include LSTNT.
Mathijs
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 23, 2010 11:43
Quote
Mathijs
I need to listen again to MAJ and compare it to A&A from NME. I find A&A to be much more crude and static compared to how I remember the riff to MAJ -smooth, playing around with the timing.
I still think it's most likely Keith playing both guitars on it, there's just something about the main guitar, but I'm open to the possibility that Brian played the berry/riffing part. His playing during Around and Around at NME 1965 is really similar in many ways.
Quote
Mathijs
You mention a credit on 40 Licks -is Brian credited for piano on the 40 Licks CD?
And I agree, he seemed to have been a better keyboard player than we thought. in fact, I have always maintained that there simply was no recording of Brian on piano, whereas there no seem to be 1 or 2 if we include LSTNT.
Mathijs
I don't own the CD, but I was told that he is credited with piano on it.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-23 12:04 by His Majesty.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: February 23, 2010 12:21
The March edition of PLAYBOY 
has a large story of Brian Jones by Robert Greenfield titled "The Rise and Fall of First Rock Star". It says that Brian's mother was a piano teacher, and that Brian started to take piano lessons from her when he was six old, and he learned to read music and was able to play Chopin and Bach before shifted to clarinet and alto sax as a teenager.
Is that true or bullshit? There are some inaccuracies in the article - even though I enjoy the tone of it - so this makes me wonder of its accuracy.
I mean if that is true then Brian playing the piano part in "Ruby Tuesday" should not be an issue at all if he technically were able to do it or not. One does need much training to accomplish that. Does anyone know more of Brian's early training in music? I mean if one has began a proper and systematic 'training' in music as six years old, that seemingly is a quite difference compared to people like Mick and Keith who were interested in music not until they were teenagers, and even then do it "a rock and roll way" - just listening to records, strumming guitar, and learning more or less by ear. As Bill has noted he and Brian were the only ones that could read music.
I think that confiorming the fact that Brian's mother were/is a piano teacher is enough to indicate that playing piano wasn't any rocket science for Brian, as it is not anyone who starts taking piano lessons as a young kid.
- Doxa
has a large story of Brian Jones by Robert Greenfield titled "The Rise and Fall of First Rock Star". It says that Brian's mother was a piano teacher, and that Brian started to take piano lessons from her when he was six old, and he learned to read music and was able to play Chopin and Bach before shifted to clarinet and alto sax as a teenager.Is that true or bullshit? There are some inaccuracies in the article - even though I enjoy the tone of it - so this makes me wonder of its accuracy.
I mean if that is true then Brian playing the piano part in "Ruby Tuesday" should not be an issue at all if he technically were able to do it or not. One does need much training to accomplish that. Does anyone know more of Brian's early training in music? I mean if one has began a proper and systematic 'training' in music as six years old, that seemingly is a quite difference compared to people like Mick and Keith who were interested in music not until they were teenagers, and even then do it "a rock and roll way" - just listening to records, strumming guitar, and learning more or less by ear. As Bill has noted he and Brian were the only ones that could read music.
I think that confiorming the fact that Brian's mother were/is a piano teacher is enough to indicate that playing piano wasn't any rocket science for Brian, as it is not anyone who starts taking piano lessons as a young kid.
- Doxa
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: February 23, 2010 12:39
Didn't Brian play Clarinet and Alto early on? learned the instruments?
I read somewhere that he spent time in Scandinavia before ever even thinking Rolling Stones,playing Jazz. And actually tried to play all that time and events down later on in his rockin career.
I read somewhere that he spent time in Scandinavia before ever even thinking Rolling Stones,playing Jazz. And actually tried to play all that time and events down later on in his rockin career.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: February 23, 2010 12:51
The story about Brian being taught piano at an early age has been around since the band began, it's even in their first official book: Our Own Story - As we told it to Pete Goodman.
Re: Brians creativity: August 1966 - February 1967
Posted by:
Mathijs
()
Date: February 23, 2010 14:07
The have always been claims that Brian was thought piano, could read music and whatever, but was is heard on records have always, until lately that is, been the opposite. There was no known recording of him playing piano, and what we know from organ and mellotron work is that, albeit fantastic in end result, isn't exactly prove of a skilled pianist. Than there also is this Eddie Kramer/Hendrix video fragment, where Kramer totally writes off Jones as anything other than a drugged out wreck.
Mathijs
Mathijs
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