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I have to agree. There is nothing technically difficult about those guitar parts and Keith would have been more than capable of playing them....Quote
His MajestyQuote
Mock Jogger
Leadparts like on Mona or The Last Time (the riff) are technically much harder to play than anything Keith played at the time.
Utter nonsense!
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neptune
Mock Jagger, I have to agree with almost everything you said, particularly the part about Brian's live playing. In almost all live footage of Brian playing guitar, he doesn't make many mistakes. He makes LRR on Ed Sullivan look way too easy- he's smiling and posing for the cameras while playing at the same time! During the '65 NME performance of the Last Time, Brian's playing the signature riff perfectly, all the while having a conversation with Bill. I think the problem is this perception among many people here that Brian's parts were simple. And in making that judgement, Brian's guitar abilities are generally dismissed by many on this site as 'mediocre' or 'shaky'. The mistake in making such judgements, I believe, is basing them on the criterion of playing guitar in 2009. In 1964 and 1965, guitar playing in rock, blues, and folk was rather simple. Even Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck's playing in the Yardbirds up until 1965 was simple in comparison to today's standards. Thus, I think such judgements about Brian's playing are unfair and 'shaky' at best . . .
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Mathijs
utter crap
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His Majesty
Utter nonsense!
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His Majesty
Regarding Regent Sound, circa 1963/64 they had(at the very least) a 2 track Revox.
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His Majesty
But, even by early - mid 1960's standards, aside from his best slide studio recordings, there's nothing out there demonstrating that he could play anything that's above the ability of a guitarist with basic technical abilities.
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neptune
I disagree with that. For the standards of 1964 and 1965, I think Brian was way above having 'basic' technical abilities. Look at all the video clips from that time involving rock, blues, folk, pop, etc. Brian was certainly not a player of just basic talents. Many bands from that time would have loved to have had a guitarist with his talents. Pete Townshend recently stated that he dreamed of playing like Brian back then . . .
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DandelionPowderman
His guitar playing was quite shaky, but he had a good sense of timing. It's called knowing your limitations, not musical professionalism, imo.
Can you please explain how Brian's guitar playing is shaky? Can you provide any specific examples to back up your claim?
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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.
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Zack
Fact is, you can hardly hear Brian in live recordings of the 64-66 era. That says a lot.
For the last time, he was a fair to middling musician who had a facility for picking up new instruments and making fair to middling music on them in a short period of time.
You got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.Quote
neptuneQuote
DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.
This is just healthy debate. Don't be such a bore.
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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
You got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.
Don't really see that shaping up here.
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DeliveranceStraightwayHolinessYou got to be kidding me. A healthy debate is when both sides come with valid points, make their argument based in reality; in the hopes that new viewpoints emerge. Or that one side convinces the other.Quote
neptuneQuote
DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.
This is just healthy debate. Don't be such a bore.
Don't really see that shaping up here.
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vox12string
Brian nailed 'Can't Be Satisfied' & that is far better than a fair to middling piece whilst Keith had Chuck Berry down pat. I think different styles is what we're on about here, & they were both good at what they did.
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DeliveranceStraightwayHoliness
Some of these threads lately defy reason.
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Mock Jogger
Mathijs's trying to make a point. Impressive; but not as impressive as proving his own ears wrong about who played the Tell Me solo.
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Mock Jogger
His Majesty, I'm still waiting for the list of Brian messing up parts live or in the studio.
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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously think the riff on Satisfaction is more complex than the riff on The Last Time?
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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously claim Keith is not messing up his solo part on Off The Hook at the TAMI show (and on many, many other songs around this time)?
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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously consider Keith's Time Is On My Side solo anywhere near the beat of the song? (Both studio versions, though the Chess one is worse than the remake.)
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Mock Jogger
- does anyone here seriously say Keith's solos on It's All Over Now, Time Is On My Side, Heart Of Stone, The Last Time are taylormade for the specific song and could not easily be used on other songs with only slight changes as well (or in other words were actually only slightly changed for other songs)?
I wonder if this was with or without drugs in his body?Quote
His Majesty
But, if you really must hear Brian play guitar badly then listen to the first 5 or so takes of The Lantern from the Satanic Sessions box set. Thin sound, lots of bum notes, questionable tuning and timing.
For further takes Brian is on organ, lots of mistakes there too which is probably why the organ only fades in a few times in the final mix, Keith is on acoustic guitar playing far more solidly and with a better tone than Brian had been.
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neptune
Try viewing NME Pollwinners 1965 where Brian's guitar can clearly be heard. Then go on and take a look at clips of Ed Sullivan May 2, 1965. And for the last time, Brian may not have been MT or Eric Clapton on guitar, but he certainly wasn't a middling player who contributed middling music.
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Mathijs
I would like to turn this discussion around. Instead of looking for mistakes, please name all fantastic, intricate and difficult to play Brian Jones guitar parts that proofs that he had more than basic skills on the guitar. Please name the parts where we all can agree that it would need quite some skill to play it like he did.
Mathijs
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Zack
My question is who is the guy with the long blond hair, shades and hippie threads who introduced them?
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Mock Jogger
His Majesty, aren't you one of the best musicians on the net?
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His MajestyQuote
Mathijs
I would like to turn this discussion around. Instead of looking for mistakes, please name all fantastic, intricate and difficult to play Brian Jones guitar parts that proofs that he had more than basic skills on the guitar. Please name the parts where we all can agree that it would need quite some skill to play it like he did.
Mathijs
Over to you Mock!Quote
Zack
My question is who is the guy with the long blond hair, shades and hippie threads who introduced them?
Disc Jockey, presenter and all round crazy guy Jimmy Saville!
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While Brian could understand Jagger's position by virtue of his role as a singer, he was less inclined to concede any superiority of position to Keith, who was certainly less popular with the fans and who contributed less musical inventivness than Brian to our sound. (Stone Alone, paperback edition, p. 460)
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The tracks were Chuck Berry's 'Carol' and 'Route 66', plus Bo Diddley's 'Mona (I Need You Baby)'. Brian's supremacy and instinctive musicianship was evident on the last track. Even Keith recalled later: 'I've never heard anybody, before or since, get that Bo Diddley thing down. Diddley himself was astounded, saying that Brian was the only cat he knew who'd worked out the secret of it.' (Stone Alone, p. 215-216)
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The first time I met him he had a guitar in his hand. My first impression of him was just of a very good guitar player. (quoted in Stone Alone, p. 434)
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Stones first rolled into my consciousness upon overhearing the immortal meme-like refrain of "The Last Time" on someone else's transistor, a riff from the Gods which burned itself into my brain and wouldn't switch off (Brian played this motif live on his D and G strings, up around the 9th, 7th and 5th frets of his Vox Phantom--not at all what they teach you in "Guitar Player"-- not at all obvious a voicing... and not as easy to play up there as it sounds)...
(See Lucas' blog: April 2008 - you have got to scroll down a bit to Some things just stick in your mind) [garylucas.com]
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That guitar player ain't bad. (Rolling With, p. 129)
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[O]ne night in Coventry [sic] I heard some stinging blues coming out of a dressing room. It was Brian Jones playing the guitar. He was in there all on his own. And the guy was good! We didn't know anybody could play like that in England! (See Chris Welch, The Tina Turner Experience, paperback edition 1994, p. 108)
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the only white cat that ever got my rhythm (Bill Wyman, Rolling With, p. 77)
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That night [3 Oct. 1963] we jammed backstage with Bo Diddley and the Everlys and their band. We did a lot of Elmore James songs, with Brian playing slide. You should have seen Bo's face when Brian pulled off the licks perfectly. (Rolling With, p. 83)
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His MajestyQuote
Mock Jogger
His Majesty, aren't you one of the best musicians on the net?
I don't think I am, but you can judge for yourself...