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neptune
I've always believed that the LT riff is the mother of all rock riffs, including Satisfaction.

not "You Really Got Me," by the Kinks?

Yes, there's You Really Got Me and the Beatles' I Feel Fine, which predate The Last Time. But the LT riff is far more sophisticated and influential than both of them. And I also would say Brian's slide on I Wanna Be Your Man beat the Kinks' YRGM to the punch as the first recorded exhibit of punk-rock guitar.

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neptune


This is precisely why I believe Brian played the lead lines to Sittin On A Fence! The lines repeat throughout the entire song, a classic Brian trait. If you look at most songs where Brian plays lead and shines such as PIB, LT, Lady Jane, No Expectations, GOOMC, Mercy, Mercy, Under My Thumb, etc, he plays the same exact lead notes over and over again. The same thing happens on the acoustic lead motif on Fence, it just repeats itself. Therefore, it's my belief that Brian plays that acoustic lead. And for those out there who would say that Brian never played acoustic guitar, how then can we explain the hundreds of pictures of him strumming one?

First of all, the guitars on SOAF require much better ability on guitar to play than the basic single line on GOOMC, or motif on TLT. Not saying it's not him, just pointing out that there is a big difference between the parts. If it is Brian, I'd say it's one of his best non slide guitar performances on record. Perhaps the pics of Brian and Keith sitting close to one another with acoustics circa 1966 is from the SOAF session.

Also, you've used the exact same logic with regards to the slide on Jigsaw Puzzle, but the session CD reveals it's Keith who played that.

Who says he never played acoustic!? First example I can think of would be You Better Move On.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-07 00:19 by His Majesty.

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neptune
Yes, there's You Really Got Me and the Beatles' I Feel Fine, which predate The Last Time. But the LT riff is far more sophisticated and influential than both of them.

there's no way to argue with claims about "influence." If you want to believe that one riff had more influence than another, then you will. Same as you will believe what musicians say about brian when it confirms what you already believe.

I never buy claims about pre-punkiness. Ahistorical.

your religious devotion to the concept of brian's supposedly suppressed greatness is fascinating... I prefer the notion of the Stones as a group whose sum was more than any of its parts, but that's just me. I'd suggest that you'd be happier if you simply enjoyed what brian actually did rather than what you hope he must have done--but I don't know, maybe for some reason you're actually happier this way. So dream on!

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cc
your religious devotion to the concept of brian's supposedly suppressed greatness is fascinating...

I know, I'm some crackpot, nutty fan of Brian Jones who has no clue about reality. Yet, there are legions of adoring fans of Mick and Keith on this forum, but they're ok people with no sorts of mental problems whatsoever.

sure, most fans are irrational to an extent--that goes with the definition of being a fan. But there's vastly more evidence of what mick and keith have actually been capable of over almost 50 years. There's an element of mystery--a religious term, originally--around brian's contributions that wouldn't be possible had he started his career today.

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neptune

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Mathijs
Would you be able to post the quotes by all mentioned artist above?

Muddy Waters, 1964 at Chess (multiple sources)- "Now, that one over there ain't bad!"

Bo Diddley, during his tour with Stones in England, 1964 ('Rolling Stones: The Black and White Years')- "He's the only cat I know that's got it."

John Lennon, upon meeting Brian for the first time after a Stones show, 1963 (I believe Alan Clayson's 'Brian Jones')- "That's great. How do you play like that?"

Pete Townshend, 2009 (UNCUT)- "I wished I played like him."

Jimmy Page, 2009 (MOJO)- "Brian Jones was an authentic Chicago blues player."

These quotes don't say anything, do they? They don't say anything about the technical abilities of Brian. Sure, everyone wanted to be Brian in '63 and '64, he was a Chicago blues player, and I would have asked the same question as Lennon meeting Brian concerning as he was a decent slide player.

This is the exact reason why these quotes mean so little, and I prefer to trust my ears and own opinion.

It's a bit the same with quotes that Brian was a trained piano player, while to date no recording of him on piano has surfaced, and recordings of him on other keyboard instruments show that he was amateuristic at best. Should I believe the quotes that he was a trained piano player or not?

Mathijs

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neptune

I know, I'm some crackpot, nutty fan of Brian Jones who has no clue about reality. Yet, there are legions of adoring fans of Mick and Keith on this forum, but they're ok people with no sorts of mental problems whatsoever.

Most folks here are Rolling Stones fans, not Mick and Keith exclusively, although obviously they are a very important part of the band as was Brian.

Are you actually a fan of the band, or just the bits you think Brian played cos that's what a lot of OTT so called Brain fans seem to do!?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-07 11:59 by His Majesty.

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Mathijs
... and recordings of him on other keyboard instruments show that he was amateuristic at best.

Save for his mellotron work which is as cool, if not cooler than anyone elses use of the instrument.

IMO of course.

>> Bo Diddley, during his tour with Stones in England, 1964
('Rolling Stones: The Black and White Years') <<

the tour was in 1963, not 1964, the book is called The Rolling Stones: Black & White Blues (not "years" )
i know Bo said something like "Brian's the only white cat i know who can play my stuff right"
(but i'm not sure that's actually in that book).

Muddy Waters's statement about the Stones is normally quoted as: "the guitarist ain't half bad",
but as someone's already noted you don't know which guitarist he meant.

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behroez

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neptune
I disagree with this. I think Brian Jones was a good guitarist. Muddy Waters, Bo Diddley, John Lennon, Pete Townshend, George Harrison, Bob Dylan, Jimmy Page, and Keith Richards himself (individuals who personally knew and witnessed his playing and were guitar legends themselves) have all gone on record complimenting his guitar-playing abilities. Brian was no MT or Eric Clapton, but he was a good guiatrist who was way ahead of his times fusing blues slide and rock n roll along with creating monster riffs such as The Last Time. I've always believed that the LT riff is the mother of all rock riffs, including Satisfaction. The real myth here is that Brian was a bad to middling guitarist . . .

Very, very interresting observation. and i think that you are absolutely right. The first compositions of the glimmers are more or less based on a melody played on the accoustic rhythm guitar using the traditional method of guitar accords, even Keith's part on the Last time is a melody on the rhythm guitar. It is indeed Brian that for the first time played a "riff" (the Last time). And it became the first Glimmer composition that became a hit for the Stones themselves. I am sure now, that Keith must have scratched his head and thought, "right, that's the way to do it, not with a melody based on guitar accords, but a riff, Eureka! Brian! You solved the puzzle!". And since than Keith started playing around looking for riffs, and out came Satisfaction, Get off of My Cloud etc. all based on a guitar riff. You are brilliant Neptune, i would never have seen that, I mean ofcourse i noticed that it was Brian that played that riff, but just never added it up that it was the example laid down by Brian, being followed by Keith, in other words without Brian's invention we would never have had the hits that followed that line of approach. And if this is true (which i believe it is) the Stones owe more to Brian Jones that just the name and R&B cover time.
As far as the comments of different people that Brian wasn't a good guitarist is concerned, it totally contradicts all the stories relating to how the Stones started. When Mick and Keith started meeting this guitarist who impressed them with his blues playing ability. And the story that it was Brian who taught Keith how to play those blues songs they listened to at their place.

The 'riff' to TLT technically spoken is not a riff but a theme, and the song is build up as many songs from the early 30's to date, with intro, verse, chorus, theme, verse, chorus, theme etc. It's not something Brian, Keith, Stones, Beatles or whomever invented in the early 60's. Just listen to '50's Chicago blues for many examples if this. However, guitar riffs became more prominent in the mid-60's just due to the sheer amount of guitar driven bands emerging.

I don't really understand how the 'riff' to TLT can mean so much to some people. It's a nice little riff, easy to play, and in my opinion the brilliance lies in how it is recorded and how it is placed as the intro: in the middle of the spectrum, loud, piercing and sneering. That is as much the credit of the producer as it is credit for Brian or the Stones. In my opinion this is also true for Satisfaction. It's actually a bit bland sounding, but the fuzz and how it is produced makes it the monster riff it is. The same with the I Wanna Be Your Man solo -it's simple, and the rendition is a bit shaky, but the treble booster and the sheer aggresion of Brian's approach makes it a stand-out solo.

Whether TL or You Really Got Me is the better riff is down to personal opinion, but undoubtly YRGM has had much, much more influence on rock music than TLT.

Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
... and recordings of him on other keyboard instruments show that he was amateuristic at best.

Save for his mellotron work which is as cool, if not cooler than anyone elses use of the instrument.

IMO of course.

Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I don't really understand how the 'riff' to TLT can mean so much to some people. It's a nice little riff, easy to play, and in my opinion the brilliance lies in how it is recorded and how it is placed as the intro: in the middle of the spectrum, loud, piercing and sneering. That is as much the credit of the producer as it is credit for Brian or the Stones.
Mathijs

Perhaps you don't get it because you were not around when the song made the difference. So it is good to listen the actual people who were around (no, I wasn't, but I am highly interested of how the people heard the band at the time. That's the real impact.) Most of the people who were listening it were not first thinking in terms of it is being any technical piece of wonder or not, but were absolutely stunned of how it sounds. That riff is the first real indication of the originalty of the style of Stones that would last, and actually make them compete with The Beatles in their own terms. In US it would take "Satisfaction" to make this point home, but in Europe it was "The Last Time", For example, in their home ground - UK - it is their best selling single ever.

When the Stones played in Helsinki last time around, there were a radio broadcast of some musicians talking about the Stones whole night through. Especially I remeber they talking about the riff of "The Last Time" making the impact at the time. That was the riff, more than the one of "Satisfaction", that defined The Stones to young lads and wanna-be musicians and encourage them to write stuff of their own.

"That is as much the credit of the producer as it is credit for Brian or the Stones."

I don't understand what this sentence tries to say? What does it matter who takes the credit? It is the final product that matters and makes the difference. The Stones, if anyone, has always been true masters in knowing this little fact. For eaxmple, the first impression of Mick Taylor - the only technically competent member of the Stones ever - when getting touch with the Stones was that how come these seemingly lousy musicians can make such great records.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-07 13:49 by Doxa.

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neptune
Even Eric Clapton and Jeff Beck's playing in the Yardbirds up until 1965 was simple in comparison to today's standards. Thus, I think such judgements about Brian's playing are unfair and 'shaky' at best . . .

Agreed about Brian.But the difference between Beck and Clapton is that
Jeff is still an up to date guitar player
while Clapton fell asleep 40 years ago, (not as a composer).

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neptune
I know, I'm some crackpot, nutty fan of Brian Jones who has no clue about reality.

Ah, me too. We have not yet understood that what Mick and Keith tell us about the Stones is the true story about the band and Brian. Everybody who says something different are bloody liars. Brian was just a horrible and envy drug addict with no musical talent. He couldn't write music and he couldn't really play any instruments either. He was just lucky that he was allowed to be in the Rolling Stones for so long after he lost his power.

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Mathijs
Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

Eh...what? Brian didn't go "Bungalow Bill" on the instrument. He plays what you hear on the songs. There are no loops inside the mellotron that sound like that. I know it doesn't fit the image of Brian being talentless but it's the truth.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-07 13:02 by tonterapi.

The musical power of the Stones is the sum of 5 musicians having that rare chemistry.. and with a little help from producers and session players. I never understood why the Stones sounded like the Stones in a way..great composers though.
As individuals they where all amateurish.with the exception of Taylor (in fact a session player) and Jagger.
That was their weakness and their power.

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Amsterdamned
The musical power of the Stones is the sum of 5 musicians having that rare chemistry.. and with a little help from producers and session players. I never understood why the Stones sounded like the Stones in a way..great composers though.
As individuals they where all amateurish.with the exception of Taylor (in fact a session player) and Jagger.
That was their weakness and their power.

Exactly. And as I argued some pages ago, it was Brian's example of how to make simple things impressive that it is very crucial to Stones 'magic'. Keith's riff of "Satisfaction" is the most remarkable piece of this philosophy ever.

Anyway, I never get really the point of claiming Brian to be a great musician or not. The secret of the Stones has never been technical excellence,so why Brian should be treated with different criterion?

For example, Keith Richards is quite lousy guitar player in any traditional sense if we try to use any objectice criteria here. Yeah, he has a style of his own, and all that, but his uniqueness and liminess as a guitarist is mostly based on personal idiocracy than a chosen, intentional decisions. Those instincts and intuitions Keith has, including his sense of timing, should not be confused with technical complexity. As a guitar player Keith is like John Lee Hooker. His style is unique, but it has not anything to do with technical excellence.

Of course, now comes a league of posts to counter my claim, but in the end, I think every guitarist recognizes the point I make here. There are techically better guitarists in our local pubs than anything Keith has represented during his career. But that also tells how little the 'pure' tecnical excellency has to do with the Rolling Stones, and perhaps, in rock music, or any great music ever, over-all.

- Doxa

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Doxa

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Amsterdamned
The musical power of the Stones is the sum of 5 musicians having that rare chemistry.. and with a little help from producers and session players. I never understood why the Stones sounded like the Stones in a way..great composers though.
As individuals they where all amateurish.with the exception of Taylor (in fact a session player) and Jagger.
That was their weakness and their power.

Exactly. And as I argued some pages ago, it was Brian's example of how to make simple things impressive that it is very crucial to Stones 'magic'. Keith's riff of "Satisfaction" is the most remarkable piece of this philosophy ever.

Anyway, I never get really the point of claiming Brian to be a great musician or not. The secret of the Stones has never been technical excellence,so why Brian should be treated with different criterion?

For example, Keith Richards is quite lousy guitar player in any traditional sense if we try to use any objectice criteria here. Yeah, he has a style of his own, and all that, but his uniqueness and liminess as a guitarist is mostly based on personal idiocracy than a chosen, intentional decisions. Those instincts and intuitions Keith has, including his sense of timing, should not be confused with technical complexity. As a guitar player Keith is like John Lee Hooker. His style is unique, but it has not anything to do with technical excellence.

Of course, now comes a league of posts to counter my claim, but in the end, I think every guitarist recognizes the point I make here. There are techically better guitarists in our local pubs than anything Keith has represented during his career. But that also tells how little the 'pure' tecnical excellency has to do with the Rolling Stones, and perhaps, in rock music, or any great music ever, over-all.

- Doxa

At least you get my vote.

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Mathijs
Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

You could apply that kind of questioning to any instrument/recording.

Hah this thread is quite a mess eh!?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-02-07 14:25 by His Majesty.

Brian's guitar prowess can't be judged by today's standards. Because that is what I see in many of these posts. Since songs were recorded so drastically differently in early 60's he has to be weighed differently too. Often that second guitar wasn't meant to be heard yet. The audiences and more im[portantly radio couldn't handle such a dense sound yet. So there was room for one lead instrument only. Elvis, Beatles...there is no "Band" sound, no instruments that one distinguishes like we do later on.
When Brian was called upon he delivered. In the Stones it just was not the case that he was called on often in the guitar dept. There was Keith to do that. But Brian more than delivered on harp, or on slide.
The main point IMO is that Brian played the RIGHT parts. He played what was needed at that point. To say his Slide parts are easy to play should not detract from their brilliance. To judge him as a pedestrian guitarrist because they are simple...the slide of "No Expectations" is beautiful and minimal. I'd almost say 'perfect'.
Brian wasn't a great saxophonist either; or a great Marimba player; or a great Mellotron-ist. But he was a great musician. he put the right part, the right sound. And that s what it's all about IMO. So for me he was a very good guitarrist.

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

You could apply that kind of questioning to any instrument/recording.

Hah this thread is quite a mess eh!?

Just like the Rolling Stones:a very amusing mess!!

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

You could apply that kind of questioning to any instrument/recording.

Hah this thread is quite a mess eh!?

Well, Keith's riffing to Can't You Hear Me Knocking is fantastic, no matter what went on in pre- and post production, and I doubt he needed any guidance while recording it. With Brian's mellotron on 2000 Lightyears I wonder how much of the magic actually is from the instrument Mellotron, and how much guidance went on. This is not to take anything away from a great track from a very special period.

Mathijs

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Palace Revolution 2000
So for me he was a very good guitarrist.

Yes, he could make a guitar sound great, same with any instrument he played.

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Mathijs

Well, Keith's riffing to Can't You Hear Me Knocking is fantastic, no matter what went on in pre- and post production.

Mathijs

Take away the distorted tone and it would have sounded different, which in turn would change it's impact, same thing with selecting a certain sound on mellotron.

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
Agreed. But how much of that is actually Brian, and not the instrument itself, and pre- and post production?

You could apply that kind of questioning to any instrument/recording.

Hah this thread is quite a mess eh!?

Well, Keith's riffing to Can't You Hear Me Knocking is fantastic, no matter what went on in pre- and post production, and I doubt he needed any guidance while recording it. With Brian's mellotron on 2000 Lightyears I wonder how much of the magic actually is from the instrument Mellotron, and how much guidance went on. This is not to take anything away from a great track from a very special period.

Mathijs

It's a great riff,but take away the amp and let him play it on an acoustic guitar,
There will not be left very much..that's the crux of this discusssion...

Well, take away the guitar and song writing skills and Keith Richards is just another bloke from Darthford.

Fantastic reasoning.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
Well, take away the guitar and song writing skills and Keith Richards is just another bloke from Darthford.

Fantastic reasoning.

Mathijs

Totally different subject to me.

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Mathijs
Well, take away the guitar and song writing skills and Keith Richards is just another bloke from Darthford.

Fantastic reasoning.

Mathijs

You're having a sly go at Brians mellotron playing by questioning how much of the greatness is the mellotron itself and pre/post production!? As if using a mellotron is in some way cheating!?

A mellotron can sound shit, same as a guitar can sound shit. Brian made it sound great through good playing and use of right sound for that particular track.

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
Well, take away the guitar and song writing skills and Keith Richards is just another bloke from Darthford.

Fantastic reasoning.

Mathijs

You're having a sly go at Brians mellotron playing by questioning how much of the greatness is the mellotron itself and pre/post production!? As if using a mellotron is in some way cheating!?

A mellotron can sound shit, same as a guitar can sound shit. Brian made it sound great through good playing and use of right sound for that particular track.

What I mean is that any decent pianist can get great sounds out of a Hammond B3 and a mellotron, whereas Ry Cooder's slide on Sister Morphine or Memo from Turner is a fantastic achievement that not many guitarists will be able to achieve. In my opinion the use of the Mellotron on 2000 LY is fantastic, but I am not sure how much of a Brian Jones achievement this is.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
I am not sure how much of a Brian Jones achievement this is.

He made a cool song that much cooler! This in itself is achievement enough!

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Mathijs

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His Majesty

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Mathijs
Well, take away the guitar and song writing skills and Keith Richards is just another bloke from Darthford.

Fantastic reasoning.

Mathijs

You're having a sly go at Brians mellotron playing by questioning how much of the greatness is the mellotron itself and pre/post production!? As if using a mellotron is in some way cheating!?

A mellotron can sound shit, same as a guitar can sound shit. Brian made it sound great through good playing and use of right sound for that particular track.

What I mean is that any decent pianist can get great sounds out of a Hammond B3 and a mellotron, whereas Ry Cooder's slide on Sister Morphine or Memo from Turner is a fantastic achievement that not many guitarists will be able to achieve. In my opinion the use of the Mellotron on 2000 LY is fantastic, but I am not sure how much of a Brian Jones achievement this is.

Mathijs

Don't think Ry Cooder could have played the Mellotron on 2000 Lightyears. Or would have.