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Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: October 10, 2022 22:39

Which guitar does Taylor play on the studio version of Live With Me?

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Date: October 10, 2022 22:53

Quote
Taylor1
Which guitar does Taylor play on the studio version of Live With Me?

By the sharp sound I would guess an SG.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: bv ()
Date: October 10, 2022 23:36

This is a thread about Brown Sugar.

Bjornulf

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: October 11, 2022 00:09

Without getting into political discussions, do you all think they will ever play Brown Sugar again? Some here seem to think they’ll dust it off again. I don’t think they will ever play it again.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 11, 2022 00:12

A -- will play again



ROCKMAN

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: October 11, 2022 00:38

Of course they will. It's a great song.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Hairball ()
Date: October 11, 2022 01:40

"I’m hoping that we’ll be able to resurrect the babe in her glory somewhere along the track.” - Keith, 2021


The last the they played it was Miami, 2019 which was also the last show with Charlie.
The shows haven't been quite the same ever since then.

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Shawn20 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 03:06

It’s my favorite song of the rock era! It’s rock and roll perfection!

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: angee ()
Date: October 11, 2022 03:37

I don't think they will play it again, agreeing with you, NashvilleBlues.

~"Love is Strong"~

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 04:08

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Taylor1
Which guitar does Taylor play on the studio version of Live With Me?

By the sharp sound I would guess an SG.
No I meant is it the one that you first hear playing the chords



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 04:23 by Taylor1.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: October 11, 2022 09:32





ROCKMAN

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: bv ()
Date: October 11, 2022 09:45

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Without getting into political discussions, do you all think they will ever play Brown Sugar again? Some here seem to think they’ll dust it off again. I don’t think they will ever play it again.

Please do not bring the political discussion about that here. Then the thread will be closed, and user access will be deleted. Everybody do know the posting rules by now, they are so clear and all spelled out here:

Brown Sugar related posts will be deleted

Bjornulf

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Tumlin73 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 13:42

My favourite rock n roll song ever.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Meise ()
Date: October 11, 2022 15:30

One of my all-time favourites.
Hope the Stones will become the Stones again and give a damn on public discussions to play it again.

________________________________________

I can't imagine a world without the Rolling Stones! (A. Erthegun)

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: October 11, 2022 15:46

Quote
bv
Quote
NashvilleBlues
Without getting into political discussions, do you all think they will ever play Brown Sugar again? Some here seem to think they’ll dust it off again. I don’t think they will ever play it again.

Please do not bring the political discussion about that here. Then the thread will be closed, and user access will be deleted. Everybody do know the posting rules by now, they are so clear and all spelled out here:

Brown Sugar related posts will be deleted

Can we not discuss if they’ll play it again or not without making it political? Seems we were handling it well. Either way, it’s your site. Sorry for causing trouble. I was trying to get it back on topic. So can we discuss Brown Sugar or not? Getting mixed messages.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 15:48 by NashvilleBlues.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 15:53

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Quote
bv
Quote
NashvilleBlues
Without getting into political discussions, do you all think they will ever play Brown Sugar again? Some here seem to think they’ll dust it off again. I don’t think they will ever play it again.

Please do not bring the political discussion about that here. Then the thread will be closed, and user access will be deleted. Everybody do know the posting rules by now, they are so clear and all spelled out here:

Brown Sugar related posts will be deleted

Can we not discuss if they’ll play it again or not without making it political? Seems we were handling it well. Either way, it’s your site. Sorry for causing trouble. I was trying to get it back on topic. So can we discuss Brown Sugar or not? Getting mixed messages.


You were safe NB. It's most likely mine that offended (since the post has been deleted), though I tried to stay as high above the clouds as possible whilst still voicing my opinion. For that, I am sorry, BV. I could have simply stated that I do think they'll play it again without stating the reason why.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 16:05 by VoodooLounge13.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: October 11, 2022 15:58

Quote
Taylor1
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Taylor1
Which guitar does Taylor play on the studio version of Live With Me?

By the sharp sound I would guess an SG.
No I meant is it the one that you first hear playing the chords

Yes.

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: October 11, 2022 16:28

NashvilleBlues: I take it that talking about the making of Brown Sugar and who-played-what is fine, but the argument about it not being played since Miami is still off limits.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: FP ()
Date: October 11, 2022 17:00

Quote
exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 17:04 by FP.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 17:42

...One day I have to make the pilgrimage to Muscle Shoals!!!

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: NashvilleBlues ()
Date: October 11, 2022 17:52

Quote
VoodooLounge13
...One day I have to make the pilgrimage to Muscle Shoals!!!

Just drove through Alabama Thursday, coming back from Florida and all the pink meanies (rare jellyfish), and thought about it. Wore a Stones shirt and got props from a guy in a small-town Alabama Subway.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: October 11, 2022 17:55

Quote
NashvilleBlues
Quote
VoodooLounge13
...One day I have to make the pilgrimage to Muscle Shoals!!!

Just drove through Alabama Thursday, coming back from Florida and all the pink meanies (rare jellyfish), and thought about it. Wore a Stones shirt and got props from a guy in a small-town Alabama Subway.


Nice!! I have an agent whose office is about 20 minutes from there, so it would be an easy side trip if I ever get down there to visit him.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: TravelinMan ()
Date: October 11, 2022 18:00

Quote
FP
Quote
exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!

Try using this: web.archive.org and searching micktaylor.net

I can't remember if the Gimme Shelter doc version is the one from Hot Rocks accidental inclusion.

Because you have that version with the obvious Richards solo

The arpeggio version with the Taylor solo

Final version with B. Keys solo

What am I missing?

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: FP ()
Date: October 11, 2022 19:19

Quote
TravelinMan
Quote
FP
Quote
exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!

Try using this: web.archive.org and searching micktaylor.net

I can't remember if the Gimme Shelter doc version is the one from Hot Rocks accidental inclusion.

Because you have that version with the obvious Richards solo

The arpeggio version with the Taylor solo

Final version with B. Keys solo

What am I missing?

Hey mate!
Cool I will check it out.

Along with those versions there was a version listed as Take 1 that has two rhythm guitars, Keith licks and then some buried solos over the outro and the one from Alternate Takes & Demos [1968/1969] album with different Keith guitar 2 rhythm part over intro riff.

Also not sure if the backing for the Top Of The Pops show was a rerecording or just the backing track of the single?

Oh and finally the Clapton version! Apparently EC plays the slide, not sure who plays the guitar solo though? Has a similar tone and feel to Taylor's removed solo on previous mix so possibly him?

video: [www.youtube.com]

Also maybe wrong but wasn't the single mixed differently to the album version?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 19:25 by FP.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: FP ()
Date: October 11, 2022 19:23

Hot Rock alternate mix apparently. With the weird solo at 1.52 that sounds like a kazoo! Actually this is the one from the (Alternate Takes & Demos [1968/1969] album I mentioned.

video: [www.youtube.com]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-10-11 19:27 by FP.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: FP ()
Date: October 11, 2022 19:30

Mono single mix, note opening riff doesn't have the slap back echo.

video: [www.youtube.com]

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: October 13, 2022 15:18

Quote
VoodooLounge13
...One day I have to make the pilgrimage to Muscle Shoals!!!

Or not. The studio is rebuilt into a tourist attraction and bears no relevance to the old studio.

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: Mathijs ()
Date: October 13, 2022 15:28

Quote
FP
Quote
exilestones
[www.prosoundweb.com]

In The Studio: Recording The Rolling Stones “Brown Sugar” Sessions
November 21, 2020

Bruce Borgerson
Reconstructing the night that produced a rock song for the ages...

full article

It's interesting how Jimmy Johnson talks about Richards and Taylor's amp micing and positioning. I love how Keith has to have his amp enclosed in a booth with the door shut! In the video I posted Jimmy talks about Keith's amp being on 10!

So we know from this that both Taylor and Richards played on the basic track. Keith with an SG and MT with a Strat, although as in several pics I have seen from the session Taylor is playing a Tele so I wonder if Jimmy simply confused the model and MT played his White Tele on BS? Either way SG and Tele (or any Fender) is an interesting sound mix. If Keith did remove most or all of MT's part perhaps he didn't like the tone he had, odd if so considering Keith's love affair with Teles!

Would be interested to know what guitar Keith used for his overdubs, inc the fills? I always assumed one part was a Gibson, confirmed by Johnson, maybe layered with a Les Paul and the other a Tele (played by Keith) for the twang?

He also mentions there being bleed between tracks. Based on Mathijs assertion there are many layers or edits of guitar I am frankly starting to think MT is on there, as the credits state, but as Nico says "almost inaudible". Possibly because he is mirroring Keith's part?

I don't think it is such an out there suggestion that MT was happy to double up parts on a basic track. I think as he time went on it became more of a lead/rhythm parts split between him and Keith. However he plays solid rhythm parts on B*tch & Can't Your Hear Me Knocking from Sticky Fingers.

There is also an interview on his old website, which I wish I could source, where he says he would often double riffs, he specifically mentions the riffs on Can't Your Hear Me Knocking saying he and Keith would play riffs together.

A lot depends on the studio console set up, as we know early Beatles tunes were recorded on 4 track and they would have to bounce down to overdub. But Jimmy Johnson specifically says he had an 8 track and that overdubs took place.

Quite often when I have recorded I would get the other guitarists to lay down a second part doubling up a riff, firstly it makes it sound considerably fatter and secondly the other players feel, even if playing the same riff, gives it a bit of movement and contrast.

Of course master players like Jimmy Page, Pete Townshend and Keith would do their own overdubbing using different guitars, amps, effects and tones to give a riff sparkle. The opening riff to Led Zeppelin's Black Dog is about 5 or so guitars layered. Having said that if you have another player you get them to double it while tracking, as you hear on other twin guitar bands like Thin Lizzy and Judas Priest.

I feel they jammed the basic track to get that monumental groove and then both MT and KR took several swings at lead solos and melodic ideas, including he arpeggio parts and Taylor's two solos heard on the mixes I put above. Johnson suggest it was actually just electric guitar overdubs at Muscle Shoals so seems the acoustic part was added at Olympic along with the sax, which is when Taylor's solos must have been removed. I suspect they would have kept them until Keys blew the house down in his take and they made the right choice!

It should be noted MT has mentioned in several interviews that Brown Sugar is one of his favourite Stones tunes, whether he is on it or not!

Taylor's original guitar part is the alternate picked sus chords, with a high pitched trebly tone. It sure does sound like a Telecaster. Taylor would play this part often on the 1972 tour. This part was completely removed from the released version, where Keith added Berry style boogie rhythm, and a second open G guitar with embellishments, acoustic guitar and the guitar playing the main riff going into the chorus. The overdubs by Richards clash with Taylor's part in places and most likely the reason why it was removed.

Richard's main guitar used could be anything basically. A black SG didn't exist in the 1960's but Richards could have used Taylor's SG. If they used their own stuff Richard's could have used his Ampeg Dan Armstrong or LP Custom as these were ready for open G. The amps were rented, and so could the guitars. The pictures of Taylor's Tele show a Tele I have never seen elsewhere with the Stones. To me, the Dan Armstrong is the most likely contender due to its raspy sound.

Also for the overdubs, Richards really seemed to favor the Dan Armstrong over anything else in 1969 - 1972, and the sound of the overdubbed guitars is very reminiscent of that guitar to me.

Mathijs

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: October 13, 2022 16:00

Quote
Mathijs
Quote
VoodooLounge13
...One day I have to make the pilgrimage to Muscle Shoals!!!

Or not. The studio is rebuilt into a tourist attraction and bears no relevance to the old studio.

Mathijs


Either way, to be able to say I saw it would be nice.

Re: Track Talk: Brown Sugar
Posted by: loog droog ()
Date: October 13, 2022 17:24

Quote
FP
Mono single mix, note opening riff doesn't have the slap back echo.

video: [www.youtube.com]


I remember when it was first played on the radio, and that's still the way I think of the song, with that dry opening riff.

Thanks for posting.

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