I wonder how Mick and Keith feel when they see their contemporaries (Dylan, Springsteen, Bowie, Aerosmith) still recieving critical acclaim and huge sales for their current albums. It must sting, even just a little, to have their latter compositions so widely panned.
While I understand that they have already contributed more to popular music than just about anyone else I can't help but feel that their laziness (in the studio) is really sad for such talented guys.
I'm sure that money and fame has allowed them to forget about being creative but there must be even a tiny voice inside still saying "Lets just do it".
Any thoughts?

I totally agree.

money corrupts

I keep coming back to this one too dj. There have been many posts here about what the Stones should do to make a totally brilliant album - one that would probably be hailed as their best work since the 70s. They're rich enough to not care enough of what the general public thinks.
My idea would be to stop the ridiculous attempts to be hip to today's kids. Get rid of the horrible click track drumming, loosen up more, and stop making the tracks too busy. Let the music breathe more.
Then there's the music itself. Get back to basics. Lots of people loved Back Of My Hand. More of the blues, some great country a la Torn and Frayed or Sweet Virginia. Some slowed down roots reggae more like Too Rude rather than You Don't Have To Mean It. And some great acoustic songs.
This is not wanting the Stones to go backwards and revisit old sounds but simply a desire for them to ignore having to keep up with today's bands.

When a bigger bang came out in 2005, i'd already heard almost the entire album thanks to the internet, and forums like this. back then i was dancing and singin'along with Rough Justice and Oh No Not You Again! it was new, it was fresh.... and it was totaly overhyped! i don't listen to ABB anymore, it doesn't even come closeto BTB form 1997.

so to answer your question here, i do think they've lost some of their magic thanks to their fame and fortune. it's a bit like "hey man i'm bored, let's do that same old trick again, like we do every thhree years!" know what i mean?

i know they can still do it, they have it in them, but it takes more these days to get it out!

and please don't hire that Don Was guy again, don't try to be cool and hip, just make a great 10 song Rolling Stones Record again, i think they still have to prove that they are the greatest band on earth, and i think we're all still waiting on that BIGGEST BANG they promised us a few years ago, still haven't seen it!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-30 15:16 by DizzyDutch.

By contrast, I believe A Bigger Bang was their finest moment since Voodoo Lounge, granted there's only 1 album in between there, but when you consider, for me, VL is by far, not even close, their best album (sans Mean Disposition), and Exile was a distant second, to have ABB race up the chart of my favorite Stones albums and firmly, permanently, plant itself as the new #2 album, that says something to me. I know I'll be criticized here for thinking this way because I got into the band so much later than most here, but their latter day stuff is fantastic. It's their second golden era. I'd put SW-SAL up against the definitive period anytime.......now granted, both of my favorite albums are in the former, the edge in this one has to go to the Mick Taylor era. No matter how great VL and ABB are, they still can't rival the guitar work on every single one of those albums.

BTW - did you guys know that Mick and Carla Olson have a new CD out? Just ordered mine. Dark Horses it's called.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-30 15:15 by VoodooLounge13.

its a bit sobering to think that the Stones have been around for so long that 'Dirty Work' - an album which would be seen as a 'latter day' Rolling Stones album was actually released at what is now exactly the half way point in their career.

It marked a big turning point - Stu's death, Jagger starting to push himself as a solo act and a period of internal friction which tore the band apart until 1989, after which Cohl's influence became greater with each successive tour to the point where in 2009 he has effectively assumed control of the 'creative' direction of the band along with Mick.

Hard to believe that in the entire second half of their career (23 years), the Stones have released just four studio albums with no sign of a fifth in the immediate future. The fact that theyve put out five LIVE albums in that time plus several compilations speaks volumes however.

If Cohl influences the band so much maybe a new promotor would be a good move as they move into the twilight years of their careers

So Gazza,

Are you implying that managers and agents have ruined the creativity of the music, tours, setlists, and recordings?

Good point Gazza. I was about to jump in and say that no band or artist keeps up with the output of their early career but then I just remembered Neil Young who puts everyone to shame. And Macca ain't too much of a slouch in the recording stakes either. I'm sure there are plenty.
But the overriding fact is that I truly believe The Stones have badly let themselves down in terms of quality. The second half of their career comes across as perfunctory as opposed to passionate. I'd say they are badly advised and yes, getting rid of Don Was is a must.

You can't sit down and say "we're gonna write a great album". If you can, you'll do it. It's natural. For the stones, I think this time is gone I don't need new stones songs, There are enough official records and all these outtakes to listen. I don't need another stones album just to say they are always there and thinking I hope this new album will be better than the others production all over the world. There are so many brilliant artists I love, the stones are really my favorite since 35 years.

Luckily, they have toured like never before

The missing tour was EUROPE 79

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The Sicilian
So Gazza,

Are you implying that managers and agents have ruined the creativity of the music, tours, setlists, and recordings?

yes. They can make much more money from touring than they do from records. Its something which takes less effort from a creative point of view.

The focus of the band has shifted in the last two decades into primarily being a touring act. The lack of newly recorded material and the increasing reluctance to perform it is undeniable.

When profit margins are the main motivation, then their artistic side suffers. The band - whether they'll admit to it or not - now pretty much accept that theyre a nostalgia act (more so since 2002 when they realised that they didnt need to make a new album to justify going on a world tour) and as a result are more concerned with catering to an older, more affluent target audience because they're more likely to have the sort of disposable income which will see them shell out $1,000 for a couple of concert tickets. They're also less likely to be that interested in new material, so the band dont really feel that pushed to be creative.

Maximum revenue for minimal effort.

Most of what creativity there is in the Stones now comes from Mick. Since 'Voodoo Lounge' Keith has not released any solo material of his own and has been the main/sole songwriter of probably no more than about 10 Rolling Stones released songs. With the focus being primarily now on touring/marketing and profit, its safe to say that in this decade the balance of power in the band has shifted from Mick and Keith to Mick and Cohl.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-30 15:46 by Gazza.

Much what Silver Dagger says is my stance. I think the Stones could easily release not just one, several great albums. They could do it if they move naturally. These latter day releases are forced; trying to come on to this "young hip" market that Jagger for some reason sees as his measuring tool. It is crazy.
This is why contemporaries like Dylan, Neil Young, Springsteen, Tom Petty, even McCartney, maybe even the Who, are leaving the Stones behind artistically. The Stones are still revered constantly, but even this is wearing thin, because what they do deliver nowadays is so glaringly weak. These artists have all forsaken the huge sales; for whatever reason - some don't want the stadium gigs, some don't want to compromise their lyrical message, some have understood that popmusic itself is changing so drastically that the rules are new, what used to count does not matter anymore. I do believe, that the Stones would be aging better, if Keith had aged stronger.Were his influence on Jagger the way it used to be, as an equal, I think we'd be seeing a more integral Rolling Stones.

As soon as making money starts to become the main purpose of creating music, the art itself
becomes nothing more than just a job. I think we're better off if they decide not to make
new albums if the only motive for making a new album would be to earn some more money.
The only chance for an interesting new album is when they start to feel the urge to create
something new again. If Keith will pick up some incoming tunes in his head again, we're
bound for a great album. Whenever he's locked up in the kitchen again because more money
is to be made, we'll be doomed. "New" material will then just contain some recyled generic
tunes.

So I guess it's up to Keith' antenna for incoming tunes to have the flame flicker up again.

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pgarof
If Cohl influences the band so much maybe a new promotor would be a good move as they move into the twilight years of their careers

from an artistic perspective - yes.

However, he makes them a lot of money and in that respect he is undeniably good at what he does.

If they're content with that then its never going to be an issue.

gazza, i think they did a great job by making the touring business so succesfull, the rolling stones were one of the first bands to get a sponsor and do massive world tours since 1981 and 1989, thanks to Michael Cohl.

when half of the world population is not paying for the music they are downloadingto their ipods, the artists have to come up with something to get paid for their work, and the stones and michael cohl did just that. but it gets out of control man! sometimes i realy think that Cohl is just a sneaky bastard with those dollar>Euro signs in his eyes, and the stones just following their master, as a bunch of slaves! like they'll do anything for the money! like those private gigs for multimillionare bankmanagers, it makes me sick!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-01-30 15:59 by DizzyDutch.

I wonder if money is going to be a real issue in the future, they all have enough now surly (apart from Ronnie) so maybe the next time they tour it's because they want to and because they love it and also the fans want to see them. No they don't have to make another album, they can still tour on material they haven't play live before , or at least since the 70's, like Little Queenie, Johnny be good, Carol, around and around, little red rooster. Wouldn't that be great? it would proberbly attract a whole new audience.

What makes an album? Good songs!! They haven't written a good song way before dirty work. Some people just burn out creatively, as for their abilities they also have a lot of mileage. They have big families, and they have different lives. As seen on the Being Mick DVD, how can you write a song like Beast Of Burden with a lifestyle like that? Recording an album while watching a tennis match for instance. They are ffff 65 too... however Bob Dylan made a great example with his Time out of mind and beyond work about finding ways to reinvent yourself and your art. But you have to be serious about it to do it.

"its a bit sobering to think that the Stones have been around for so long that 'Dirty Work' - an album which would be seen as a 'latter day' Rolling Stones album was actually released at what is now exactly the half way point in their career."


Sobering indeed!

I don't think they want to graft at making an album anymore, take it apart, put it back together again. I think it was Andy John's (?) who mentioned how many times they played Tumblin' Dice (over and over...) until they got it just right, THEN they receorded it! Nowadays, Mick rights the songs beforehand, goes in, records them in a couple of days and that's it.

it's getting a bit boring, i mean... since Voodoo (1994) we've had the same record producer and studio albums, the same tour staff, the same kind of greatest hits world tour... it has all more or less been the same since 1994 guys! that's 15 years of the same shit every once in a while. when are they waking up, and try something different, a fresh start.

Quote
Gazza
The focus of the band has shifted in the last two decades into primarily being a touring act. The lack of newly recorded material and the increasing reluctance to perform it is undeniable.

When profit margins are the main motivation, then their artistic side suffers. The band - whether they'll admit to it or not - now pretty much accept that theyre a nostalgia act

Maximum revenue for minimal effort.

Maybe that is one reason why Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman headed for the exits.

I know that they could easily release great albums and play in stadiums, mixing old and new. Springsteen does it. Also anyone who thinks that they're lifestyle has removed them from normal life is of course right but Dylan, McCartney, Petty, etc have proved that being a 60 something multi millionaire doesn't mean you can no longer communicate to the masses. They would have to completely re-evalute their approach to an album. Mick is still very creative but seems to want to appeal to a 20 something pop/rock fan, while Keith needs guitar lessons, a drying out clinic and a kick up the arse to write more songs. I don't think they should do a blues only stripped down record (although that would be great). They could do anything, just take a chance. Whats the worst that could happen. They sell less than A Bigger Bang? I'd rather make an interesting album than a continual repeat of the same old licks over and over again. A Bigger Bang proved that very few are willing to buy an album they've heard many times before. Come on lads, just try something new!!!

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The Sicilian

Quote
Gazza
The focus of the band has shifted in the last two decades into primarily being a touring act. The lack of newly recorded material and the increasing reluctance to perform it is undeniable.

When profit margins are the main motivation, then their artistic side suffers. The band - whether they'll admit to it or not - now pretty much accept that theyre a nostalgia act

Maximum revenue for minimal effort.

Maybe that is one reason why Mick Taylor and Bill Wyman headed for the exits.

Mick Taylor left when thay were at the hight of their fame, I don't think he left for that reason above.

Quote
Loudei
What makes an album? Good songs!! They haven't written a good song way before dirty work. Some people just burn out creatively, as for their abilities they also have a lot of mileage. They have big families, and they have different lives. As seen on the Being Mick DVD, how can you write a song like Beast Of Burden with a lifestyle like that? Recording an album while watching a tennis match for instance. They are ffff 65 too... however Bob Dylan made a great example with his Time out of mind and beyond work about finding ways to reinvent yourself and your art. But you have to be serious about it to do it.

it's not about desire, imo...it's about a muse that doesn't exist for them anymore and really hasn't in over a quarter century. you can't just tell yourself, "i'm gonna write me a great song."

Its wanting to put the effort in to craft great songs. Wasn't it the case that Jaggers songs were either rejected or told to be re-written for Wandering Spirit. The end result was an album of consistently great songs.

Recent producers probably haven't got the balls to tell the Stones to try again. Also a lack of editig on recent albums doesn't help. Voodoo lounge and ABB could have been alot better with just the best songs on them.

Also I think recording an album when the whole band isn't together is a mistake and evident on ABB. Ronnie should be allowed to contribute far more and suggest songs he's had a part in writing.

The stones need to practise/rehearse to get the best results as a unit.

Poor Mick, writing songs about boulevards of broken hearts...poverty being picturesque, about crossing a great Italian river...

He has nothing to write about because he can have it all. He has it all. There is no loss anymore. Nowadays when he writes about loss it's usually because he made the chick leave.

And when he does write something that sounds pretty good, Back Of My Hand, well, as Keith sort of said, it sounds brand new but I know it all too well.

Rough Justice was great lyrically, I find it very light hearted and the innuendo is more along the lines of what one might expect from the Rolling Stones. There are a few other songs on Bang that are worth while too - It Won't Take Long is one.

Mick made that solo album and there's really not much on it that is inventive as there was on Wandering Spirit - and that just sounded like good demos for a Stones album. Sure, it's full of at the moment effects and layerings of shit but it's not GOOD.

I still think the last time the Stones were truly inventive and doing something other than just being The Rolling Stones was Undercover. They approached that same avenue somewhat, only with way less success, with BTB. But overall they've just been imitating themselves and saying that the albums are an excuse to tour when it's not, they could just tour now if they wanted to without having anything new to play.

Much as we'd like the Stones to go on forever, it is ridiculous in the extreme, for them to be trying to re-enact this personae of sex, drugs and rock n' roll when, in reality, they are a bunch of pensionable-age guys pushing towards their seventieth birthdays.

I mean, WHERE exactly, can we expect them to draw their inspiration from, when their actual lifestyles are so incredibly distanced and removed from the so-called rock n' roll way of living?

This is why their shows in recent years have mustered up about as much edge and menace as a children's pantomime. They are just not credible or believable anymore.

The upshot being, that unless they really do have enough belief in their ability to start making real music again, as well as actually PLAYING it, then they might as well call it quits right now and put us all out of our misery.

...and open the vaults.