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Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Never seen L&G, or heard it? Ever Listened to the boots from f.e. the Australian 1973 tour?

I guess you're joking.

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kleermaker

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Mathijs
I never understood it though....Taylor is by all means a mediocre rythm player, and the way he played the riff live has always been miles away from the studio version. His right hand is fairly week for rythm playing, but on this record it suddenly is loud, aggressive and mean -just as you would expect Keith would do it. Then there's the remark from Andy Johns, would doesn't make sense knowing that Keith is only credited with the fills.

I have never been fully confident the main riff actually is Taylor...

Mathijs

Never seen L&G, or heard it? Ever Listened to the boots from f.e. the Australian 1973 tour?

I guess you're joking.

Well, I have every show that is available from these tours, and there is not one show where Taylor plays it with the same kind of attack and presense as on the studio version. He plays the lick alright, but not with the same drive and phrasing. You don't need to play guitar or anything to hear the difference.

Mathijs

Maybe he's just versatile?

Studio:





Live 1973 Melbourne Australia:

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Amsterdamned
Maybe he's just versatile?

Versatile maybe.....or is it that maybe he cant reproduce it the way its played on the record....i wonder why that is....?

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ThankGod

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Amsterdamned
Maybe he's just versatile?

Versatile maybe.....or is it that maybe he cant reproduce it the way its played on the record....i wonder why that is....?

Same way keith never managed to reproduce certain riffs himself ... all down the line , brown sugar (upbeat), and changed many riffs / intros like straycat blues , satisfaction (many times ),its all over now etc

I think Taylor can do that,playing sharp end edgy, just like he does on Dance little
sister for example... He can play rythm like Keith if he wants..Plus he's mentioned on the studio track. The Stones are rather accurate at that point.
Keith strength in playing ryhtm guitar is mainly based on his open G tuning btw.
With all respect for Keith:a child can do that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-09 16:36 by Amsterdamned.

I bought the vinyl single Brown Sugar in the early seventies after it had been a hit, because I missed it on the radio. Bitch was on the B-side of it; I wil always remenber it for that. Anyone who does not know the single version hasn't heard the real Brown Sugar; the mix is much better. I don't know if Bitch was a different mix as well.

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lsbz
I bought the vinyl single Brown Sugar in the early seventies after it had been a hit, because I missed it on the radio. Bitch was on the B-side of it; I wil always remenber it for that. Anyone who does not know the single version hasn't heard the real Brown Sugar; the mix is much better. I don't know if Bitch was a different mix as well.

the talking at the end of BS was clearer . you could hear someone saying something before keiths(?) "yeah" .
also a bonus let it rock with a great rhythm guitar by mick

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Amsterdamned
I think Taylor can do that,playing sharp end edgy, just like he does on Dance little
sister for example... He can play rythm like Keith if he wants..Plus he's mentioned on the studio track. The Stones are rather accurate at that point.
Keith strength in playing ryhtm guitar is mainly based on his open G tuning btw.
With all respect for Keith:a child can do that.

Well throughout most of the 70s, Keith played better than ever - mostly in standard tuning. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like SG and the 78 and 81/82 tours so much. Keith's playing was nearly at its peak (imo, he reached that in 89/90). And the songs he played the best were in standard tuning.

Also, if you're listening to the Pathe Marconi-boots you'll find that most of the stuff he plays there is not in open G. So, imo, that theory is a little too simple.

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straycatblues73

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lsbz
I bought the vinyl single Brown Sugar in the early seventies after it had been a hit, because I missed it on the radio. Bitch was on the B-side of it; I wil always remenber it for that. Anyone who does not know the single version hasn't heard the real Brown Sugar; the mix is much better. I don't know if Bitch was a different mix as well.

the talking at the end of BS was clearer . you could hear someone saying something before keiths(?) "yeah" .

Yes. It may even be a different version instead of a different mix. On the Sotheby Reels you can hear that they recorded many versions, but I did not hear the single. A mono single version has surfaced on That Demon Life - Sticky Fingers Outtakes though.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-09 17:16 by lsbz.

The original UK mono 7" mixes of Brown Sugar/Bitch/Let It Rock are available on "Acetates" (Midnight Beat).

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DandelionPowderman

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Amsterdamned
I think Taylor can do that,playing sharp end edgy, just like he does on Dance little
sister for example... He can play rythm like Keith if he wants..Plus he's mentioned on the studio track. The Stones are rather accurate at that point.
Keith strength in playing ryhtm guitar is mainly based on his open G tuning btw.
With all respect for Keith:a child can do that.

Well throughout most of the 70s, Keith played better than ever - mostly in standard tuning. In fact, that's one of the reasons I like SG and the 78 and 81/82 tours so much. Keith's playing was nearly at its peak (imo, he reached that in 89/90). And the songs he played the best were in standard tuning.



Also, if you're listening to the Pathe Marconi-boots you'll find that most of the stuff he plays there is not in open G. So, imo, that theory is a little too simple.

Only my opinion,just forget it.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2010-11-09 17:44 by Amsterdamned.

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Amsterdamned
I think Taylor can do that,playing sharp end edgy, just like he does on Dance little
sister for example... He can play rythm like Keith if he wants..Plus he's mentioned on the studio track. The Stones are rather accurate at that point.
Keith strength in playing ryhtm guitar is mainly based on his open G tuning btw.
With all respect for Keith:a child can do that.

What do you mean, sharp and edgy on DLS? Taylor does the lead guitar, not the rhythm guitar of course, and it basically is the same riffing as on Travelling Man. It's great as it is so smooth, not because it is edgy or aggressive by any means.

And Keith's parts on Stones albums are 80% in standard tuning (strangely many open G parts are done by Jagger), so that remark misses its mark as well.

Now just compare the live Taylor versions of Bitch with the studio version -it's just totally differently played. The approach, the phrasing, the timing, all is very different to the studio version. And that is strange, as it is a fairly simple riff to play.

Mathijs

Listening to Rare Earth's live version of "Get Ready" (1969), and couldn't help noticing the similarity.

The song illustrates the superiority of the production on Sticky Fingers. With Exile getting all the attention lately, Sticky Fingers gets overlooked. It now appears that Sticky Fingers might the be the apex of their studio recordings. Siter Morphine, Moonlight Mile, these are stellar production cuts.

i agree. that is a aggressive right hand playing the main riff on this song.taylor is a light handed rhtymn player.

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Mathijs

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Amsterdamned
I think Taylor can do that,playing sharp end edgy, just like he does on Dance little
sister for example... He can play rythm like Keith if he wants..Plus he's mentioned on the studio track. The Stones are rather accurate at that point.
Keith strength in playing ryhtm guitar is mainly based on his open G tuning btw.
With all respect for Keith:a child can do that.

What do you mean, sharp and edgy on DLS? Taylor does the lead guitar, not the rhythm guitar of course, and it basically is the same riffing as on Travelling Man. It's great as it is so smooth, not because it is edgy or aggressive by any means.

And Keith's parts on Stones albums are 80% in standard tuning (strangely many open G parts are done by Jagger), so that remark misses its mark as well.

Now just compare the live Taylor versions of Bitch with the studio version -it's just totally differently played. The approach, the phrasing, the timing, all is very different to the studio version. And that is strange, as it is a fairly simple riff to play.

Mathijs

mmm... not sure:

A sophisticated Bitch.

video: [www.youtube.com]

With Taylor they definitely play it faster than the recording. Taylor plays some cool stuff under Keith's solo at the Philly show like somebody previously mentioned. I don't see any reason why that isn't Taylor on Sticky Fingers, and that's really the only time I've heard them play it at a slower pace.

The Herbie Mann version is a great jam with Taylor and Albert Lee. They also do a great version of Layla. Taylor played a bunch of rhythm guitar on that record as well.

Time and again, Keith is playing the riff on the Atlantic City-version from 1989.

It's fast as well, but the riff sounds more like the studio-version. Keith plays the ending of the riff down at the second fret in the A-chord position.

I suspect that was done on the SF-version as well. It's sounds both more staccato and more aggressive.

i agree.i don't think taylor plays on this track at all.that rhytmn guitar has richards tone and feel all over it.

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DandelionPowderman
Time and again, Keith is playing the riff on the Atlantic City-version from 1989.

It's fast as well, but the riff sounds more like the studio-version. Keith plays the ending of the riff down at the second fret in the A-chord position.

I suspect that was done on the SF-version as well. It's sounds both more staccato and more aggressive.

Upon close listen, you may be right. The Sticky Fingers version has a chunkier tone, and I suppose that could give it what you refer to as a "more aggressive" sound. Taylor sounds more smooth in the live versions.

I disagree with people saying Taylor wasn't a great rhythm player though. He just has a different sound than Richards.

Who do you think played rhythm on Starf**ker? Sounds like Taylor on the left to me.

I"m not sure. Listening to Taylor on the clip below, he sounds as aggressive or raunchy as Richards at certain moments. It could easily have been Taylor playing the Bitch riff on SF:

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TravelinMan

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DandelionPowderman
Time and again, Keith is playing the riff on the Atlantic City-version from 1989.

It's fast as well, but the riff sounds more like the studio-version. Keith plays the ending of the riff down at the second fret in the A-chord position.

I suspect that was done on the SF-version as well. It's sounds both more staccato and more aggressive.

Upon close listen, you may be right. The Sticky Fingers version has a chunkier tone, and I suppose that could give it what you refer to as a "more aggressive" sound. Taylor sounds more smooth in the live versions.

I disagree with people saying Taylor wasn't a great rhythm player though. He just has a different sound than Richards.

Who do you think played rhythm on Starf**ker? Sounds like Taylor on the left to me.

Taylor plays a very different boogie rhythm on Star Star, so that's an easy one.

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LuxuryStones
I"m not sure. Listening to Taylor on the clip below, he sounds as aggressive or raunchy as Richards at certain moments. It could easily have been Taylor playing the Bitch riff on SF:

Isn't that one pretty typical of Taylor, except for the sound?

I didn't say that Taylor didn't play the Bitch riff, though, only that there was some more staccato-ish rhythm playing in there than Taylor usually would play.

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marcovandereijk
Studio:





Live 1973 Melbourne Australia:

"Billy's good tonight, idn't he...."

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DandelionPowderman

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LuxuryStones
I"m not sure. Listening to Taylor on the clip below, he sounds as aggressive or raunchy as Richards at certain moments. It could easily have been Taylor playing the Bitch riff on SF:

Isn't that one pretty typical of Taylor, except for the sound?

I didn't say that Taylor didn't play the Bitch riff, though, only that there was some more staccato-ish rhythm playing in there than Taylor usually would play.

Well, from 3:50 and onwards I hardly hear any difference with Keith, It's just that Taylor varies a lot more/ is not focussed enough to keep it going on the same way for 5 minutes ?
Both Richards and Taylor could have played the Bitch riff on SF, imo. Interesting subject for a sunday afternoon.

I think Taylor's guitar solo on Bitch is one of the greatest in rock and roll. I love it. Which is why it killed me at the last Anaheim show when Dave Grohl played that solo, and I knew Taylor was backstage. I'll admit Grohl did a first rate job (maybe because he knew some audience members were thinking like I was thinking). But Grohl is no Mick Taylor. And Taylor was...just..backstage.

Incidentally, at first I thought the line, "I'm feeling hungry, can't see the reason," was "I'm failing Harvard, can't see the reason."

Bitch is very butch..