Altamont and Pearl Harbor. 39 and 67 years since. Regardless of the vast difference in scale, both have had reverberations that are felt to the present day.


plexi

How about JOHN LENNON getting killed on December 8th,(1980)? Slightly worse than Altamont IMHO. Hunter DID have a gun, he was jumping around like a wild man, Hell's Angels were suppose to police the event. HE was very close to the stage, who knows what he was planning to do with his gun......

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timbernardis
Altamont and Pearl Harbor. 39 and 67 years since. Regardless of the vast difference in scale, both have had reverberations that are felt to the present day.


plexi

Dec.7 2002, my marriage. Make it 3! I'm kidding, I think...

i think maybe altamont had more societal impact (and to the present) than lennons murder did.

nonetheless that makes it 3 bad days in a row in american history


p

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timbernardis
Altamont and Pearl Harbor. 39 and 67 years since. Regardless of the vast difference in scale, both have had reverberations that are felt to the present day.


plexi

december 8th wasnt exactly a day at the beach either.

cant see how anyone can say Altamont still has some significance 39 years later. A guy got stabbed at a rock concert. Unfortunate for him, but its not like it affected many people. I seriously doubt the vast majority of people have even heard of it.

Well, I plan on making Dec. 6 a good day in '08.

Going to help my buddy race his '55 Chevy Bel Air at the drag strip today.

[www.findingdulcinea.com]

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Gazza

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timbernardis
Altamont and Pearl Harbor. 39 and 67 years since. Regardless of the vast difference in scale, both have had reverberations that are felt to the present day.


plexi

december 8th wasnt exactly a day at the beach either.

cant see how anyone can say Altamont still has some significance 39 years later. A guy got stabbed at a rock concert. Unfortunate for him, but its not like it affected many people. I seriously doubt the vast majority of people have even heard of it.

I don´t know what kind of "vast majority of people" you´re talking about.

At Altamont 1969 ?
In the USA ?
Here at IORR ?
Worldwide nowadays ?

I assume there were and are people affecetd by his killing ,even some members of the
Stones watching Gimme Shelter movie with some attention seems to be touched while watching the footage.

By the way : His name was Meredith Hunter,and no ,we will never get to know what
he intended to do with that gun,if he intended something at all.

I don´t know what kind of "vast majority of people" you´re talking about.

At Altamont 1969 ?
In the USA ?
Here at IORR ?
Worldwide nowadays ?

Options 2 and 4 would be mostly unaware of it and most people at options 1 and 3 wouldnt have been affected to any significant degree by it.

>I assume there were and are people affecetd by his killing ,even some members of the
Stones watching Gimme Shelter movie with some attention seems to be touched while watching the footage.


Never said there weren't. I said it didnt affect 'many people'. Which it didnt. And that included most of the people who were actually there and who had no idea of what happened. The reports of the incidents took a while to become public knowledge. Most of the trouble was confined to the area near the stage. I know several people who were at the show and not a single one of them had a bad time. In terms of world events, a fatality at a rock concert isnt earth shattering.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-06 15:41 by Gazza.

As bad as Altamont was (and the social implications - symbolic end of the love and peace era), it could have been a whole lot worse with the murder of Jagger, Richards, or any more of the crowd.

I agree. With regard to the symbolism attached to the end of the love & peace thing, I think that would have happened anyway. Its easy to attach it to this event because it literally did take place at the very end of the 60's.

When you look at what so many of the people advocating that lifestyle and those ideals turned into, the catalyst for the abandonment of all that that era represented cant simply be traced back to an unsavoury series of events at a rock festival.

"In terms of world events,a fatality at a rock concert isnt earth shattering."

That´s true,but the whole incl. the killing is always mentioned til today as the horrible
end not of only a decade but of an era as well.

So it is significant til today ( organisation,huge gathering of masses,etc) ,of course the starving people in Africa or wherever give a sh** about it.

And mentioning someone who was there that he didn´t notice anything bad is a statement by him/them
but no proof.

Wasn´t there of course not,but watching the film doesn´t lead me to the opinion
that there was just a funny barbecue (no Gazza ,neither I´m quoting you now nor do
I think you wanted to create a myth),just let me point out that in a polemic way.

Damn, Gazza, we gotta cut this out - people will think we have good sense!

You can't compare the two.

This is a candidate for the most idiotic topic ever.

putting altamont and pearl harbor in even the same sentence....reminds me of the curb your enthusiam episode when the two "survivors" were comparing their plights - one from the holocaust, the other from the reality show....

Sorry Tim. Like T&A, I can't see putting both events in the same sentence. One brought us into a World War (If not that, then something else would have) and at the other one person was murdered. The press gave Altamont the tag "end of the 60's" or some such thing, but really the hippy ideal of peace and love ended after the Summer of Love in 1967 and the nail in the coffin was the assassination of RFK and MLK a year later. As to John Lennon, his life and death was keenly felt by millions the world over. Altamont? A bad day for some.

Very few of us at Altamont knew there'd been a killing. The hassles with the Hells Angels were roundly booed but essentially shrugged off by the audience.

Jefferson Airplane's set was good if chaotic owing to the band member's run-in with an Angel. Santana absolutely turned the place out. The Flying Burrito Bros got a warm reception. CSNY were kind of a non-event and quit early.

There were MANY fun moments, lots of sharing of wine, food, and weed; there was also a huge fruit fight between two hills of people that drew a massive and prolonged roar of approval from the crowd. Plenty of good times.

The Stones show started with trouble, as is well known, but they played many numbers after the last of the serious violence, and as we left it sure seemed as if 95% of the audience were exhausted but highly satisfied by that amazing day.

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scaffer
The Stones show started with trouble, as is well known, but they played many numbers after the last of the serious violence, and as we left it sure seemed as if 95% of the audience were exhausted but highly satisfied by that amazing day.

then the stones had to go and make the movie and ruin it for everyone...

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ChrisM
... The press gave Altamont the tag "end of the 60's" or some such thing, but really the hippy ideal of peace and love ended after the Summer of Love in 1967 and the nail in the coffin was the assassination of RFK and MLK a year later..

wow, this is the exact post I made In the end of 60's thread. I guess I must have learned something in school after all!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-06 21:48 by ryanpow.

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shortfatfanny
"In terms of world events,a fatality at a rock concert isnt earth shattering."

That´s true,but the whole incl. the killing is always mentioned til today as the horrible
end not of only a decade but of an era as well..

Well, my point is that its merely a cliche. It didnt actually 'end' anything. Festivals continued after that without significant incident, people still believed in all that peace and love stuff, the counter culture didnt collapse overnight, the Vietnam war rumbled on for another 3 years etc. Its a convenient tag to put on it because it was an antithesis to the good 'vibe' of Woodstock four months earlier and because it happened to take place at the very end of the most revolutionary decade in the history of popular music. Its convenient to just put a lid on it with a tag saying "this is where it all ended". Four decades later, to most people its a footnote in history or else its simply something theyre unaware of.

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shortfatfanny
So it is significant til today ( organisation,huge gathering of masses,etc) ,of course the starving people in Africa or wherever give a sh** about it.

And mentioning someone who was there that he didn´t notice anything bad is a statement by him/them
but no proof.

No, but its a better sense of perspective than the film gives which only concentrates on events which directly affected a couple of hundred people at the front of the stage in a crowd of over 300,000. Most people who were at the show couldnt even see the stage (it was only 3 feet high and there were no big screens back then) so they hadnt much idea of the extent of the carnage down front. Scaffer's post - someone who was there - gives a perspective on the day which the Maysles Brothers tended to largely overlook in their film. Its every bit as valid.

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shortfatfanny
Wasn´t there of course not,but watching the film doesn´t lead me to the opinion
that there was just a funny barbecue (no Gazza ,neither I´m quoting you now nor do
I think you wanted to create a myth),just let me point out that in a polemic way.

Well, a telling quote comes from Jagger himself who, after getting asked for what seemed like the millionth time about the horrible experience that was Altamont, said something like (I'm paraphrasing a bit) "You know, I've met loads of people who were at that show and told me what a great day they had. Sometimes I get the impression that the only two people who didnt have a good time were me and the poor guy who got killed..."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-06 22:26 by Gazza.

Well, symbols, myths, and legends are a powerful reality in their own way. Both events have become some kind of symbol for their time, at least to some people.

Each era has theirs. So, consider this in that context. And as I have said before, often what is believed to have happened or believed to have been the case can often be more powerful than the reality of what actually took place.

Step back from the literal events and take a wide, perhaps philosophical view of events in their broad contexts of social meaning and how that meaning is interpreted by various groups/individuals.

That being said, I just noted the two anniversaries being bad days in American history and they were, though for different reasons or on a different scale. I was not necessarily comparing them even though they were in the same sentence. And I do think that both have had reverberations to this day.

The one is a symbol (and terrible reality) of and to the World War II generation. The other has become (at least to some) a symbol of and to the Sixties/hippie generation. And note I said a symbol to at least some, in each case.

Now the reality of Altamont can be debated, but I will leave the literal details for others ... it is definitely believed by some to have marked, if not the end, then the alter ego of that generation, or exposed the dark side of it.

So there you have it.


plexi

To attach any significance between Pearl Harbor and Altamont is pueurile.

"The wonder of Jimi Hendrix was that he could stand up at all he was so pumped full of drugs." Patsy, Patsy Stone

And, I might add, this is particularly interesting as the hippie/Sixties generation was diametrically opposed, at least to some extent, to their fathers' WWII generation and its values. The latter was the "establishment" of the "anti-establishment" movement.

So, two symbols of clashing, opposing generations, the anniversaries of which fall together. I suppose this could be carried further, but . . .

And note, I have said "a symbol" "for at least some" in the case of each.

I think that this can be reasonably argued and is defencible. A good case can be made for it.


plexi

i took this from the exact location of the stage, looking out toward the meredith hunter site, toward the left

[www.flickr.com]

Pearl Harbour - they knew that was gonna happen, they did nothing...and we have what happened. Very similar to 9/11.

Altamont - Meredith Hunter getting killed had next to nothing in terms of importance as...

John Lennon getting killed. Very very very big difference in the way each one influenced anything.

In case you don't remember, I think there were just a few people lined up in a couple of places mourning Lennon while...I don't know of anyone mourning Hunter's death in any other part of the world except for his girlfriend.

Regardless, the loss of Lennon and/or Hunter did not have the kind of effect on the country of the US like the awful Pearl Harbour did.

Each dead person is one to much

__________________________

And then there is the Who concert and the Pearl Jam concert...yet alone other shows by whowever where/when people died. Perhaps Hunter was the first death at a 'fest' of some sort (I know that's probably not correct for Altamont - did it even have a title?) that brought attention to the whole big crowd scene...

I dunno. Just fishing. When someone dies, somewhere someone knew that person.

I really think i'm missing something . . .

how has Altamont made "verberations that are felt to this very day"?

I don't get it. Altamont is a symbol of the end of the 60's, end of peace and love generation, end of an era, etc., its a "symbol" that pop historians like to talk about. Surely it affected the rock culture and one can't deny it brought alot of attention and mystique to the rolling stones . . .

but i'm not convinced that Altamont changed much. If Altamont did not occured or was not given such notoriety, would the 60's/hippie generation dream die out? Yes, it would have. Pop culture and society evolve. The 60's generation would probably had gone through the same changes as it did without the hype of Altamont.

With that being said, we, as Stones lovers, give Altamont to much significance and reverence. I believe the observance of December 6, December 7, and December 8 should be made. But Dec 6 is much less significant than Dec 7th and Dec 8th. Most people who believe in Dec 6's relevance today usually are people with their ear to popular culture or are into cultural history, or just love the rolling stones.

Dec 7th, however, is a date that will live in infamy. The entire world and world history were affected that day. That date will resonate throughout history and continue to be taught in schools through the world.

and,

Dec 8th- one of the most beloved and influential figures of the 20th century was murdered. A bit more significant that a "symbol" of the end to an era.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-07 05:31 by NorthShoreBlues2.

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Gazza

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shortfatfanny
"In terms of world events,a fatality at a rock concert isnt earth shattering."

That´s true,but the whole incl. the killing is always mentioned til today as the horrible
end not of only a decade but of an era as well..

Well, my point is that its merely a cliche. It didnt actually 'end' anything. Festivals continued after that without significant incident, people still believed in all that peace and love stuff, the counter culture didnt collapse overnight, the Vietnam war rumbled on for another 3 years etc. Its a convenient tag to put on it because it was an antithesis to the good 'vibe' of Woodstock four months earlier and because it happened to take place at the very end of the most revolutionary decade in the history of popular music. Its convenient to just put a lid on it with a tag saying "this is where it all ended". Four decades later, to most people its a footnote in history or else its simply something theyre unaware of.

Quote
shortfatfanny
So it is significant til today ( organisation,huge gathering of masses,etc) ,of course the starving people in Africa or wherever give a sh** about it.

And mentioning someone who was there that he didn´t notice anything bad is a statement by him/them
but no proof.

No, but its a better sense of perspective than the film gives which only concentrates on events which directly affected a couple of hundred people at the front of the stage in a crowd of over 300,000. Most people who were at the show couldnt even see the stage (it was only 3 feet high and there were no big screens back then) so they hadnt much idea of the extent of the carnage down front. Scaffer's post - someone who was there - gives a perspective on the day which the Maysles Brothers tended to largely overlook in their film. Its every bit as valid.

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shortfatfanny
Wasn´t there of course not,but watching the film doesn´t lead me to the opinion
that there was just a funny barbecue (no Gazza ,neither I´m quoting you now nor do
I think you wanted to create a myth),just let me point out that in a polemic way.

Well, a telling quote comes from Jagger himself who, after getting asked for what seemed like the millionth time about the horrible experience that was Altamont, said something like (I'm paraphrasing a bit) "You know, I've met loads of people who were at that show and told me what a great day they had. Sometimes I get the impression that the only two people who didnt have a good time were me and the poor guy who got killed..."

uh, make that three (and i'm only speaking for myself, not for several friends of mine who were there, who i think would agree with me). the altamont concert was a nightmare from my perspective. as gazza points out, though, and i think he underestimates, only a small percentage of the estimated 300K people there (i'd say one percent, or 3K) were directly affected by all the negative energy going on close to the stage area.

is there anyone out there, reading iorr, who was there and had a good time at altamont?

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T&A

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scaffer
The Stones show started with trouble, as is well known, but they played many numbers after the last of the serious violence, and as we left it sure seemed as if 95% of the audience were exhausted but highly satisfied by that amazing day.

then the stones had to go and make the movie and ruin it for everyone...

True, but they would not have performed the free concert in the first place if not for the movie.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-12-07 17:44 by Ket.