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71Tele
How close to BTB was the single "Have You Seen Your Mother Baby"? Also, think of "Ride On Baby". The songs from this era had a certain propulsiveness and pop drive that also remind me of Petula Clark in an odd sort of way. It was all Swinging London. Love that era.

I think Have you seen... was recorded circa the same sessions as the early RCA sessions for songs that ended up on BtB's.

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His Majesty

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71Tele
How close to BTB was the single "Have You Seen Your Mother Baby"? Also, think of "Ride On Baby". The songs from this era had a certain propulsiveness and pop drive that also remind me of Petula Clark in an odd sort of way. It was all Swinging London. Love that era.

I think Have you seen... was recorded circa the same sessions as the early RCA sessions for songs that ended up on BtB's.

Thought so. Thanks.

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kleermaker
Between the Buttons or Beggars? I'm afraid I'll choose Buttons.

You're joking, right?

Drew

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drewmaster

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kleermaker
Between the Buttons or Beggars? I'm afraid I'll choose Buttons.

You're joking, right?

Drew

Drew, I mean it. I admit that Beggars probably is a 'greater' album, but my heart goes to Buttons.

Love the track, but somehow the speed seems off. A tad too slow maybe, mostly at the start.

Always liked this one. Together with Back Street Girl my favourite from Between the Buttons.

The first Stones album I ever had, and this was my favorite song on it. Love the piano in the mud; and the "hey hey's" through the song, and esp. during the guitar solo

....All souled out



ROCKMAN

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Rockman
....All souled out

... Ohhhh! my heart! Broken yet again

...mmmmmmmmmmm



ROCKMAN

Jack Nitzsche is very prominent on this cut and on half the cuts on Between The Buttons. The better cuts on this album have Nitzsche pounding away or more subtlety such as Ruby Tuesday. With this much centrality he should have gotten some song writing credits. He loved the whole LA scene so much he just let it slide.

Songs written by Jack Nitzsche you have heard:
-Needles and Pins (song)
-Up Where We Belong

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Jack Nitzsche, who at the time was in the middle of the most significant period of his film music career, him having already written the music for An Officer and a Gentleman and The Razor’s Edge, and with scores like The Jewel of the Nile and Stand By Me on his horizon. He earned a Best Score Golden Globe nomination for Starman too, to go with his various Best Score and Best Song Oscar wins and nominations. Electronics were very big in Hollywood at the time, in the wake of successful scores by composers like Brad Fiedel, Giorgio Moroder and Harold Faltermeyer, and Starman sought to capitalize on that; mainly due to Nitzsche’s compositional talent, the resulting score is actually one of the better examples of the style.

I’m not well-versed enough to really know what sorts of synthesizers Nitzsche and his programmers/performers Brian Banks and Anthony Marinelli used to create the sounds of Starman, but there is a great deal of depth and creativity in the end result, with different textures and synthetic elements combining in the final work. The score is built around a recurring main theme, dream like and haunting, which has an airy,

Creepy. But, creepy great!! Love the guitar, drums, well, everything. Lovely sounding tune. Somehow a little out of kilter with the rest of the album. Album a bit light, this track a bit heavy.

It was just like that, I was put down flat

Let that be a warning to you, boys...

HEY, HEY!!

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triceratops
Jack Nitzsche is very prominent on this cut and on half the cuts on Between The Buttons. The better cuts on this album have Nitzsche pounding away or more subtlety such as Ruby Tuesday. With this much centrality he should have gotten some song writing credits. He loved the whole LA scene so much he just let it slide.

Songs written by Jack Nitzsche you have heard:
-Needles and Pins (song)
-Up Where We Belong

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Jack Nitzsche, who at the time was in the middle of the most significant period of his film music career, him having already written the music for An Officer and a Gentleman and The Razor’s Edge, and with scores like The Jewel of the Nile and Stand By Me on his horizon. He earned a Best Score Golden Globe nomination for Starman too, to go with his various Best Score and Best Song Oscar wins and nominations. Electronics were very big in Hollywood at the time, in the wake of successful scores by composers like Brad Fiedel, Giorgio Moroder and Harold Faltermeyer, and Starman sought to capitalize on that; mainly due to Nitzsche’s compositional talent, the resulting score is actually one of the better examples of the style.

I’m not well-versed enough to really know what sorts of synthesizers Nitzsche and his programmers/performers Brian Banks and Anthony Marinelli used to create the sounds of Starman, but there is a great deal of depth and creativity in the end result, with different textures and synthetic elements combining in the final work. The score is built around a recurring main theme, dream like and haunting, which has an airy,

That's not how songwriting works. Adding good stuff on songs is not the same as writing the songs, even though you improved them.

thanks for your warning))) i´ll keep it in mind))

for me the best song on the whole album. always liked it a lot!

It depends. If what is added results in the song melody being changed, ie the melody borrows from the contribution, then it would not be out of place to expect a song writing credit.

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fuzzbox
It depends. If what is added results in the song melody being changed, ie the melody borrows from the contribution, then it would not be out of place to expect a song writing credit.

That's true. If one would re-write the melody after something a session musician added, I guess that would be fair.

For instance, if Mick or Keith didn't have the She's A Rainbow melody down, and copped it off Nicky, to make the verses etc.

A hypothetic example, of course, as we can hear Mick or Keith hum the melody to Nicky on the Satanic Sessions

I've been writing songs (not very good ones) for about 20 years. I know that things people play can alter the finished song. Mick started adding his vocals after backing tracks were recorded early on, so lots of opportunities there for other peoples playing to affect song melodies.

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fuzzbox
I've been writing songs (not very good ones) for about 20 years. I know that things people play can alter the finished song. Mick started adding his vocals after backing tracks were recorded early on, so lots of opportunities there for other peoples playing to affect song melodies.

Then we have the same experiences. It happens, but it happens rarely - that's my experience anyway. And it certainly doesn't happen without band members noticing it/acknowledging it. If the Stones got sessions guys to make their melodies, there would have been even more fuss about this issue, imo.

It can be only part of a melody, like some note pitches or their rhythms.

It happens plenty without acknowledgment, atleast sleeve credit and financially.

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fuzzbox
It can be only part of a melody, like some note pitches or their rhythms.

It happens plenty without acknowledgment, atleast sleeve credit and financially.

Suggesting note pitches for a song someone else wrote would be a bit of a stretch, imo. Unless there are lots of note pitches/or VERY strategic changes. And changing the beat of a song isn't really to write that song.

If Charlie said "let's make this a reggae song instead", should he earn songwriting royalties, or is that an arrangement contribution (which also creates royalties, if credited properly)?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-02 17:03 by DandelionPowderman.

Changing 5 notes of a songs 10 note melody can have a very significant affect. Same if you change the rhythm, timing of notes. A songs melody is defined by pitch and rhythm so changes to either is changing the song.

No matter the contribution, getting the credit is not automatic, it is something that is agreed, pushed for, stolen and all the other many ways people end up with their name as the song writer.

Song writing credits and related business is a bit of a joke to be honest. I learned the hard way. Copyright is such a strange thing when you think about it, especially as there are so many similarities between so many copyrighted works.

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fuzzbox
Changing 5 notes of a songs 10 note melody can have a very significant affect. Same if you change the rhythm, timing of notes. A songs melody is defined by pitch and rhythm so changes to either is changing the song.

No matter the contribution, getting the credit is not automatic, it is something that is agreed, pushed for, stolen and all the other many ways people end up with their name as the song writer.

Song writing credits and related business is a bit of a joke to be honest. I learned the hard way. Copyright is such a strange thing when you think about it, especially as there are so many similarities between so many copyrighted works.

I don't disagree, not at all. Just wanted to nuance it a bit

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DandelionPowderman

If Charlie said "let's make this a reggae song instead", should he earn songwriting royalties, or is that an arrangement contribution (which also creates royalties, if credited properly)?

It depends on which group of musicians he was playing with when he made the suggestion, the timing career wise, who their manager is, who their producer is, who their record company is, who their lawyers are, what agreements have been made, what agreements have not been made, the mood of one or many of the people present at the time or later, honest mistakes, intentional mistakes etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-03-02 17:40 by fuzzbox.

..an other fine bridge : "all sold out I've never seen a mind so tangled.....

My favorite track on my 2nd favorite Stones album (1st: Aftermath). Personally, I'd rather see them do either Buttons or Aftermath live in its entirity over Sticky Fingers. Just too many great tunes that have never been performed on stage, All Sold Out being the best of all.

A nice snapshot of mid-60s pop sound turning technicolor, touches of the coming wave psychedelia, and not quite as monochromatic as say Cloud or Satisfaction. A wider sound lens. Would've made a nice A/B side with the unreleased Get Yourself Together. Some similarity between the two on drum fills too.

This not ever much talked song has been always one of my favourite cuts from BETWEEN THE BUTTONS. I recall this, with "Miss Amanda Jones", being the one that stood out when I listened the album for a first time.

It definitively is an era piece - that of the first rays of rising psychedelic sun shining so bright. Like many songs from that era, there is interesting things going on, and the pen of Jagger/Richard so free-going, advanturous, brave. I especially like the straight-forward chorus, which is a really non-typical kind of melody for them. A bit like "Paint It Black" in that sense.

However, musically the track reminds in many ways of another song of theirs - "Stray Cat Blues". Just listen the drums, some chaotic noise, dramatic pauses, Keith's wild guitar, the way the tension is build up between the verses and the chorus... Or it could put like: "All Sold Out" is a young and eager rhythm and blues band going crazy in pop-psychedelic waters, trying new things with no second thoughts, while "Stray Cat Blues" is them getting out of there, but having learned a thing or two during that adventure, and with all that experience, together with just re-established connection to rhythm and blues, sounding masterful and mature.

If listened today, maybe there is some dated naivity involved, and maybe they can't quite control the atmosphere yet, or keep it as fascinating and coherent as possible, and like many other tracks in BETWEEN THE BUTTONS the pruduction suffers some over-use of latest tricks, but who cares... its freshness is ageless. The golden age of rock music is taking huge steps forward, and nothing was impossible for the imagination back then. Everyone was looking forward, and nothing was established. "All Sold Out" is a fruit of that.

- Doxa

It is indeed a fore-runner to the heavier rock tracks that would follow, like SCB, Child Of The Moon and eventually JJF.

But the funny thing with All Sold Out is that it rocks for different reasons. The guitar(s) are powerful, but very sparsely (but strategically) placed. Listening to the individual guitar track would probably be a nightmare, but blended with the music it sounds wonderful, almost heavy metal in places.

The Beatles-esque bridge is indeed lovely.

Love this track! I first heard it on the Solid Rock-compilation, and instantly fell in love with it

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DandelionPowderman


The Beatles-esque bridge is indeed lovely.

Hi birthday boy, do you consider that as a bridge? (the part "All Sold Out, I'd never seen.."). To me it works like a chorus...

- Doxa