I know many fans assume that Keith was always the main backing / harmony vocalist, but this isn't true. It was Brian & Bill who did backing vocals on the 1st album, & presumably on all songs predating that (I Wanna Be Your Man, Money, etc). This is confirmed by the footage of The Arthur Haynes Show. I also think it's Brian doing those great backing vocals on the BBC version of 'Crackin' Up'. So, when did Keith start joining in, & quickly take over from Brian? Myself, I suspect Keith's vocal debut was on 'It's All Over Now'.

Thoughts anyone?

I remeber "Empty Heart" has a strong Keith vocal presence. But that was recorded after "It's All Over Now", right?

Aah... now I remember. "Tell Me" has that beautiful and distinctive Keith back voc. Perhaps the reason for Keith singing that it was because the song was made by him, and it belongs more to that 'lousy pop songs and ballads' section that were planned to be recorded by someone else, not The Stones. For some reason, ALO decided to release the Stones demo. I remember reading that the guys were surprised to have found the song from their first album.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 13:31 by Doxa.

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Doxa
I remeber "Empty Heart" has a strong Keith vocal presence. But that was recorded after "It's All Over Now", right?

Aah... now I remember. "Tell Me" has that beautiful and distinctive Keith back voc. Perhaps the reason for Keith singing that it was because the song was made by him, and it belongs more to that 'lousy pop songs and ballads' section that were planned to be recorded by someone else, not The Stones. For some reason, ALO decided to release the Stones demo. I remember reading that the guys were surprised to have found the song from their first album.

- Doxa

I often thought 'Tell Me' sounds like Keith, despite the credits on the 1st LP! Your explanation makes sense.

It was a mixed affair really, I guess depending on who did what on the live recorded track and in the overdub. If Brian did harmonica overdub, Keith and Bill would do a vocal overdub at the same time. I think after the first album and while recording the second it was decided that Brian and Bill didn't have the best of voices. Bill would sing backup live until '66 I believe.

Tell Me: Keith and Mick

Can I Get a Witness, You Can make it if you Try: all except Charlie

Walking the Dog: harmony by Brian

Come On: Brian and Bill

I wanna Be Your Man: Brian

Bye Bye Johnnie: Mick and Keith

Money: Keith, Brian, Mick

Poison Ivy, You Better Move On: Bill and Brian

Fortune Teller: Mick, Keith and Brian


Mathijs

Brian's bu-vox on Walking The Dog is great, imo.

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Doxa
I remeber "Empty Heart" has a strong Keith vocal presence. But that was recorded after "It's All Over Now", right?

Aah... now I remember. "Tell Me" has that beautiful and distinctive Keith back voc. Perhaps the reason for Keith singing that it was because the song was made by him, and it belongs more to that 'lousy pop songs and ballads' section that were planned to be recorded by someone else, not The Stones. For some reason, ALO decided to release the Stones demo. I remember reading that the guys were surprised to have found the song from their first album.

- Doxa

All those confident statements that it's Brian and Bill throughout the first album have been bothering me for some time, because Tell Me is so clearly Keith to my ears - thanks Doxa for a reasonable explanation why it probably was the odd-song-out.

yeah, Keith was singing back-up on some numbers right from the get-go - that wail on Tell Me is so wild and fine!
here's a nice shot of some early back-ups being laid down - it's supposed to be from Chess Studios in june 1964:


- apparently Chess Studios june 10th 1964 by Peter Stuart (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)


>> Bill would sing backup live until '66 I believe. <<

Bill was still singing back-up on stage in 67. i guess it was his success with In Another Land
that led to his giving up doing backing vocals in concert


- Warsaw april 13th 1967 by Marek Karewicz (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 23:11 by with sssoul.

I read somewhere that the only backing vocal done by Brian was Walking The Dog. So it was probably wrong then...

salt of the earth off begars banquet

>> Walking The Dog <<

Walking the Dog and Money are the ones Brian comes through the clearest on.
i dig the gravelly sound of his voice - quite distinctive

And on which song did Keith for the first time sing solo?
Something happened to me yesterday?

>> And on which song did Keith for the first time sing solo?
Something Happened to Me Yesterday? <<

if you mean on Stones releases: right
(he did some solos in his choirboy days but the bootlegs aren't in wide circulation ... yet )

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Mathijs
I think after the first album and while recording the second it was decided that Brian and Bill didn't have the best of voices.

This is probably true, but I also think that Keith was much more shy than Mick & Brian in the early days, & he didn't gain confidence until later (Bill might not have been a very confident singer, but he had plenty of self-confidence elsewhere, hence his success with women!).

I sometimes wonder how things would've turned out if Andrew had pushed Mick & Brian to write songs together.

I live in hope that some of the rumoured demos with Brian singing lead will turn up one day...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 16:45 by Sleepy City.

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Sleepy City

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Mathijs
I think after the first album and while recording the second it was decided that Brian and Bill didn't have the best of voices.

This is probably true, but I also think that Keith was much more shy than Mick & Brian in the early days, & he didn't gain confidence until later (Bill might not have been a very confident singer, but he had plenty of self-confidence elsewhere, hence his success with women!).

I sometimes wonder how things would've turned out if Andrew had pushed Mick & Brian to write songs together.

I live in hope that some of the rumoured demos with Brian singing lead will turn up one day...

I don't buy the theory about a shy Keith. His nature may be shy, but by the time they recorded the first album he had been on hundreds of stages throughout the country already, playing in front of hundreds and thousands of teenagers. He might come across as shy, but he definitely knew what he wanted.

Concerning Brian and Mick writing together: According to Oldham he first tried to team Brian with Gene Pitney, and later with Jagger, but it became clear very fast that Brian wasn't a song writer at all.

Mathijs

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with sssoul
Bill was still singing back-up on stage in 67. i guess it was his success with In Another Land
that led to his giving up doing backing vocals in concert


- Warsaw april 13th 1967 by Marek Karewicz (courtesy of BrownEyedGirll)

Brian seems to have given up singing backing vocals on stage earlier. Even on the 1965 NME Poll Winners Concert he appears to be vocally silent (Bill can be seen singing though).

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with sssoul
>> And on which song did Keith for the first time sing solo?
Something Happened to Me Yesterday? <<

if you mean on Stones releases: right
(he did some solos in his choirboy days but the bootlegs aren't in wide circulation ... yet )

What about bootleg demos, any Keith lead vocals that pre-date this? 'Sometimes Happy, Sometimes Blue' (the demo for 'Dandelion') is from around this time too of course.

I'm still wondering if a Rolling Stone is singing on the circulating demo(?) of 'I Know'.

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Mathijs

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Sleepy City

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Mathijs
I think after the first album and while recording the second it was decided that Brian and Bill didn't have the best of voices.

This is probably true, but I also think that Keith was much more shy than Mick & Brian in the early days, & he didn't gain confidence until later (Bill might not have been a very confident singer, but he had plenty of self-confidence elsewhere, hence his success with women!).

I sometimes wonder how things would've turned out if Andrew had pushed Mick & Brian to write songs together.

I live in hope that some of the rumoured demos with Brian singing lead will turn up one day...

I don't buy the theory about a shy Keith. His nature may be shy, but by the time they recorded the first album he had been on hundreds of stages throughout the country already, playing in front of hundreds and thousands of teenagers. He might come across as shy, but he definitely knew what he wanted.

Concerning Brian and Mick writing together: According to Oldham he first tried to team Brian with Gene Pitney, and later with Jagger, but it became clear very fast that Brian wasn't a song writer at all.

Mathijs

Bill Wyman's STONE ALONE is quite strong source regarding the backing vocals matters. Bill is very strongly claiming that it was ALO who was behind the change of the policy - bring Keith front, and recuding the roles of Bill and Brian, and Bill - perhaps naturally - sounds bitter. Giving Keith a chance to sing was a part of the deal (like pushing to write and produce ALO's orchestra, etc.) Anyway, I don't find Bill's description quite accurate - perhaps that was the way the things looked from his point of view, but what he says about Keith and Keith's ability to sing is tasteless. He claims that Keith is not a natural singer, and that he has lot of difficulties in opening his voice, etc. That is strange taking, for example, the soprano boy choir days into account. I find that also quite odd compared to the voices Brian and Bill have - there is not much material to judge from Brian, but from Bill there surely is enough to say that Bill for sure is not a "natural singer" either ... I don't know if Keith was shy or not, but for some reason he didn't sing very much in the early days. Perhaps he just wanted play the guitar, and so he was as also a bit pushed to do anything more than that (like to sing or write). Perhaps singing the back up vocals and making own songs came hand in hand - I think "Tell Me" seems to indicate quite a lot into that direction (it also can be the case that Brian and Bill perhaps were not so keen on singing Mick and Keith's songs. There seemed to be quite a lot of ego things going on.)

Of that AlO pushing the guys write. I remember reading (from his first book I guess) that he asked Gene Pitney to learn Brian to write, like giving him some push, but that Pitney soon found out that it was impossible. There were also Brian/Keith combinations with no better results. There are some good quotes - don't remember if they were by ALO, Pitney or Keith - of Brian's tough and non-compromise-making attitude to writing. Also Bill Wyman was writing his own stuff; and the guys even tried one; there is that "Goodnight Baby" (or something like that) circulating from 1964. The picture Wymans gives of those days of how the dictator ALO plainly chose Mick and Keith to write, or preferred them with unjustice over the rest, is too simple. Seemingly ALO just wanted original material and hits, and he would surely used something by Charlie or Stu if they would have come up with something interesting. It just turned out that Mick and Keith clicked together, and turned out to be natural song writers.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 19:08 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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Mathijs

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Sleepy City

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Mathijs
I think after the first album and while recording the second it was decided that Brian and Bill didn't have the best of voices.

This is probably true, but I also think that Keith was much more shy than Mick & Brian in the early days, & he didn't gain confidence until later (Bill might not have been a very confident singer, but he had plenty of self-confidence elsewhere, hence his success with women!).

I sometimes wonder how things would've turned out if Andrew had pushed Mick & Brian to write songs together.

I live in hope that some of the rumoured demos with Brian singing lead will turn up one day...

I don't buy the theory about a shy Keith. His nature may be shy, but by the time they recorded the first album he had been on hundreds of stages throughout the country already, playing in front of hundreds and thousands of teenagers. He might come across as shy, but he definitely knew what he wanted.

Concerning Brian and Mick writing together: According to Oldham he first tried to team Brian with Gene Pitney, and later with Jagger, but it became clear very fast that Brian wasn't a song writer at all.

Mathijs

Bill Wyman's STONE ALONE is quite strong source regarding the backing vocals matters. Bill is very strongly claiming that it was ALO who was behind the change of the policy - bring Keith front, and recuding the roles of Bill and Brian, and Bill - perhaps naturally - sounds bitter. Giving Keith a chance to sing was a part of the deal (like pushing to write and produce ALO's orchestra, etc.) Anyway, I don't find Bill's description quite accurate - perhaps that was the way the things looked from his point of view, but what he says about Keith and Keith's ability to sing is tasteless. He claims that Keith is not a natural singer, and that he has lost of difficulties in opening his voice, etc. That is strange taking, for example, the soprano boy choir days into account. I find that also quite odd compared to the voices Brian and Bill have - there is not much material to judge from Brian, but from Bill there surely is enough to say that Bill for sure is not a "natural singer" either ... I don't know if Keith was shy or not, but for some reason he didn't sing very much in the early days. Perhaps he just wanted play the guitar, and so he was as also a bit pushed to do anything more than that (like to sing or write). Perhaps singing the back up vocals and making own songs came hand in hand - I think "Tell Me" seems to indicate quite a lot into that direction (it also can be the case that Brian and Bill perhaps were not so keen on singing Mick and Keith's songs. There seemed to be quite a lot of ego things going on.)

Of that AlO pushing the guys write. I remember reading (from his first book I guess) that he asked Gene Pitney to learn Brian to write, like giving him some push, but that Pitney soon found out that it was impossible. There were also Brian/Keith combinations with no better results. There are some good quotes - don't remember if they were by ALO, Pitney or Keith - of Brian's tough and non-compromise-making attitude to writing. Also Bill Wyman was writing his own stuff; and the guys even tried one; there is that "Goodnight Baby" (or something like that) circulating from 1964. The picture Wymans gives of those days of how the dictator ALO plainly chose Mick and Keith to write, or preferred them with unjustice over the rest, is too simple. Seemingly ALO just wanted original material and hits, and he would surely used something by Charlie or Stu if they would have come up with something interesting. It just turned out that Mick and Keith clicked together, and turned out to be natural song writers.

- Doxa

Thanks for all this...& the circulating Bill Wyman song is 'Goodbye Girl' (actually it's not bad at all, though like many of Jagger-Richards earliest songs it was perhaps a bit too "pop" for the band).

Yeah Sleep City, that's the one. Thanks for correcting me. It's not bad, but not any strong A-side, either...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 19:23 by Doxa.

>> What about bootleg demos, any Keith lead vocals that pre-date [Something Happened to Me Yesterday]?

well ... sort of! not demos but performances like the 1964 NME awards show
with that gloriously ferocious three-way shared lead on I'm Alright
and the july 17th 1964 Joe Loss Pop Show where Keith's "backing vocals" on If You Need Me dominate the whole tune -
he's not technically sharing the lead vocal on that, but he might as well be, and he's singing just *beautiful*.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 22:07 by with sssoul.

But we have to stick to the facts don't we. Keith sings backup on half of the first album, and about all songs ever since. He wrote most of the songs until '67, when Jagger starts writing as well. Keith is a brilliant backup singer, with a great voice that complements Jagger's beautifully. Jones and Wyman were crap singers, and that's all there is to say about it.

Mathijs

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Mathijs
But we have to stick to the facts don't we. Keith sings backup on half of the first album, and about all songs ever since. He wrote most of the songs until '67, when Jagger starts writing as well. Keith is a brilliant backup singer, with a great voice that complements Jagger's beautifully. Jones and Wyman were crap singers, and that's all there is to say about it.

Mathijs

It's been a loooong time since Keith was "a brilliant backup singer"...

If he still sang like he used to then we wouldn't have needed Bernard Fowler for the past couple of decades (& if Mick's voice had deteriated as much as Keith's then the group would've been forced to retire years ago!).

easy there - this thread was doing very nicely without the bashing, wasn't it?
both Mick's and Keith's voices have changed; it would be mighty strange if they hadn't, in 45 years.
and Keith has done plenty of gorgeous harmonizing in assorted recent contexts -
ever hear him with Norah Jones on Love Hurts, just for one beautiful example?
if you don't hear how fine his singing is these days i'm sorry for you, but plenty of people do hear it.
it's a tribal thing ... and anyway: isn't the topic of the thread the very early vocals?
maybe we could go back to that [passing popcorn]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-08-12 22:40 by with sssoul.

great thread, lots of great info on here

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with sssoul
>> And on which song did Keith for the first time sing solo?
Something Happened to Me Yesterday? <<

if you mean on Stones releases: right
(he did some solos in his choirboy days but the bootlegs aren't in wide circulation ... yet )

maybe we should ask her majesty the queen for a tape of her coronation service!

>> maybe we should ask her majesty the queen for a tape of her coronation service! <<

yeah - Keith's angelic soprano on Little Queenie was quite something, i'm sure
(Keith didn't sing at the coronation - he wasn't a choirboy yet at that time.
he did sing for the Queen, but at a different event.)

Who sang backup on "You Better Move On"?

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HEILOOBAAS
Who sang backup on "You Better Move On"?

Probably Brian & Bill.

Incidentally, I recall reading a review of an early show (Richmond Jazz Festival?), & it mentioned Brian's lead vocals on this song!

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with sssoul
>> What about bootleg demos, any Keith lead vocals that pre-date [Something Happened to Me Yesterday]?

well ... sort of! not demos but performances like the 1964 NME awards show
with that gloriously ferocious three-way shared lead on I'm Alright
and the july 17th 1964 Joe Loss Pop Show where Keith's "backing vocals" on If You Need Me dominate the whole tune -
he's not technically sharing the lead vocal on that, but he might as well be, and he's singing just *beautiful*.

I agree with your comments (though it's a pity about the out of tune guitar on 'The Joe Loss Show'!).

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with sssoul
>> maybe we should ask her majesty the queen for a tape of her coronation service! <<

yeah - Keith's angelic soprano on Little Queenie was quite something, i'm sure
(Keith didn't sing at the coronation - he wasn't a choirboy yet at that time.
he did sing for the Queen, but at a different event.)

really? always thought he did. how old was he back then? 8 years. that's a bit young, isn't it? on the other hand I don't know, how old these choir boys usually are.





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