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alimente
Taylor one of five directors, getting equal share of Stones income even after he left, preventing Ronnie from becoming a full member for nearly 20 years...

sure this explains Taylors lifestyle, living in holes like his Greenwich Village flat for many many years, releasing records on tiny labels like Stranger In This Town on Maze, with dubious soundquality, accepting gigs from almost everybody who ask him ... well, ok, something must have went terribly wrong with his finances - Stones directors usually do a bit better.

Like I said technically speaking they were still required to pay Taylor his 1/5 share over the records he helped to create (which were released on RSR).
However they suddenly stopped paying him in '81. This was not actually a legal thing to do (and on a personal level they have admitted to Taylor they still owe him those artist royalties).
After this they didn't offer Ronnie the same legal status, fearing they'd get in trouble again and maybe also because they were taking into account a potential lawsuit that Taylor could bring.

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alimente
Taylor one of five directors, getting equal share of Stones income even after he left, preventing Ronnie from becoming a full member for nearly 20 years...

sure this explains Taylors lifestyle, living in holes like his Greenwich Village flat for many many years, releasing records on tiny labels like Stranger In This Town on Maze, with dubious soundquality, accepting gigs from almost everybody who ask him ... well, ok, something must have went terribly wrong with his finances - Stones directors usually do a bit better.

i agree...whats up with this??? if we are to believe this you'd think mick taylor would have a lot of money....

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alimente
Taylor one of five directors, getting equal share of Stones income even after he left, preventing Ronnie from becoming a full member for nearly 20 years...

sure this explains Taylors lifestyle, living in holes like his Greenwich Village flat for many many years, releasing records on tiny labels like Stranger In This Town on Maze, with dubious soundquality, accepting gigs from almost everybody who ask him ... well, ok, something must have went terribly wrong with his finances - Stones directors usually do a bit better.

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stoned in washington dc
i agree...whats up with this??? if we are to believe this you'd think mick taylor would have a lot of money....

Read what I posted in answer to alimente's comment. Taylor is owed a lot of money. But has not been paid since 1981.

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Lightnin'

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alimente
Taylor one of five directors, getting equal share of Stones income even after he left, preventing Ronnie from becoming a full member for nearly 20 years...

sure this explains Taylors lifestyle, living in holes like his Greenwich Village flat for many many years, releasing records on tiny labels like Stranger In This Town on Maze, with dubious soundquality, accepting gigs from almost everybody who ask him ... well, ok, something must have went terribly wrong with his finances - Stones directors usually do a bit better.

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stoned in washington dc
i agree...whats up with this??? if we are to believe this you'd think mick taylor would have a lot of money....

Read what I posted in answer to alimente's comment. Taylor is owed a lot of money. But has not been paid since 1981.

well this seems weird to me.. IF he is owed the money why wouldnt he simply sue?

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Lightnin'
Read what I posted in answer to alimente's comment. Taylor is owed a lot of money. But has not been paid since 1981.

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stoned in washington dc
well this seems weird to me.. IF he is owed the money why wouldnt he simply sue?

I think because Taylor was hoping/expecting they could work it out without going to court. They are well aware it needs to be straightened out and have admitted this to him. The Stones say he'll have to accept a settlement while Taylor says his royalties have to be reinstated - since his right to receive a percentage of the sales from the records (those he played on) is never ending based on the documents they signed in 1970.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-17 17:06 by Lightnin'.

Now I'm out of my field of expertise here, maybe someone can enlighten me. Regardless of the monies that MT may have already received and any funds he may come into in the future, does he still hold British citizenship and/or is he residing in the UK enough months out of the year to be hit with a massive income tax? I just wondered what his rate would be and what the laws are at the present time.

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Lightnin'
I think because Taylor was hoping/expecting they could work it out without going to court. They are well aware it needs to be straightened out and have admitted this to him. The Stones say he'll have to accept a settlement while Taylor says his royalties have to be reinstated - since his right to receive a percentage of the sales from the records (those he played on) is never ending based on the documents they signed in 1970.

Lightnin'

If your assumptions are based on facts, it would be nice if you let us know more details, because the whole story doesn't make much sense.

If there was an agreement that allowed Taylor to claim money, I am sure that sooner or later he would have sued the stones (as he did after tattoo you).

And if for some technicality he got screwed, he would show some form of animosity vs. the stones. I don't think he wouldn't have said anything.

C

I've been reading this thread with growing interest. Mr. Lightnin' (or is it mrs?) reveals a lot of information that I was not aware of. What are the sources for your knowledge about these matters, if I might be so rude to ask? Do you have any insight in those documents you mention that were signed when they established Rolling Stones Records?
As I found out only a couple of months ago, all the shares in the company Promopub BV in Amsterdam are held by a foundation (Stichting Administratiekantoor Herengracht B, Chamber of Commerce file number: 34245646). This foundation only has two members: Mick and Keith. According to the annual account Promopub has two musicians on employment contract. They could be Mick and Keith as well, I guess.

Is promopub the company in which the song writing credits are administered?

Then there is Promogroup BV. All shares of this company are held by another foundation (Stichting Administratiekantoor Herengracht A, Chamber of Commerce file number: 34245644). This foundation has only three (3) members: Mick, Keith and Charlie.

Now, what do you make of this information? Where is Ronnie in this scheme?

BTW: Promogroup BV had 8 persons employed in the year 2006, besides this the company has three musicians on employment contracts.

Would you know who these employees are? Please and thank you.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-17 17:40 by marcovandereijk.

it just don't make sense lightnin'.. it doesn't pass the smell test..

if mick taylor was owed moneys he would not have failed to react for 27 years! what is he waiting for?? to be dead??

if someone tells you "you're right i owe you this money..we'll see what we can do" and they do nothing for decades you don't just sit there..if you have the contract its a clear situation.. you go to court .. you win and you collect.. MOREOVER mick jagger and the rest of the organization would know he would win...

my guess is he was bought out a long time ago.. around the time he was selling his platinum and gold records and guitars to pay for stuff..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-17 17:40 by stoned in washington dc.

As far as I understand, Taylor has received and still receives monthly paychecks for his work with the Stones. The only problem in '81 was that he didn't get paid for the 2 songs on TY where he plays on. He threatened to sue, and received a lumped sum of money.

Mathijs

Performance royalties based on sales of records and radio play. Right? Then he should be getting some money. He played on a handful of songs that are on the radio a lot. Brown Sugar, Tumbling Dice, Heartbreaker, Honky Tonk, Wild Horses. What else? That's about all I ever hear on the radio - I hardly listen to it - but those are the Taylor tunes I can come up with. Are there any others? I'm lazy. I don't feel like doing the research at this time ha ha.

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skipstone
Performance royalties based on sales of records and radio play. Right? Then he should be getting some money. He played on a handful of songs that are on the radio a lot. Brown Sugar, Tumbling Dice, Heartbreaker, Honky Tonk, Wild Horses. What else? That's about all I ever hear on the radio - I hardly listen to it - but those are the Taylor tunes I can come up with. Are there any others? I'm lazy. I don't feel like doing the research at this time ha ha.

Don't forget Angie!!!

C

LOL - always nice to read some good old Dutch humor

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skipstone
Ronnie Wood songwriting credits with The Rolling Stones:
Everything Is Turning To Gold
Dance Part 1
If I Was A Dancer
Black Limousine
No Use In Crying
Pretty Beat Up
One Hit (To The Body)
Fight
Dirty Work
Had It With You

Songs he didn't get credit for that I am aware of:
It's Only Rock'N'Roll
Hey, Negrita

Mick Taylor songwriting credits with The Rolling Stones:
Ventilator Blues

Songs he said he helped write/didn't credit for:
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Time Waits For No One

What else? I forget the other tunes. Ronnie actually came up with part of IORR and Hey Negrita but Mick T played a guitar solo on CYHMK and thinks that's songwriting credit?

That is what that is about.

Mick T had more songs to be credited for:

Moonlight Mile
Sway
etc.

songs which he and Mick wrote / worked on because Keith was way too stoned to participate. Keith participation GHS, EOMS, IORR was not too much to talk about.

The result of Keiths drug use everybody sees today (unfortunately) - like Mick says in an interview - he was a junkie. His lack of memory etc affects his paying nowadays.

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liddas
Last time I saw him here in Milano, he introduced Knocking as a song that he "had been playing some time before joining the Stones".
C

First, this is stage banter. It's unclear what he was saying.
Second, my inference upon hearing this was that the solo was something he had played before. On another occasion, he's indicated that the solo was inspired by Coryell. In any case, I still have yet to hear him actually claim he should have received a writing credit.

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marcovandereijk
What are the sources for your knowledge about these matters, if I might be so rude to ask?

Do you have any insight in those documents you mention that were signed when they established Rolling Stones Records?

The best possible and yes. I can't go into any more detail here.

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marcovandereijk
Is Promopub BV the company in which the song writing credits are administered?

Promopub BV is the publishing arm of Promotone BV (which retains copyright control of the band's records). Promopub adminsters the publishing rights of most Jagger-Richards songs. At least those that are not part of the ABKCO catalogue and are not (or no longer) part of the catalogue that Columbia-Screen Gems-EMI still holds.
Colgem-EMI bought the entire Promopub catalogue in 1977, plus all songs written from '78 -'84 were also published by them.
Eventually all the publishing rights (except ABKCO) will revert back to Promopub, since '99 they have been acquiring the rights to songs.

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marcovandereijk
Then there is Promogroup BV. All shares of this company are held by another foundation (Stichting Administratiekantoor Herengracht A, Chamber of Commerce file number: 34245644). This foundation has only three (3) members: Mick, Keith and Charlie.

Now, what do you make of this information? Where is Ronnie in this scheme?

Nowhere. Mr Wood was simply not invited to join the club. He does get to share in the tourprofits etc but they didn't give him the same legal status. The two foundations you mention were formed just over two years ago, after the Stones had a big business meeting in Amsterdam. The purpose is to protect their estates. Two of the original directors (Taylor and Wyman) are not part of the new foundation because they left the band. Before April 2006 you could not see the names of the directors in the records of the Chambers of Commerce because they were not registered in their own names.
Mr Wood does not have the same privileges as Jagger, Richards, Taylor, Watts and Wyman have (or had - while they part of the band).

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marcovandereijk
BTW: Promogroup BV had 8 persons employed in the year 2006, besides this the company has three musicians on employment contracts.

Would you know who these employees are? Please and thank you.

Promogroup is the umbrella company, all the Stones companies formed in 1970 are part of this group, e.g. Promotone, Musidor, Promotour etc. It's not hard to guess who the musicians are. I know some of the other employees. It's not really important who works there. The major decisions are made from the London office, the Amsterdam office just carry out their orders.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-17 21:08 by Lightnin'.

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liddas
If your assumptions are based on facts, it would be nice if you let us know more details, because the whole story doesn't make much sense.

Bizarre but true. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.

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liddas
If there was an agreement that allowed Taylor to claim money, I am sure that sooner or later he would have sued the stones (as he did after tattoo you).

There is not just one agreement, the details of the business set up they designed in 1970 are notoriously complicated. If you'd just want to read all the documents once it would keep you occupied for weeks and weeks. And I can't guarantee that you would understand what you are reading.
By the way Taylor did not actually sue the Stones after Tattoo You, he simply had his lawyer write a letter enquiring who exactly gave them permission to release recordings that embodied his guitar playing.

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liddas
And if for some technicality he got screwed, he would show some form of animosity vs. the stones. I don't think he wouldn't have said anything.

In public (when he talks to Stones fans for instance) Taylor doesn't show animosity towards the Stones, that doesn't mean he doesn't feel bitter about the way he's been treated.

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Mathijs
As far as I understand, Taylor has received and still receives monthly paychecks for his work with the Stones. The only problem in '81 was that he didn't get paid for the 2 songs on TY where he plays on. He threatened to sue, and received a lumped sum of money.

Mathijs

Any idea if he is still rich?
According to B.Wymann (several years ago)he lived with his mom and sold all his guitars....

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Amsterdamned
Any idea if he is still rich?
According to B.Wymann (several years ago)he lived with his mom and sold all his guitars....

Mr Wyman apologised later to Taylor for saying these things (which were supposed to be off the record) during an interview.
At the time that Bill called Taylor and asked him to contribute some guitar to the first Rhythm Kings CD, Taylor's mother was terminally ill (unbeknownst to Wyman). Taylor had been with his mother for over a week in hospital and travelled across the country to London in order to be at the studio he had recommended the week before to Bill. The studio was owned by Taylor's then manager.

When he arrived at the studio (with just one guitar) he told Bill he just came from Wales where he had been with his mum, but that he didn't want to talk about it. (Probably because he was too upset to talk about it).
Sadly, Bill not only jumped to all the wrong conclusions but made them public when talking to a French fan who runs a website.
Wyman is quite a strange guy who can be a bit narrowminded and quick to judge others. Most musicians don't spend a lot of time obsessing about money and possessions, in Wyman's first book he makes mention of his bankbalance every two pages. (well, almost).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2008-07-18 13:51 by Lightnin'.

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Lightnin'

If you'd just want to read all the documents once it would keep you occupied for weeks and weeks.

Total exaggaration, but good for all kinds of myths.

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Lightnin'

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Amsterdamned
Any idea if he is still rich?
According to B.Wymann (several years ago)he lived with his mom and sold all his guitars....

Mr Wyman apologised later to Taylor for saying these things (which were supposed to be off the record) during an interview.
At the time that Bill called Taylor and asked him to contribute some guitar to the first Rhythm Kings CD, Taylor's mother was terminally ill (unbeknownst to Wyman). Taylor had been with his mother for over a week in hospital and travelled across the country to London in order to be at the studio he had recommended the week before to Bill.

When he arrived at the studio (with just one guitar) he told Bill he just came from Wales where he had been with his mum, but that he didn't want to talk about it. (Probably because he was too upset to talk about it).
Sadly, Bill not only jumped to all the wrong conclusions but made them public when talking to a French fan who runs a website.

Lightnin, are you in any way affiliated to Taylor?

First of all, I don't know Taylor personally. We've chatted a couple of times about guitars, and that's it.

What I understand is that Taylor is a coke addict ever since '72. He has good years, he has really bad years. He had years he could buy property of his Stones royalties, he's had years he had to sell his guitars to pay the rent and his habit. There's some people around Taylor who absolutely deny everything -he was never a addict bla bla bla. These people keep rewriting Taylor's wikipedia entry, and once in a while thay pop up on boards like IORR.

I don't judge him, it's not my business. Fact is that Taylor never claimed any credit at all. Not in interviews, not in business. Of course, he played a part in some songs -Moonlight Mile etc - but apparently not enough for anybody to call out and say "it's unfair". He recieves monthly royalties from the Stones, enough for any of us to live a decent live. Some years it's enough, some years it isn't. I hope he finally defeats his demons.

Mathijs

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bumbum
.......Keith participation GHS, EOMS, IORR was not too much to talk about.

Keiths participation on Exile "was not too much to talk about" ? - You have got to be kidding me......

Lightnin, are you Prince Rupert?

Great stuff. Never could have guessed any of the depths of all this, but it confirms my speculation that it's only business.

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 02:05 by Amsterdamned.

I've talked to Taylor and people close to him.

#1) He's not rolling in $$ like the current Stones. Not even close..

And all these comments about how much he contributed to the composition of
certain songs... Keith wasn't even in the studio for a number of the ones
Taylor has talked about, he was told by Jagger: You will get songwriting
credit when the album comes out and.... Jagger/Richards

Taylor & Bill used to gripe to each other about this situation so it was there!

I'ver also heard it mentioned that Jagger has told Taylor: We need to take care
of this situation about back finances...

Taylor still considers them "friends" and want's to sit-in with the Stones
sometime in the future and knows if he sues them, that goes out the window.

MLC

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CharliesSinger

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bumbum
.......Keith participation GHS, EOMS, IORR was not too much to talk about.

Keiths participation on Exile "was not too much to talk about" ? - You have got to be kidding me......

I know that was provocation especially for Keith on EOMS, but it was done simply because of bashing Mick T.

In regards to playing, contribution and creativity Mick T certainly did his part as well (as he also did on the other records) - he has some very great playing on the CD - both solos, slide, rythm and bass:

[www.micktaylor.net]

To me he contributed much more to the Stones then Ronnie ever has done in his much longer period playing with the Stones.

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 02:05 by Amsterdamned.

and why should Marlies know?

-



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010-12-31 02:06 by Amsterdamned.

We've been through this a bunch of times and it never fails to amaze me. Writing songs isn't like writing a book. No one believes Mick Taylor walked in with a completed composition (words and music) and presented it to the band. He contributed during recording sessions. He added solos that changed the shape of songs and made them more memorable. If Mick and Keith were "good guys," would they have given him songwriting credit for his contributions then or now? Sure. Are Mick and Keith mean, greedy bastards so embittered by being ripped off by others that they will take advantage of whoever they can? Yeah, I imagine so. Do I honestly believe Mick Taylor sits around all day knowing he could walk in a solicitor's office and present legal documents that would make him millions? Of course not. Many musicians are not that businesss savvy, but they're also not conjugal idiots. If Taylor is bright enough to know these alleged documents exist and show proof to someone posting here, he would also be bright enough to do something about it. It may strike some as romantic to think Mr. Taylor's integrity is so great, he will wait for the Glimmers to do right by him even if it takes till the end of his life. I prefer to think that along with being an exceptionally talented guitarist, Mick Taylor possesses enough intelligence to function. This isn't Syd Barrett we're talking about. This is a bit like the people who believe Brian Jones picking the band's name from a Muddy Waters song gives his heirs intellectual property rights. The sad truth is, if Mick Taylor sued for songwriting royalties, the courts would say too much time has elapsed. He could have tried it in 1974, maybe even in 1981, but not in 2008. Was he taken advantage of? Yep. Does he really have any kind of claim? Of course not, unless someone can prove to me the guy is the Rainman of rock 'n' roll.