Nobody seems to know what they really have in their vaults from those magic years!

Fact is that a lot has been stolen, lost or ruined. Nobody really seemed to care about it in those times!

Still there must be some pearls. Funny that nobody knows where they are and who owns them at the moment.
Some has to be reworked - like G. Shelter negatives. Maysles told so but it would be expensive and no one is seemingly interested.

Altamont would be a killer!

From more recent times I would love to see the complete material from the 95 club shows! Many great songs and often even good playing!
Remember Gimme Shelter and Shine a light from Stripped/Paradiso. Awesome!
And listen to Black limo, Still a fool, Jump on top etc.
I'd love to see a well done compilation - like 22 songs - from those nice gigs!

There is footage of Mick and Keith at the Canadian border on June 3, 1972, being interviewed. Mick is obviously stoned out of his mind and quite jolly about it, too!

I wonder if we'll see any of the Maysles' Altamont outtake footage in Shine A Light?

Talking of rare Stones footage - There is a 30 min film knocking about from the 1976 tour. ITV in England I think commissioned the film when they played Earl's Court. There is film of Jagger turning up on the back of a motorbike and some concert footage and Keith having make up slapped on. Again, this has not yet come out on bootleg DVD to my knowledge.

MCDDTLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Relics - I wonder if it really was ABKCO who
> "slammed" the door or someone else
> not wanting a certain former Guitarist to be seen
> as he was laying down those
> "famous" leads in: Symp. for the Devil from NY -
> 1969 ?????
>
> It's so convenent to point the finger at A. Klein
> & ABKCO when "certain" videos
> aren't released but so many others are that ABKCO
> has rights to????
>
> Pretty "fishy" to me...
>
> MLC


Why not. I really dont believe in conspiracies but this is just marketing. With Brian dead Mick and Keith were launched as the twins. Nothing strange in that. Taylor was more like a session player. No focus on him and all lights on Keith and Mick. Keith emerged as the new prince of darkness.

Forum - But did Keith deserve that Prince of Darkness title and all the spotlight?? Jagger I can see as the frontman of the group. But alot of us
thought, at the time that Taylor was a big reason the Stones soared to the top,
after the Beatles broke up. And there was alot of compete against in the late 60's, early 70's. Stones blew everyone away "MUSICALLY" with the lineup they
rolled out in 1969. Taylor stated that when he first got in studio with the Stones he couldn't believe this collection has made so many "hits" they sounded
like a garage band, then the "session" musicians started arriving and Taylor
saw how they did it.. I think he was instrumental in getting the Stones into
the well-oiled machine they became as a live unit. Bill Wyman complained about
being ridden hard and error's being pointed out. Then when Ronnie arrived, it
was: "O what a great show we did tonite" and everyone was "happy" and it was a
good time feeling all around.

Sounds like they lost their "taskmaster" who "burned butts" when needed.

MLC

“My point about SFTD / 1969 is that they have that footage (video) and talked
about including it as a bonus track on the last release of: Gimme shelter, but
again, not included when other Jagger/Richards tunes were...???
(just giving people examples of keeping Taylor's best efforts under wraps)”

When did they talk about including Sympathy and what extra Jagger/Richards tunes were included as bonus stuff… Never heard of either, just Carol, LQ and other covers.


“This stuff about only 5 minutes worth of songs due to film reels length wasn't mentioned by Jagger when he talked about it almost made it in as: Bonus track

He stated that they wanted to include: SFTD from MSG/69 - but Klein & co nixed
it. I'm sure you are buying that story...”

Again when did Jagger ever talk about this??

“Why?? all of 1972,73 - SFTD from 1969 and all the other songs get released
with the exception of: Satisfaction, longest Taylor lead ever released from
his gig with the Stones.”

Satisfaction was on the GS…

MLC I like your efforts in promoting Taylor but I don’t know where you pull some these things from. By the way, Keith plays a mighty fine solo in Sympathy as well. So why would he want to not release something he also played great on.. Just because Taylor played great on it too. Doubt that’s the case..

Also I think Jagger got more of the spotlight than anyone, cameras were always on him.

Silver Dagger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Talking of rare Stones footage - There is a 30 min
> film knocking about from the 1976 tour. ITV in
> England I think commissioned the film when they
> played Earl's Court. There is film of Jagger
> turning up on the back of a motorbike and some
> concert footage and Keith having make up slapped
> on. Again, this has not yet come out on bootleg
> DVD to my knowledge.


This has shown up on youtube recently

JJ - Can't remember that exact interview I read that Jagger quote about: SFTD
and it's inclusion as a bonus track for the re-release of: Gimme Shelter

Maybe one of the others around here can remember, but Mick J. was talking about
the "added" tracks and mentioned a couple of others songs that were considered,
the one I was hoping for and got my attention was: SFTD

With those (2) classic leads - Keith's followed by Taylor's..
And I don't think it's Keith who's sitting on this classic video footage..

as I remember it, the ABKCO thing surfaced as a main reason for not including..

My comment about Satisfaction from GS is that it's the only Video offically released that has any kind of a "lengthly" Taylor solo.. all the others are
still held in the Stones faults...

MLC

Well MLC, all I'm saying is every week I read these theories you throw out there about the Stones being against Taylor and all that. And the quotes you use to back them up are things I have never heard about or read and stuff that nobody else seems to be able to find the original source of either. And I have read so many Stones books, articles and interviews. I have collected them all for years. So that is why I ask

JJ - I didn't make it up. Most of the time, others around here have read the
same articles. I don't keep everything I read for documentation. There was
a interview with Jagger around the time the latest version of: Gimme Shelter
was released. Those comments were in that interview..

MLC

"I don't keep everything I read for documentation."

That's the thing, I do when it comes to the Stones and a few times your comments made me dig up old articles I have collected of the Stones and I have never been able to track down any of these things.. And same with the great rockman, he usually comes through with just about anything people are looking for... I know an interview where Jagger talks about the remaster of GS as well as R&R Circus and found nothing about a Sympathy outtake. So when I read your statement and your theory here it made me dig through some stuff.

ABKCO (the corporation) owns the Perforamnce rights to Stones recordings up until 1971 as well as publishing rights to the songs they wrote during those years. This may be a legal subtlety, but Allen Klein does not own this personally, his corporation does. The same people have worked at ABKCO for decades and it is very much a family affair. Although these rights can be transferred through licensing, ABKCO charges a pretty penny. However, they do license, as witnessed by the inclusion of so many Stones songs in motion pictures through the years. I suppose ABKCO could also sell these rights, as they own them, but don't hold your breath for that...

Anyway, ABKCO did obtain video rights to GIMME SHELTER a years ago and issued it on tape as well as laser disc. (ABKCO never 'owned' the film or video rights to this movie) After a number of years, the film was not available on video, due to ABKCO's end of contract on video rights OR their failure to renew OR some other reason unknown.

ABKCO, I would imagine, wanted to own this film, just as they own or have acquired other Stones material over the years. This is the case with Jean Luc Godard's "Sympathy for the Devil". ABKCO did not commission or own this movie intially-they bought it-years after it was made and now can do with it as they wish. I imagine they wanted to do the same with GIMME SHELTER, but for some reason (either an error in licensing renewal, a refusal to pay the $$ wanted for the film ownership rights, or whatever) it didn't happen.

They DO control the publishing of the Jagger/Richards songs however, and must approve of their use in film/TV/video etc. This is called "synchronization rights" in the entertainment business. Thus, Chuck Berry songs (Little Queenie, Carol) do not require any approval from ABKCO, but SFTD and Midnight Rambler do.

Maysles said in an interview upon the release of the Criterion DVD that those songs were not included because of ABKCO and issues regarding 'ownership' of the film. My take on it is that ABKCO would allow the songs BUT wanted an option to purchase all right to GIMME SHELTER (something they were either unable to do or neglected to do a few years earlier when they had the home video rights).

As far as the reel length of 16mm film and the length of SFTD and MR, its sort of a non issue..."Satisfaction", as included in GIMME SHELTER, is patched together from 2 different performances. You can tell because Keith is wearing both red and blue shirts during the song. A similar editing job could be done with any other song they filmed-as long as they have uninterrupted audio tracks, they can put anything they want up on the screen. They did this in fact, throughout most of the film. The missing film footage in the 'bonus tracks" can be found inserted into the performances of JJF and other songs. GIMME SHELTER, besides beiong the best STONES concert film, is also an classic example of fine documentary film making AND exquisite, seamless editing.

Thanks for the input tnkbeercan..

MLC

Hats off to thkbeercan for informed response of the week.

MCDDTLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Forum - But did Keith deserve that Prince of
> Darkness title and all the spotlight?? Jagger I
> can see as the frontman of the group. But alot of
> us
> thought, at the time that Taylor was a big reason
> the Stones soared to the top,
> after the Beatles broke up. And there was alot of
> compete against in the late 60's, early 70's.
> Stones blew everyone away "MUSICALLY" with the
> lineup they
> rolled out in 1969. Taylor stated that when he
> first got in studio with the Stones he couldn't
> believe this collection has made so many "hits"
> they sounded
> like a garage band, then the "session" musicians
> started arriving and Taylor
> saw how they did it.. I think he was instrumental
> in getting the Stones into
> the well-oiled machine they became as a live unit.
> Bill Wyman complained about
> being ridden hard and error's being pointed out.
> Then when Ronnie arrived, it
> was: "O what a great show we did tonite" and
> everyone was "happy" and it was a
> good time feeling all around.
>
> Sounds like they lost their "taskmaster" who
> "burned butts" when needed.
>
> MLC

you're right but I believe this is how they do business. They produce music with a lot of help from others to say the least, and release it. If Taylor outshined Keith and Mick they wont show Taylor. Same with Jones and Wood and Wyman(and others like Cooder, Hopkins, Preston). The Stones are about the Glimmer Twins and in the 60s Brian Jones. They created a rock n roll myth and they did it well.

...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2007-09-07 19:11 by ROPENI.

There is additional stuff originating from the Maysles out there that no one has heard or seen in the form of their AUDIO recordings of some of the shows, because I know of one from Altamont (complete show - 1 microphone recorded on stage) that was stolen from its possessor in 1994 or so and has not turned up to my knowledge. It was the actual Maysles' stage reference tape(s).

The point is that there is tons of stuff out there - some of which is being sat upon, and some of which is sitting in rooms on shelves about which the possessor knows nothing other than "that's a bunch of old sh&t from 35 years ago."

I recall reading some years back (3-4 years ago) where the concept of releasing entire tours was being bantered around..... It is certainly not out of the question that the Stones possess board tapes from most all of the shows they have done. Jagger talked about listening to 73 Euro tapes when compiling Love You Live. Once Allen Klein (now 69 yo) buys the farm, likely his son will cut a deal and this stuff will be able to come out in a format of being released directly by the Stones. I have no "source" on this, only conjecture which leads me to believe that the historical aspect, as well as the potential for all parties to make more $$$, will eventually control.

By the way, does anyone have any idea what, if anything, might be out there of the largely unrepresented 71 UK tour? I hear about Newcastle and Liverpool, but sharp ears within IORR have debunked claims that these tracks are genuine. Surely, the over-boosted Coventry 71 must exist in a better-sounding format somewhere?

Relics - in all your "free time", could you give us a run-down on what live stuff you understand may exist which most ears have not heard from 68-73? I have heard rumors from a 3rd song at Pollwinners 68 (Route 66) to complete soundboards from the 73 Benefit gig (including the encore Rambler) and more......

Many thanks, and may the good lord shine a light on us all!

stonesstein

........no less than 10 days ago I posted links to CS Blues outakes found on you tube and those links on You tube were removed within a day. Obviously, someone doesn't want any of that stuff released.

It was absolutely ABKCO who slammed the door. Look at the songs and footage that surfaced. Little Queeniw & Carol...Both Chuck Berry songs...

Soulsurvivor

Quote
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........no less than 10 days ago I posted links to CS Blues outakes found on you tube and those links on You tube were removed within a day. Obviously, someone doesn't want any of that stuff released.

What did those outtakes contain? (Can you describe them?)