thanks smokey, i was looking for that quote.

<If Richards gets credit for Moonlight Mile which he admits having NOTHING to do with it>

That is not true. Keith wrote the riff at the ending, and even played on it. He didn't finish his takes on it though, and Taylor re-recorded it.

lettingitbleed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Keith had little or nothing to do with lots of
> credited songs such as:

MMMMM, that sounds too big baloney to me!


> Sway

Sway is a 100% Keith rip off by jagger. Open G tuning, the sus chords, everything. But, true, no keith there.

> Bitch

As noted abobe, keith "made" the song

> Moonlight Mile

Final riff, they say

> Heartbreaker

The bass is a gas!

> Hide Your Love

Odd blues jam anyway

> It's Only Rock n' Roll (album version at least)

Keith Richards should be introduced in the hall of fame for this only! His guitar parts are absolutely fantastic! And the solo? One of the best Chuck Berry solos!

> Time Waits For No One

OK no keith

> Till The Next Goodbye

Keith (an me) asleep

> Short & Curlies

Should check the credits, but I hear a damn loud keith guitar there!

> Fingerprint File

Again, Keith is the "soul" of FF!

> Ney Negrita

Great Ronnie's riff on a good Keith track

> Melody

Keith's masterful interplay with a piano (Preston). If you practice enough and you are a stones addict, you may "weave" with another guitarits. To weave with a piano is all a different business. SUPERB

> Fool To Cry

?

> When The Whip Comes Down

K+M+R 33% each. Leave one out and no Whip

> Dance

Dance is 100% Keith. Fullstop.

> Emotional Rescue

?

> ...and many more.

?

C

Stone_relics:

>Oh so what..Keith wrote Gimme Shelter, lock, stock and barrell...its only rock'n'roll...<

So what? There you get one guy who gets FREE credit... Not the other way around!

so keith wrote a three note riff on sway and moonlight he should never of got
credit it was taylor's presence who helped jagger get those songs done and thats
what counts.

you all make it sound like keith invented the rhythm guitar and open tunings I
can come up with a riff and a chord progression in a heart beat.

keith's famous seductive intro on gimme shelter the opening splash of notes - well he got the idea from Under My Thumb another example of keith using his body of writing to start a new idea and song.

if you want evidence of taylor's presence on moonlight and sway and all the others all one has to do is get the studio control logs they will document who was in the studio and who played on what songs that would be good evidence in a court of law.

<and moonlight he should never of got
credit>

See above. Also confirmed by Taylor in interviews. But Taylor definately deserved credits on MM IMO.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-12 15:11 by DandelionPowderman.

Personally, I agree Mick Taylor deserved co-writing credits on a number of songs on "Sticky Fingers," "Goats Head Soup," and "Its Only Rock 'n' Roll." However, I'm sure Mick Jagger rewrote some or nearly all of the lyrics to songs like Gimme Shelter and Love is Strong. Calling them "Keith songs" just means it started with a Keith demo and did not significantly deviate musically. Likewise, Keith despite all of his bitching and moaning about Emotional Rescue definitely added the funky reggae guitar riffs and backing harmonies towards the end of the song. Ron Wood doubtless deserved co-writing credits on more songs (i.e. Emotional Rescue, Undercover of the Night, etc.) but like Mr. Taylor found his contributions recognized as a right to being in the band, but not worthy of a credit unless the song originated with them. Using this criteria, Ventilator Blues may be the only legitimate Mick Taylor credit. You cannot judge by what these guys say. In "According to The Rolling Stones," Ronnie moans that he didn't fight hard enough to get a writing credit on Black Limousine. You'd think the guy would know which songs earn him songwriting royalties. Finally, the arrangement over a Jagger-Richards credit was dissolved at the time of "She's the Boss." Keith told Musician that he didn't want his name on Mick's songs. Apparently in reference to how Lonely at the Top turned out. Since that time, the Jagger-Richards credit only appears on actual Stones releases. Mick using "Steel Wheels" outtakes like Sweet Thing and Hang On To Me Tonight for "Wandering Spirit" did not result in a Jagger-Richards credit. Likewise Keith borrowing ideas that didn't make the released version of Slave for Will But You Won't on "Main Offender" did not result in the Jagger-Richards credit. I don't believe for a second that Mick Taylor, while definitely short-changed for his contributions, wrote 100% of Sway, Can't You Hear Me Knocking, Moonlight Mile, Winter, Time Waits for No One, etc.

<Likewise Keith borrowing ideas that didn't make the released version of Slave for Will But You Won't on "Main Offender" did not result in the Jagger-Richards credit.>

What ideas? Hard to hear IMO...

Then he borrowed ideas he had for Will But You Won't for Running Too Deep, and best of all; placed the songs after the other on Main Offender!

The repetition of the lyrics "Will But You Won't, Do But You Don't" can be heard in the longer outtakes of "Slave" that circulate. As far as the opening riff to Will But You Won't and Running Too Deep being virtually identical, he did the same thing on "Between the Buttons" with Complicated and My Obsession. Hate It When You Leave also sounds very close to the "Some Girls" outtake, A Different Kind. Keith is the first to acknowledge his love of reworking songs from his (and others') back catalog. My point was the Jagger-Richards arrangement no longer extends to songs performed outside the band like it used to in the 60s, 70s, and early 80s. As far as the point of this thread, if Jagger and Richards shared songwriting credits with their bandmates and associates whenever a contribution was made, the band would not have survived. The Jagger-Richards stranglehold keeps the egos relatively in check. Despite their flashes of brilliance no former Stone or former sideman has ever equalled their brilliance once outside the band's sphere. Greedy bastards they may be, but Jagger and Richards know how to pull the best from those around them and make it come out even better.

Rocky,

I for one and not saying Taylor 100% wrote those songs, not too many people
are saying that either. what we're saying and what Taylor's is saying is that
he "HELPED" put those songs together!!! and thus should have gotten included
on the writting credits. Yes Jagger/Richards have a agreement that "anything"
Rolling Stones has to state: Jagger/Richards - but those two should have
included Taylor on a number of songs!!! he was told it would happen, it didn't!! what was he suppose to do, kick them in the nuts!
He was a gentelman, took them at their "WORD" and look what happened, and to
Ronnie too for that matter!!

I couldn't live with myself if I had the amount of money the Glimmers have,
knowing the truth of how much people like Taylor & Wyman contributed to them
being able to make that kind of cash and knowing Taylor & Wyman are hurting financially and doing nothing, when at the very least they could help them out a little! A couple of million each would turn Taylor's & Wyman's world around
and the Glimmers wouldn't even miss it!!!

Pisses me off every time I think about it!!

MLC

x



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2006-12-06 06:21 by Beelyboy.

"knowing Taylor & Wyman are hurting financially and doing nothing, when at the very least they could help them out a little! A couple of million each would turn Taylor's & Wyman's world around
and the Glimmers wouldn't even miss it!!!"


Wait a minute, it was there choices to leave the band, and in both cases Mick and Keith did not want either to go. Its their own fault if they are hurting financially and if either were able to write good music on their own than I don't think anyone would doubt their song writing abilities.

I think if Taylor maybe said something rather than just say he quits before a tour started than it would have been a little smarter. Everything is just speculation about who wrote what, no need to take is so seriously, just enjoy the music.

Yeah JJ,

just keep pimping the Stones and keeping your head in the sand.

Sorry but I will keep "pushing on" Jagger/Richards buttons until they do the
right thing in regards to Taylor!!!

It was his choice to quit... what in the hell would you do if you were in a
similiar situation, contributing to a major money-maker, getting crumbs compared
to "others" being told you would get a piece of the pie and NOT...

Would you have the "Balls" to standup for your principles and do what Taylor did? I don't think so, you would just "take-it" and smile huh?? I wonder...

MLC

MCDDTLC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry but I will keep "pushing on" Jagger/Richards
> buttons until they do the
> right thing in regards to Taylor!!!
>
> It was his choice to quit... what in the hell
> would you do if you were in a
> similiar situation, contributing to a major
> money-maker, getting crumbs compared
> to "others" being told you would get a piece of
> the pie and NOT...
>
> Would you have the "Balls" to standup for your
> principles and do what Taylor did? I don't think
> so, you would just "take-it" and smile huh?? I
> wonder...
>
> MLC


What would I do... ahh maybe say something instead of just quiting if that was even the definite reason why he quit. Would I have the balls to do what Taylor did??? You mean would I have the balls to do what he didn't do and say something about if he thinks he deserves credit... yes I would have said something. Quiting the band is not going to get him any credits or help him financially down the road.

Sorry I love Taylor as much as anyone but I don't think you pushing bottons on sites like this is going to help him in anyway.

i always wondered how the songs really where created....music first .....lyrics second?? anyone can add in or what??....like T Dice was somthing like ...lucky woman" or somthing?? and apperantly they where working out Loving cup for several years...would have loved to be a fly on the wall...

JJ - What you don't think he said something???

He brought up the subject many times, and was told:

Oh you'll get writing credits when the album comes out. And trust me it was a
MAJOR reason he quit, that and the fact that he thought Keith couldn't last much
longer in his lifestyle ( drug intake) wrong assumption but he didn't think the
Stones could continue without Keith, He LOVED playing with Jack Bruce, his ex-wife was telling him to move on and he pulled the trigger.

Supposedly it's been said the Jagger/Richards have told him, over the years
that they would "Take care of this situation" Taylor's still waiting...

And pushing buttons on sites, dropping comments on Stones roadies & drug providers might someday yield results, I have nothing to lose..
Jagger & Richards need to hear about this subject alot and believe me they do,
their croanies follow these Webpages and report back on what's being said - trust me!!

MLC

The real question is why doesn't anyone sue them? I can't think its because they don't want to injure their friendships with Jagger and Richards as suggested above. There's an old saying that success has many fathers and failure is an orphan. Sure the honorable thing to do would have been to recognize contributions at the time (as they have done sporadically throughout their career), but if Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Bill Wyman, and the estates of Brian Jones and Gram Parsons could prove that they truly wrote songs for the Stones, don't you think someone in this stellar group would have done so by now? Again, I have no argument with those who think some or all of the above deserved co-writing credits based on contributions to the recordings. I'm just challenging statements like Mick Taylor wrote "Time Waits For No One" and large chunks of Sticky Fingers and Goats Head Soup. If you wrote a song and saw your bandmates take all the credit and royalties from it, wouldn't you talk to your solicitor? I suspect the individuals in question grouse about unrecognized contributions (a valid point) and their fans subsequently elevate these statements into claims of sole authorship. There is definitely an appeal to be elitist and able to recognize genius where others can't. It validates fandom in the first place and proves your superiority in the second. The proof is in the fruits of the work. Where has Mr. Taylor (despite his extraordinary skill on guitar) shown he could write a great or even good song? Where has Bill Wyman ever shown his remarkable ability to create another great riff like "Jumpin' Jack Flash?" I know they both have fans of their solo work which is wonderful for those who enjoy it, but what songs point to the same level of accomplishment that their most vocal fans profess for them? Unless anyone can prove otherwise, I can only conclude these individuals made contributions to The Rolling Stones that Jagger and Richards happily accepted, chose not to reward as the songs in question did not originate with the individual, and moved on. No legal ground for retribution exists, just sour grapes over money and recognition...the same reason so many bands split and doubtless a contributor to why the individuals are no longer in the band or ceased associating with them.

so when does chuck berry get his rolling stones writing credits?

The Rolling Stones are Mick and Keith! Of course they credit the song for themselves, and all the same if it was Mick alone or Keith alone or together or with someone else.
Mick Taylor is a very good guitar player, but he is not a writer. His solo efforts prove that.

great post rocky dijon. surely they made great contributions, which perhaps they desrve more credit for, but that doesn't warrant songwriting credit that so many people clamor about. (but maybe time waits for no one, i mean the only enjoyable part of that song is taylor's extended guitar work?)

Rocky Dijon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real question is why doesn't anyone sue them?
> I can't think its because they don't want to
> injure their friendships with Jagger and Richards
> as suggested above. There's an old saying that
> success has many fathers and failure is an orphan.
> Sure the honorable thing to do would have been to
> recognize contributions at the time (as they have
> done sporadically throughout their career), but if
> Ry Cooder, Mick Taylor, Bill Wyman, and the
> estates of Brian Jones and Gram Parsons could
> prove that they truly wrote songs for the Stones,
> don't you think someone in this stellar group
> would have done so by now? Again, I have no
> argument with those who think some or all of the
> above deserved co-writing credits based on
> contributions to the recordings. I'm just
> challenging statements like Mick Taylor wrote
> "Time Waits For No One" and large chunks of Sticky
> Fingers and Goats Head Soup. If you wrote a song
> and saw your bandmates take all the credit and
> royalties from it, wouldn't you talk to your
> solicitor? I suspect the individuals in question
> grouse about unrecognized contributions (a valid
> point) and their fans subsequently elevate these
> statements into claims of sole authorship. There
> is definitely an appeal to be elitist and able to
> recognize genius where others can't. It validates
> fandom in the first place and proves your
> superiority in the second. The proof is in the
> fruits of the work. Where has Mr. Taylor (despite
> his extraordinary skill on guitar) shown he could
> write a great or even good song? Where has Bill
> Wyman ever shown his remarkable ability to create
> another great riff like "Jumpin' Jack Flash?" I
> know they both have fans of their solo work which
> is wonderful for those who enjoy it, but what
> songs point to the same level of accomplishment
> that their most vocal fans profess for them?
> Unless anyone can prove otherwise, I can only
> conclude these individuals made contributions to
> The Rolling Stones that Jagger and Richards
> happily accepted, chose not to reward as the songs
> in question did not originate with the individual,
> and moved on. No legal ground for retribution
> exists, just sour grapes over money and
> recognition...the same reason so many bands split
> and doubtless a contributor to why the individuals
> are no longer in the band or ceased associating
> with them.


Whole heartedly agree with this post.If Taylor was capable of writing the songs mentioned here,then why did he not do so after 1974?To even suggest that he deserves credit for those songs is the silliest thing I've ever heard. The Stones are more than just The Glimmer Twins,but they are 80% of the band,at least.

How many times since the start of the band do you think Charlie has come up with a drum pattern that deviated from the original idea?Probably too many to count.Does he deserve credit? NO.

Pleased to meet you......

jagger even admitted in an interview taylor should of gotton credit for moonlight mile and was going to make everything right but taylor left the band
before that happened.
jagger and taylor collaborated on songs in the studio when keith was MIA and for that reason and for the fact that taylor helped jagger get the songs done(he needed that 2nd guitar) should of got credit.when did the stones ever
sound musically like moonlight mile or winter these songs are magical and taylor
put his stamp on those songs collaborating with jagger.

GHS was more of a taylor/jagger collaboration then a keith/jagger collaboration
same with IORR in many ways.

Truth is boring...

After all, when you ask Richards or Jagger who write this or that,
they had no complexe to say: "oh, this song, it's not me, it' pure Jagger"
The stones are free with that, I think.
Jagger/Richards under every songs, it's just an artistic approach, and Iknow it' little bit naive to say that, but...everybody who plays with, IS a stone! What you want more?!?

"Everything turning to gold" is Ronnie too.
Jagger gave Ronnie "Can't feel the fire" in exchange Ronnie gave him "It's only RnR"
(Precision: guitars on song IORR on IORR LP are Richards...? Am I wrong?)

RockNRoll is dreams, not truth!

Agree completely Rocky, great post..

"GHS was more of a taylor/jagger collaboration then a keith/jagger collaboration
same with IORR in many ways."

Open G you are living in a Taylor dream world. He is one of my favorite guitarists as well but I can't take it that far..

not a dream world,listen to a song like 100 years ago - taylor helps jagger explore his lyricaland musical horizons when has jagger sang like that.
jagger stated many times taylor has helped him with melody so this is not some
bullshit i am typing to all here who visit the forum.

hide your love is a taylor/jagger jam,winter is a taylor/jagger collaboration,
100 years ago same thing .

taylor/jagger collaborations happened in the studio

Wasn't 100 Years Ago written in the 60s before Taylor joined. I could be wrong. OpenG, love your enthusiasm about Taylor, not trying to diss you or anything. My girlfriend think I am nuts for the way I talk about his guitar playing as well. I wish he'd do some gigs in the US soon.

Thanks OpenG for keeping at it when the people try to minimize Taylor's
contributions when he was in the Stones. Everyone's tryinf to say:
Well he only played guitar and why hasn't he written any songs after he left
the Stones that are as good as the Stones songs from, Sticky Fingers, Goats
Head, etc...

For one thing, it was the "combination" of Taylor & Jagger that worked so well
on songs like: Sway, Winter, Hide your Love, TWFNO, etc.

Taylor HAS written some pretty decent stuff over the years, difference being
that it didn't "SELL" like the Stones music, does that make it less quality??
Not in my opinion.

From his 1st release, Alabama, SW5, Giddy Up, Slow Blues - top notch music!

the song: Stranger in this town,

From A Stones Throw, Secret Affair, Never fall in love again - I could keep going but I think I made my point.

Don't minimize this guy's contributions, Jagger & Richards and the rest of the Stones didn't and haven't...

MLC

Okay, you win. I accept the following as truth:
Otis Redding wrote Satisfaction.
Brian Jones wrote all the mid-60s hits apart from the ones Bill Wyman wrote. Bill wrote Jumpin' Jack Flash.
Brian, Ry Cooder, and Mick Taylor all wrote Honky Tonk Women seperately. This is contradictory, but the one point we can all agree on is Mick and Keith didn't write it.
Mick Taylor wrote nearly every song recorded from 1970 to 1974 apart from all the songs Gram Parsons wrote. Mick Taylor, Gram Parsons, and Dr. John each wrote all of Exile.
Ronnie Wood wrote nearly everything from 1975 through 1986.
Of course, Bill Wyman wrote filler like Melody, Heaven, and Too Much Blood. Billy Preston wrote Melody and Miss You.
Mistakenly believing that Mick Taylor didn't have great songs left in him after Time Waits For No One, Jagger and Richards paid to have him kill his own career.
They also paid Wyman to write and record songs like Apache Woman and I Wanna Get Me a Gun just to keep everyone off the path.
Oh, and before I forget Jagger's bald and wears a wig and paid to have Brian killed while Keith has had a roadie playing guitar for him behind the curtain for the past 30 years and paid to have Peter Tosh killed.
Anyone interested in fronting an investigation to prove that Chuck Leavell paid to have Stu, Jack Nitzsche, Nicky Hopkins, and Billy Preston killed?
What about the fact that Matt Clifford wrote everything on Steel Wheels, the four new Licks, and A Bigger Bang (apart from all the songs Dave Stewart wrote)?
Anybody suspect Steve Jordan actually wrote all of Keith's solo songs?
I believe Pierre DeBeauport has actually written and played every guitar lick for the Stones in the studio and live for the past 20 years and I can prove it because we all know its true.
There's bound to be some we missed.
Which songs did Alan Rogan write?
Which songs did Chuch write?
Surely the Dunn brothers must have written an album's worth of songs for the band over the years.
I won't rest until proper credit is given and those brilliant, but evil Glimmer Twins are exposed for the frauds we know they are.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-13 18:11 by Rocky Dijon.

Ha Ha Rocky,

Yes and Taylor had NOTHING to do with the Stones becoming the #1 R&R band
after he joined and the Beatles broke up. bla bla bla

Don't know if you were around in 1969 when Taylor joined, - I was
I went and saw them in 1969,72 & 73. Was very involved in music during the 60's
British bands mostly. I'm telling you the "buzz" on the street was the Stones
and their "new" guitarist. It was Jagger,Taylor then Keith everyone was talking
about in that order!!!

Am I saying he wrote ALL the music, NO
Am I saying he had a big hand in cementing them as #1 = YES!!!

Now you can go back to all the joking you want, I don't think it's a joking
matter, Taylor should be up there with the Jeff Beck's, Mark Knopfler's, Jimmy
Pages,etc. All it would take is a little help from his former bandmates and he
could be playing at arenas instead of little bars!!

MLC

Yes, I was joking and yes, I agree Taylor was an integral part of why those years are their golden years. I also don't dispute that he deserved co-writing credits on many of those songs. I was just pointing out that among the many musicians (or their fans) who feel they were ripped off by the Glimmers, no one has ever done anything about it. When Jagger was sued by Patrick Alley, an obscure reggae artist for stealing his 1979 recording, Just Another Night, Jagger produced proof in the form of demos that he developed his song over a period of months and that it wasn't stolen. Likewise, one or the many disgruntled musicians should have been able to produce proof a composition was theirs. What they could not easily do, and my contention is that this is the case in fact, is prove undisputably their contribution was worthy of a credit. Co-writing credit is more a matter of honor if there is no agreement up-front. If Jagger indeed told Taylor the lack of credit was an oversight he would correct, he could only mean two things. The first was that for the next album, he wouldn't screw him out of royalties again. The second would be a one-time only lump-sum payment that, over the decades, would surely not match what a successful's song's earning potential could bring the writers. What many here have suggested is that there should be a press release stating that back royalties have been paid to the artist and future pressings of the CD will read Jagger/Richards/Taylor (or, in extreme cases that I do not accept as plausible, replace Jagger/Richards with Taylor only or Jagger/Taylor). While the last option may seem fair and just, it is not feasible. I love Taylor's playing with the Stones. I don't give him total credit for the golden years because two of the four classic albums, he had little or no input (Beggars and Let It Bleed). My sarcastic post was largely pointed at claims such as Brian/Ry Cooder/Mick Taylor wrote the classic Honky Tonk Women riff. It may be that one of them did, but it can't be all of them. In the instance of Dr. John's autobiography, he claims he wrote "C*cksucker Blues" during the Exile sessions among other songs, but that song was written and recorded in 1970 and among the songs assigned to ABKCO as publisher in October 1970 when their contract expired. This predates the Exile sessions by nearly a year and over a year before Dr. John was brought in to help with the album at Sunset Sound in December 1971. Again, did all of the above contribute significantly to shaping songs? Yes, I believe they did. Would it have been the right thing to share credit on songs? Yes, it would, but then they wouldn't be the Bad Boys of Rock 'n' Roll. Bad behavior is more than just illegal drugs and groupies and saying bad words to upset people. The other side of the reputation is selfishness and greed. The very things the Glimmers are taken to task for on this and other boards regularly over incidents like this or for ticket prices, etc. We love them for being the Stones but still get upset when they act like the Stones. Had Taylor stuck it out, he might have had more than one co-writing credit, but he would never have broken the Jagger/Richards stranglehold. One-third of the credit was all he could get no matter how hard he worked at it. Wyman got a solo writing credit through once (twice if you count Metamorphosis which doesn't apply) but it would certainly never happen again. If it had, we surely wouldn't be seeing the Stones today. That's the trade-off involved. Understanding that is what helped Ron Wood fare better than Mr. Taylor and last decades longer. No, I don't believe we will see another Jagger/Richards/Wood credit if there are further Stones sessions. All part of the price. We know what they are and why they are good at what they do. Expecting a Dickensian turn of heart is just pointless.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2006-10-13 23:29 by Rocky Dijon.