Mathijs Wrote:
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> They call Jagger a "shrewed bussines man", one
> whom supposedly turned the Stones into a
> multinational earning millions. But he clearly
> misses even th most simple ways of making money.
> Aside from the fact that it won't cost them any
> sweat to search through the material: it sells
> shiploads! The Beatles Anthology series, Dylan's
> Bootleg series, Springsteen's boxsets, The Who's
> Deluxe serie, Led Zep's How the West, and even
> compilations by Pearl Jam, Black Crowes, Stevie
> Ray Vaugh and what more: it all sells enourmesly,
> most of the times even outselling new matarial by
> these groups.
>
> Just order Chris Kimsey to search through the '77
> tapes, and withing a week he will come up with a
> 4CD set of all these great outtakes. Let Bill
> Wyman write the liner notes, and just release it.
> It will sell enourmesly.
>
> Mathijs


Jagger was smart enough to listen to the brilliant advise he got from Rupert Lowenstein..the architect for the Stones multi million (some say billion) dollar success story.....and surely if it wasn't for this success they wouldn't be around today...so be fair.

trainarollin Wrote:
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> Give it time. Took Neil Young a long time to
> finally get archival stuff out there and it's
> coming out this month.

Neil is the perfect example of why they DON'T want to do this. He's been torturing himself for something like 15 years with his mammoth-sized box set. Like the Stones, he's simply got TOO MUCH stuff to sort out. It's got to be a monumental chore just to separate the releaseable stuff from the crap, and then another epic undertaking to decide which of the good stuff isn't quite good enough to make the final cut. They just can't face it. Easier to keep touring and occasionally make a new record.

I wonder why Neil Young starts his archive project now when at the same time his official catalog still leaves a lot to be desired...proper remasters (most of his stuff out there is still the old digital transfer from the very first CD releases, quite like the the Beatles albums), and albums like Times Fades Away still notably absent on CD...

Anyway, artists like Dylan show how it can be done when there is a wealth of material in the vaults - don't try to deal with every time period at the same time, but concentrate on a certain period or a certain topic with each release. When the Stones decide they come up with an BBC album, they don't have to deal with fourty years of outtakes and live recordings, they can deal with a given number of BBC tracks. When they decide to release an albums with outtakes from the Brian Jones era they can deal with a given number of outtakes from that time frame (I would not want to listen to an album where Honey What's Wrong is followed by Drift Away anyway). All they need is to sit together and think about a certain structure of their archive exploitation project. Once the structure is there, just start! Dylan does not overflood the market with dozens of archive releases every year, it is more like one release every couple of years, but he actually started sometimes back and by now there is pretty much stuff available.

There is absolutely no point in making these releases before they are done as a group. I agree that they should come out, but wait for it by all means. Some will now throw the Dylan argument at me, which is understandable, but I think it was a wrong decision to release his Bootleg Series. If a band wants to have the image that it's still recording, and if they want to be known for that, they should just wait. The Beatles waited and made the great Beatles Anthology. When Dylan released Bootleg Series I got the impression that 1): He didn't have new material that was good enough and 2): The older stuff is way better. The Rolling Stones shouldn't release anything yet. To me it seems as if the fans really want it, but they shouldn't bow and give their fans what they want if they're still doing their stuff.

JumpingKentFlash

I just used Dylan as an example, Kent! And your impression - 1): He didn't have new material that was good enough and 2): The older stuff is way better - is probably also in Jaggers mind. He might not want his current band compared to the band of many decades ago. OK, the old albums are still out there, even old live albums like YaYas, but releasing live albums from 1972 or 1973, even 1978 would inevitably lead to comparisons in the media. So it is a bit tricky to release a 1972 show now and a live album from ABB half a year later. On the other hand, the Stones are not really that active anymore as a recording band - they don't release a couple of singles and a new album every year like they used to back then. I guess, in the end it is not simply one reason why they do not touch the archives now, it is a lot of things that come together: lack of time, lack of passion, pride and most probably the desire to hold something back for the time when the Stones don't exist anymore.

retired_dog Wrote:
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> I just used Dylan as an example, Kent! And your
> impression - 1): He didn't have new material that
> was good enough and 2): The older stuff is way
> better - is probably also in Jaggers mind. He
> might not want his current band compared to the
> band of many decades ago. OK, the old albums are
> still out there, even old live albums like YaYas,
> but releasing live albums from 1972 or 1973, even
> 1978 would inevitably lead to comparisons in the
> media. So it is a bit tricky to release a 1972
> show now and a live album from ABB half a year
> later. On the other hand, the Stones are not
> really that active anymore as a recording band -
> they don't release a couple of singles and a new
> album every year like they used to back then. I
> guess, in the end it is not simply one reason why
> they do not touch the archives now, it is a lot of
> things that come together: lack of time, lack of
> passion, pride and most probably the desire to
> hold something back for the time when the Stones
> don't exist anymore.


It's true that they aren't as active. But nobody really remembers that. I think The Stones is a band that pops up now and again to the media. Nobody remembers how long it's been since the last new material. People don't care unless they're hardocre fans like you and me.

JumpingKentFlash

JKF, since '89 the Stones only released 4 new CD's in 16 yrs. Not counting those useless live CD's, compilations,etc. I would call that a pretty lazy band when it comes to recording. Pretty much done muscically also. How many times you play SW, VL, BTB or ABB? how often you listen to boots from that period?
They deliver still very good live shows for most people (although I am bored with them - think they are musically also mediocre) but I am much more interested in opening the vaults than waiting for another new album within 3/4? years.

JumpingKentFlash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is absolutely no point in making these
> releases before they are done as a group. I agree
> that they should come out, but wait for it by all
> means. Some will now throw the Dylan argument at
> me, which is understandable, but I think it was a
> wrong decision to release his Bootleg Series.

Good luck in finding anyone who's actually a Dylan fan who'll agree with you!

I agree with Kent.

And I understand Jagger.

My girlfriend is a painter. For one painting that she thinks is well done and worthly to expose there are at least 10 almost finished "drafts" that she does not consider "finished". The result is that my home (the "vault") is now full of sketches, drafts, half finished paintings, that she refuses to sell or give away because as they are because she "feels it is not correct, they ar enot finished". Problem is that they never will!!!

The stones have always been quite tolerant with bootlegs, and as a matter of fact there is a huge mass of unreleased stuff already circulating. For free.

What else can there be in these vaults that we have not heard already?


C

liddas Wrote:
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> The stones have always been quite tolerant with
> bootlegs, and as a matter of fact there is a huge
> mass of unreleased stuff already circulating. For
> free.
>
> What else can there be in these vaults that we
> have not heard already?
>
>

aside from the argument that whats in the vaults may not be finished or release-worthy, you dont seriously believe that in a recording career of 44 years whats available on bootleg represents more than a tiny fraction of what theyve actually recorded?

what youve heard merely is a representation of what material has been stolen

my thoughts on this archiving thing for what's it's worth....the Stones only have to trust someone close to them to sort through all their existing tapes & catalog them...like the Dead & several other bands have done...I'm sure that there are several people in their camp that would love to spend the next 10 years working on this project...wonder what Bill German is up to these days ?...I don't think it is a matter of making $$ off all the work that needs to be done to start a series of limited edition box sets from the vault...in this day of global technology, the stuff we have all been waiting for could be offered as soon as archivist/fan/brother has been chosen & given the job....the band members aren't interested in sorting thru the library but probably would not mind if someone else did.....it's time to put someone in charge of the vault & get things rolling...but only 2 people can make the first step happen...and I hope it is sooner than later....Peter in SF

DrPete Wrote:
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> Damn, if mick could pay me 90,000$ a year plus
> insurance, I'LL DO IT!!!


Hey Pete; What 's up. Mickschick and I are going to Atlantic City in a few weeks. I hope all is well.
Ron and Colleen

I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who haven't heard every rarity/unreleased song they've done, I know I haven't.

I would love them to release something from the vaults. There is always going to be an audience for the Stones music, be it older fans or kids just getting into them.

Gazza Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> liddas Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------

> aside from the argument that whats in the vaults
> may not be finished or release-worthy, you dont
> seriously believe that in a recording career of 44
> years whats available on bootleg represents more
> than a tiny fraction of what theyve actually
> recorded?
>

Well, yes, I do believe that the vaults are a sort of myth. I mean, when tattoo was made, they did open the vaults hunting for gems, and what came out was already available (or at least is now).

OK, maybe we don't have Jagger singing O sole mio under the shower, but I don't know if I would want to hear that!

C

Don't forget they don't own the Decca years or the BBC recordings.

Metamorphosis was a clearing out album as was Tattoo You.

Maybe they dislike the idea of dealing with Mick Taylor and Wyman to get clearances and don't want to put money in their pockets.

In which case, its good to see that they're consistent when it comes to their priorities..lol

The GR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't forget they don't own the Decca years or the
> BBC recordings.
>
> Metamorphosis was a clearing out album as was
> Tattoo You.

And Metamorphosis suffers a bit from ABKCO's desire to include as much Jagger-Richards compositions as possible, unlike Bill Wyman's Black Box compilation which did not make the grade.

retire dog and others talk a lot of kind of a bullshit here, making up problems which are not existant. if the Stones really want to release archives or part of it then they can do, its as easy as that!!! the fact they dont do it shows simply that they dont want it, at least that they dont want to do it now at this time. everything else is pure speculation by people who claim to be experts but know nothing in reality whats really the case in Stones camp. I dont speculate, I simply see whats happeneing or better whats not happening.

tatters Wrote:
>
> Neil is the perfect example of why they DON'T want
> to do this. He's been torturing himself for
> something like 15 years with his mammoth-sized box
> set. Like the Stones, he's simply got TOO MUCH
> stuff to sort out. It's got to be a monumental
> chore just to separate the releaseable stuff from
> the crap, and then another epic undertaking to
> decide which of the good stuff isn't quite good
> enough to make the final cut. They just can't face
> it. Easier to keep touring and occasionally make a
> new record.



hah!

Its obviously not too much of a chore that he's still found enough time to not only assemble such a project but to "occasionally make a new record" several times in the last few years.

In the last 25 years, hes put out twenty albums of new studio material (not counting the CSNY stuff). The Stones (who have two and sometimes three songwriters in their line up) have cranked out a paltry SIX studio albums in that time, with not even an 'archives' project anywhere near the horizon.

I think Neil's fans will be a lot more satisfied with his output as well as whats about to come out than Stones fans are.

melillo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> thats true for studio stuff, but he can easily
> release live material if he really wanted to

That's true. There must be tons of stuff in the vaults.
Thing is, though, they have always thought their live material to not be "perfect", that's why all official live albums (except maybe No Security) were heavily overdubbed and doctored on.
We fans like the real rough stuff (with little mistakes here and there), the raw performances, but Jagger's always striving for the "professional", clean thing...
That's the drama in this case....

Totally agree with donnywas. This is the main problem + the fact that Jagger wants to 'move on' . Sometimes with good (WS) sometimes with disasterous result (STB and the Dogshit album).
So who is gonna tell Jagger what the real fans want?
When will that '78 DVD be released?

The valuts releases from Zeppelin, Dylan and Beatles have got a lot of media attention, and from what I know they've all been selling good as well. The Stones have a live catalouge in their valuts that must be the most bootleged and myth spanding ever. I think the band, at least Jagger and Richard, must have some sort of idea on how to deal with this matter. Who knows, maybe they've been working on it for years?

I'm just disappointed in the complete disinterest the band has in its' recorded legacy as someone has already touched on.

Four shows from 71 for example were professionally recorded (Leeds,Liverpool,Brighton,London I think).....what a great boxset those shows would make.

If they still exist of course.

Disco Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm just disappointed in the complete disinterest
> the band has in its' recorded legacy as someone
> has already touched on.
>
> Four shows from 71 for example were professionally
> recorded (Leeds,Liverpool,Brighton,London I
> think).....what a great boxset those shows would
> make.
>
> If they still exist of course.


Totally agree, and think of the shows from '72, winter '73, europe '73, El Mocambo '77 and of course all the ones from '78! And after that there's probably some filmed ones as well. They certainly have enough to share.

Can the rolling stones also seed paradiso 1995?

Agreed, definitely. I can understand many different artistic and financial views on opening the vaults, and different strategies on how it could be done, considering the artists', the fans' and the casual buyers' different perspectives. But ultimately, there's so much AMAZING stuff in there waiting to be released, that it will all simply continue to feel like a disappointment among us hardcore fans as long as they remain there. I am pretty sure, however, that they WILL be released at some time. They won't stay there 'til they rot, even if it takes another 30 years. I'm still only 25, I can wait. On the other hand, it would be a pity if so much time has to pass that no Stone will be alive to even comment on any releases.

They need to hurry up. The bulk of the market that would be interested in pre-1989 live performances/outtakes/rarities -- e.g., baby-boomers in the U.S. (i don't know if there was a post WWII birth surge in Europe) is going to be dying out in the next 2o years.

The Beatles could wait 25 years to put out "Anthology I" and tap this market. I'm not of the opinion the stones can wait that long.

martingo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They need to hurry up. The bulk of the market
> that would be interested in pre-1989 live
> performances/outtakes/rarities -- e.g.,
> baby-boomers in the U.S. (i don't know if there
> was a post WWII birth surge in Europe) is going to
> be dying out in the next 2o years.
>
> The Beatles could wait 25 years to put out
> "Anthology I" and tap this market. I'm not of the
> opinion the stones can wait that long.


Who knows how long they can wait. They shure lost a great opportunity at their 40th anniversary to release Ladies And Gentlemen, as it was the 30th anniversary for the 1972 american tour. It would actually been easier than releasing Live Licks because all the producing and mixing was already done. They only had to print the cover...

But do they own Ladies And Gentlemen? If not they can only ask another company to release it. If L&G came out it would have to be from Critereon who did such a great job with Gimme Shelter.

Promotone owns LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, however the royalty rates on the ABKCO songs: JJF, SFM, YCAGWYW, GS, Love in Vain (used to be ABKCO's), Midnight Rambler, BS, Bitch, Dead Flowers, All Down the Line, and Sweet Virginia is considerably higher the first several years after they parted company with Klein. This was what killed the planned '72 and '73 live albums originally and is likely one of the reasons they're not in a hurry to issue them to this day along with all the other conspiracy theories.