How many, and are they all Keith? I hear the lead slide, the acoustic, and another (one, possible two) more prominent later in the song lower in the mix - sustained notes, maybe a slide - is that Brian? And Bill supposedly plays synth, Brian mellotron - which I may hear during the long coda (I do hear it quite clearly during Stray Cat), but any others comments based on closer listens would be appreciated. Otherwise the only other BB track w/ BJ's guitar is of course No Expectations...he did manage a few nice touches on harp, sitar etc on specific tracks.

Acoustic Guitar: Keith Richards
Electric Slide Guitar: Brian Jones
Mellotron: Brian Jones
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Bill Wyman

further info`s on this track i don`t know

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh, give me the beat, boys, and free my soul
I wanna get lost in your rock and roll and drift away

Hey, I thought so too, cause it sounds like Brian on Jig Saw, when you listen to those high notes on slide and the slow turn back in the end. Keith does that too but this sounds like Brian. Do you have a source for your info?

1. source is nico zentgraf
2. source (maybe copied from nico) is keno lyrics

-----------------------------------------------------
Oh, give me the beat, boys, and free my soul
I wanna get lost in your rock and roll and drift away

The slide sounds to me more like keith, playing similar to how he does on "Let it Bleed."

I have a radio program with Keith discussing Beggars Banquet and he says he played the slide on Jigsaw Puzzle. "and may be the acoustic as well..."

Ah, ok. I dont really trust Keiths memory, he says a lot of things, but this is a tough one. When i compare it to the one on MR its obvious its Keith samt with Let it blees, sharp, riffing almost, influenced by Ry Cooder (Keith will never admit that). Jig saw has that swayin sound on the high notes (Brian on LLR and NE)and precise turn in the end that both Brian and Keith used.

I'm missing a piece for my jigsaw puzzle of a guitar

This is what my ears tell me, with a little help from Jimmy Miller in an interview in which he mentions the Moog Synth and Brian's absense on this song:

Drums: Charlie Watts
Bass: Keith Richards
Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
Slide guitar: Keith Richards
Vocal: Mick Jagger
Piano: Nicky Hopkins
Moog Synthesizer: Bill Wyman

Mathijs

Yes I was going to mention it sounds like Keith's (busier than Bill's) bass...Thanks for all the comments...

Agree it sounds like Keith on bass . . . it's got that kind of deliberate feel to it, in the same vein as Sympathy. Very planned and methodical, yet with a groove.

I also always thought it was Keith on slide - one thing about Keith's slide playing is that it's not really subtle or fluid, like Brian or Mick T.'s style. It's almost amateurish, but in a good way. Don't get me wrong - that sound is all over Beggar's and Bleed, so it obviously can't suck. But it's definitely unique.

It's kind of a shame that Keith has been surrounded over the last 45 years by possibly the three best (or close to it) British slide players ever. He never really had a chance to develop his playing, as there was always someone who could do it better (with the exception of '68/early '69, when Brian was pretty much AWOL).

I'm now gonna go pour a drop of beer in the gutter for Keith's wasted slide potential.

it AINT Keith, its Brian...

JR

figuring this out is harder than putting together a five-hundred piece puzzle!

ok, that was lame. i've been on vacation!!

Mathijs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This is what my ears tell me, with a little help
> from Jimmy Miller in an interview in which he
> mentions the Moog Synth and Brian's absense on
> this song:
>
> Drums: Charlie Watts
> Bass: Keith Richards
> Acoustic guitar: Keith Richards
> Slide guitar: Keith Richards
> Vocal: Mick Jagger
> Piano: Nicky Hopkins
> Moog Synthesizer: Bill Wyman
>
> Mathijs


Is Jimmy Miller, a guy who had terrible drug problems, to be trusted? Sorry, but it don't sound like Keith on slide. The style, those strummed bass notes followed by the high screechers on slide, is pure Brian Jones. He does the same exact thing on Little Red Rooster, Grown Up Wrong, Doncha Bother Me, I'm A King Bee, etc. Listen to those songs, then to JSP, and finally to Keith's slide efforts on LIB and SF. It's Brian playing the slide on JSP! All major publications credited Brian with the slide on JSP until about ten years ago, when suddenly and mysteriously, people were crediting Keith with the part. Seems kind of strange to me. Also, if you listen to the slide on JSP, it does not sound so amatuerish. There is some nifty playing there, very reminiscent of Brian . . .

It aint Keith, as Keith wasnt even playing slide at these sessions...

JR

Jimmy Miller was a killer producer whose drug problem developed after a New York Times' obituary's worth of classic by the Stones & others...Whether he is any more accurate than Keith, or Bill whose obession for detail didn't guarantee factual accuracy all the time either, the guy was at the session. I tend to hear Keith on slide, as he is on several other tracks here (Salt of the Earth comes to mind), a style and sound different from BJ's No Expectations AND even degree Keith's slide playing a year later on LIB (at least on MR)....I'm not certain, but I also thought I heard a 3rd electric (I thought) slide - KR overdub (?), near the end it gets dense enough that it may be a synth/mellotron sustaining those notes...must give it a close listen this weekend.

The slide on JSP is more similar in style to No Expectations, LRR, etc. than Keith's known slide efforts on LIB, SF, and BB (ie. Salt of the Earth). Just take a listen to all these songs on slide, comparing all the respective parts played by Brian and Keith. Keith never strummed chords while playing slide ala Brian. There is also a delicate, subtle way about the slide on JSP that is more characteristic of Brian's style than that of the more loud, heavy, in-your-face Keith. This is a very technical detail and perhaps this is splitting hairs, but nobody can convince me that Keith is playing the slide on JSP. The way things are going now, people will soon begin crediting Keith with the slide in LRR, I Can't Be Satisfied, etc. . . .

Neptune its not really techical to me who hates all things technical but rather descriptive which helps support your points...I've had the song in my head and now must check it out, and Brian does have a shivery quality to his slide and I think of KR's sound as more "solid" ...I think KR's slide is quite effective and on MR dramatic as hell, perfect for the creepy studio version...a lot of serious listeners wrote responses and no consensus...

It's Keith on slide, no question there.
But no way is there a synth on this song.
I don't give a toss what Jimmy Miller says.
Remember, people's memories get blured after a while,
especially after all the abuse Miller and the Stones have endulged in.
Also, Keith can't remember what guitars he used on
JJF and SFM, and Miller's memory is quite faulty at times...
even Wyman's so-called infallible memory is wrong on certain things.
If Wyman used a synth on JP, that would be probably be one of
the first ues of a synth on a British record, and history doesn't support it.
The Monkees used the third one made (on Pisces...) and that was recorded
in Spetember 1967 (as an overdub). George Harrison never used one until
late '68 (for Electronic Sounds}, and the Beatles didn't use it until Abbey Road. Besides, being a monstrosity to set up, I can't see Bill and the gang
putting one together for such a small, barely audible part.
Perhaps Miller is confusing the Moog part with Jagger's experiments
for Kenneth Anger's film.

I don't know, They were experimenting (Brian) with Mellotrons a year previously on Satanic so why would they not use a synth in '68, already in circulation & used that year by Jagger on his soundtrack to Anger's film "Invocation Of My Demon Brother" released in '70. And there are many small details added in many months spent in the studio, with the mellotron (a seemingly bizarre choice) on Stray Cat is a small perfect "Brian" type use of color.

Nice to read about Keiths slide being more "solid" and "creepy", that's my thought too. Keith riffs on the slide or is very sharp like on You got the silver. Keith slide on Midnight rambler is one of the best Ive ever heard and I love the studio track because of his slide. But on JP Im sure it is Brian and if they change credits to him now I don't know what to think.

From what I have read everything points to Keith playing slide on this song. The only slide Brian plays on Beggars is on No Expectations. I never read anything about Brian playing slide on this song

melotron, synthesizer, Brian or Keith sliding - we've had before, but I guess there's still no conclusion
[www.iorr.org]

definately sounds like Keith on slide - listen closely it does sound like the stuff he does on LIB...
Bass also has Keith written all over it....

Plus its been said by many that Brian's only big contribution to Beggars is his slide on No Expectations.

Luke33 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> definately sounds like Keith on slide - listen
> closely it does sound like the stuff he does on
> LIB...


No it doesn't. The slide on JSP does not sound like any of the slide on LIB at all. I have listened closely for a long time and have concluded that the slide on JSP is Brian. At the same time, I am not knocking Keith's slide playing for he did a great job, especially on LIB. He should never have given up playing slide guitar for he had, I believe, a natural touch. It's too bad. However, the style on JSP, with the strummed bass notes, is more Brian than Keith. Keith's slide playing was 'heavier' and less subtle than Brian's. Keith emphasized playing certain blues/country/rock licks repeatedly on slide through the course of a song and there are usually some charming hiccups here and there. Just listen to all of the LIB album! Keith plays the same heavy lick over and over again on Monkey Man. He does the same thing on LIB, Midnight Rambler, You Got the Silver, and even to some extent Love in Vain. The slide on JSP is neither 'heavy' nor riff-driven like many of Keith's slide efforts.

Hound Dog, you can't trust many of the books about the Stones out there.

Mathjis, that sound on JSP's chorus is more like a mellotron than a Moog synthesizer.

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Luke33 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > definately sounds like Keith on slide - listen
> > closely it does sound like the stuff he does on
> > LIB...
>
>
> No it doesn't. The slide on JSP does not sound
> like any of the slide on LIB at all. I have
> listened closely for a long time and have
> concluded that the slide on JSP is Brian. At the
> same time, I am not knocking Keith's slide playing
> for he did a great job, especially on LIB. He
> should never have given up playing slide guitar
> for he had, I believe, a natural touch. It's too
> bad. However, the style on JSP, with the strummed
> bass notes, is more Brian than Keith. Keith's
> slide playing was 'heavier' and less subtle than
> Brian's. Keith emphasized playing certain
> blues/country/rock licks repeatedly on slide
> through the course of a song and there are usually
> some charming hiccups here and there. Just listen
> to all of the LIB album! Keith plays the same
> heavy lick over and over again on Monkey Man. He
> does the same thing on LIB, Midnight Rambler, You
> Got the Silver, and even to some extent Love in
> Vain. The slide on JSP is neither 'heavy' nor
> riff-driven like many of Keith's slide efforts.

For the last 20 I am completely certain it is Keith. The sound, the touch, the little turn-arounds on the low E and A strings -it's just completely Keith. What made me absolutely certain is Jimmy Miller during early '90's interviews. He was totally proud of his work with the Stones, and was just recovering to the music scene after a long battle with addictions. He is the main one who stated what Brian did on BB Brian's only guitar contibution to the album is acoustic slide on No Expectations. The rest is tambura on SFM, Mellotron on the tail-end of Stray Cat, and harp on Dear Doctor, Prodigal Son and the first solo on Parachute Woman. When asked about Brian playing slide on BB and LIB, Miller reacted with a definitively "oh no, that's all Keith".

> Mathjis, that sound on JSP's chorus is more like a
> mellotron than a Moog synthesizer.

Well, have wondered myself for years. I read everywhere that it is aMellotron, but to my ears it just doesn't sound like a mellotron, and the whining sound is just too long for the 7 seconds tapes of a Mellotron. Again, it was Jimmy Miller who stated that this sound was a Moog Synth, and courtesy of Bill Wyman. Miller added that Bill was the one who always was most interested in new electronic gadgets. Now I am not an expert on Moog's in any way, but it sure sounds like a monophonic synth to me.

Mathijs

Mathijs, I actually think Jimmy Miller is the person I am thinking of when I recall someone saying what Brian's contributions were on BB.

neptune - I undertand that you can't believe everything you read especially when it comes to things about the Stones. Even the Stones themselves say things that contrast what they have said in the past. I guess for fanatics like us you have to take certain things with a grain of salt as they say. Which is why we can still learn things about the band from 30 years ago that you never knew.

Mathjis, when Brian died in 1969, Jimmy Miller saluted Brian's efforts, noting his slide efforts on Beggar's Banquet. I don't have Miller's exact quote with me, but he did mention Brian's 'slide contributions' on BB. I'm pretty sure you can find the quote somewhere in the net. I would have to say Miller's memories of the BB sessions were probably a lot stronger in 1969 than they were in the early 90's . . .

neptune Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Mathjis, when Brian died in 1969, Jimmy Miller
> saluted Brian's efforts, noting his slide efforts
> on Beggar's Banquet. I don't have Miller's exact
> quote with me, but he did mention Brian's 'slide
> contributions' on BB. I'm pretty sure you can
> find the quote somewhere in the net. I would have
> to say Miller's memories of the BB sessions were
> probably a lot stronger in 1969 than they were in
> the early 90's . . .

I know, and therefore I always simply rely on my own ears, and my ears tell me that this isn't Brian playing slide but Keith. If people who where around at the time then also mention that Brian only contributed guitar to No Expectations, in my opinion the case is closed then.

Also: if Brian would have contributed TWO great slide parts to BB -why would everyone from Wyman to Miller to Jagger and Richards claim Jones only did ONE great guitar contribution?

Mathijs