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Dorn

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Mathijs

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Dorn


why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

tks for that information
unknown to me (and may be many others) so far

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Mathijs

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Dorn

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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Taylor1
In as much as Preston’s opening act for the Stones’ 1973 tour was professionally recorded by Andy Johns and released as a live album,does that probably mean the Stones’ shows on those dates were also recorded

About half of the tour was professionally recorded -all UK shows, most German shows, and all shows from Rotterdam on.

Mathijs

What about '72, and are they in the vault?

We know for sure that the Philly shows, Ft. Worth, Houston and all MSG shows were recorded. Pittsburgh is rumored to be recorded as well.

Mathijs

why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Dorn

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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Taylor1
In as much as Preston’s opening act for the Stones’ 1973 tour was professionally recorded by Andy Johns and released as a live album,does that probably mean the Stones’ shows on those dates were also recorded

About half of the tour was professionally recorded -all UK shows, most German shows, and all shows from Rotterdam on.

Mathijs

What about '72, and are they in the vault?

We know for sure that the Philly shows, Ft. Worth, Houston and all MSG shows were recorded. Pittsburgh is rumored to be recorded as well.

Mathijs

why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

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ProfessorWolf

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Mathijs

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Dorn

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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Taylor1
In as much as Preston’s opening act for the Stones’ 1973 tour was professionally recorded by Andy Johns and released as a live album,does that probably mean the Stones’ shows on those dates were also recorded

About half of the tour was professionally recorded -all UK shows, most German shows, and all shows from Rotterdam on.

Mathijs

What about '72, and are they in the vault?

We know for sure that the Philly shows, Ft. Worth, Houston and all MSG shows were recorded. Pittsburgh is rumored to be recorded as well.

Mathijs

why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

well then what happened to all these soundboard recordings then

i would assume that they probably recorded every show from the 70's that way since it would have been as easy as sticking a tape in and pressing record

i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

sorry if i asked this before but i can't honestly remember if i have or not

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TheflyingDutchman

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ProfessorWolf

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Mathijs

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Dorn

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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Taylor1
In as much as Preston’s opening act for the Stones’ 1973 tour was professionally recorded by Andy Johns and released as a live album,does that probably mean the Stones’ shows on those dates were also recorded

About half of the tour was professionally recorded -all UK shows, most German shows, and all shows from Rotterdam on.

Mathijs

What about '72, and are they in the vault?

We know for sure that the Philly shows, Ft. Worth, Houston and all MSG shows were recorded. Pittsburgh is rumored to be recorded as well.

Mathijs

why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

well then what happened to all these soundboard recordings then

i would assume that they probably recorded every show from the 70's that way since it would have been as easy as sticking a tape in and pressing record

i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

sorry if i asked this before but i can't honestly remember if i have or not

That's 51 years ago. Stolen, wiped, put on disk, in the vault, private collection, maybe even on the dark web. Who knows? Anything is possible.

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ProfessorWolf

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TheflyingDutchman

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ProfessorWolf

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Mathijs

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Dorn

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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Taylor1
In as much as Preston’s opening act for the Stones’ 1973 tour was professionally recorded by Andy Johns and released as a live album,does that probably mean the Stones’ shows on those dates were also recorded

About half of the tour was professionally recorded -all UK shows, most German shows, and all shows from Rotterdam on.

Mathijs

What about '72, and are they in the vault?

We know for sure that the Philly shows, Ft. Worth, Houston and all MSG shows were recorded. Pittsburgh is rumored to be recorded as well.

Mathijs

why only rumoured ? there are several boots covering this show (An American Affair VGP-083, Pittsburgh 1972 no label) taken from the mixing board (even though not in best quality)

There's a difference between soundboard and professional recording. A soundboard recording is a two channel mixed source straight as line out from the mixing board. A professional recording has line outs from each channel and recorded individually.

The Pittsburgh recording is a stereo soundboard recording, straight from the mixing desk.

Mathijs
Mathijs

well then what happened to all these soundboard recordings then

i would assume that they probably recorded every show from the 70's that way since it would have been as easy as sticking a tape in and pressing record

i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

sorry if i asked this before but i can't honestly remember if i have or not

That's 51 years ago. Stolen, wiped, put on disk, in the vault, private collection, maybe even on the dark web. Who knows? Anything is possible.

the vault possibility interests me

is there evidence that the band has any interest in preserving or releasing soundboard cassette recordings or are there priorities the professionally recorded shows

do these soundboard shows exist in there vaults or are they just thing that we as fans value and the band sees as disposable?

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ProfessorWolf
well then what happened to all these soundboard recordings then

i would assume that they probably recorded every show from the 70's that way since it would have been as easy as sticking a tape in and pressing record

i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

sorry if i asked this before but i can't honestly remember if i have or not

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Mathijs

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ProfessorWolf
well then what happened to all these soundboard recordings then

i would assume that they probably recorded every show from the 70's that way since it would have been as easy as sticking a tape in and pressing record

i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

sorry if i asked this before but i can't honestly remember if i have or not

They seemed to have recorded just about every show on cassette, and it is known that Keith, and also Mick, would listen to the recording of the show back in the hotel. We know Keith had boxes and boxes of cassettes that he hauled around in the 1970's.

The reason why we have so many soundboard recordings from the 1973 Winter tour is that Keith left them at the hotel when checked out.

Mathijs

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ProfessorWolf
i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

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witterings

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ProfessorWolf
i seem to recall some article from the mid 70's descriping keith having in his possession mountains of cassette tapes of live shows and studio sessions just piled all over the place

what happened to those?

Yes, that's right! I saw them around 1980 in large cardboard boxes (probably hundreds) scattered around the house. Mostly stereo soundboard recordings, mostly on normal BASF cassettes. Just like Golden Lp's, lying in the ashes from the fireplace.
But those times are over...

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

Mixing consoles have several line-outs: stereo, mono, balanced, unbalanced etc, and the output to a recorder is entirely different than to the drivers of the main front of house amps.

These days for concerts there is not one mixer, but several -front of house, side fills, monitors, in-ears etc, recording.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

Mixing consoles have several line-outs: stereo, mono, balanced, unbalanced etc, and the output to a recorder is entirely different than to the drivers of the main front of house amps.

These days for concerts there is not one mixer, but several -front of house, side fills, monitors, in-ears etc, recording.

Mathijs

I’m a professional audio engineer with over 20 years of experience. I have friends who were on the road with the Stones in the 90’s and A Bigger Bang tours.

What you are saying still requires a separate “mix”. It’s not a direct feed from the console as you alluded to earlier because that would have been mono. So my point stands: a separate mix was needed, either later or through Aux sends.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

Mixing consoles have several line-outs: stereo, mono, balanced, unbalanced etc, and the output to a recorder is entirely different than to the drivers of the main front of house amps.

These days for concerts there is not one mixer, but several -front of house, side fills, monitors, in-ears etc, recording.

Mathijs

I’m a professional audio engineer with over 20 years of experience. I have friends who were on the road with the Stones in the 90’s and A Bigger Bang tours.

What you are saying still requires a separate “mix”. It’s not a direct feed from the console as you alluded to earlier because that would have been mono. So my point stands: a separate mix was needed, either later or through Aux sends.

I have dozens of recordings of my own old band, taken straight from the mixing desk, in stereo, without a separate mix. They sound exactly the same as any 1973 Winter Tour or 1981 tour soundboard -dry, sterile, hardly any audience. Some are mono, some are stereo with the guitar amps panned hard left and right.

P.s. modern mixing consoles are not mono, and modern concerts are not mixed mono.

Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

Mixing consoles have several line-outs: stereo, mono, balanced, unbalanced etc, and the output to a recorder is entirely different than to the drivers of the main front of house amps.

These days for concerts there is not one mixer, but several -front of house, side fills, monitors, in-ears etc, recording.

Mathijs

I’m a professional audio engineer with over 20 years of experience. I have friends who were on the road with the Stones in the 90’s and A Bigger Bang tours.

What you are saying still requires a separate “mix”. It’s not a direct feed from the console as you alluded to earlier because that would have been mono. So my point stands: a separate mix was needed, either later or through Aux sends.

I have dozens of recordings of my own old band, taken straight from the mixing desk, in stereo, without a separate mix. They sound exactly the same as any 1973 Winter Tour or 1981 tour soundboard -dry, sterile, hardly any audience. Some are mono, some are stereo with the guitar amps panned hard left and right.

P.s. modern mixing consoles are not mono, and modern concerts are not mixed mono.

Mathijs

Lol consoles are not mono, and I never said they were. I said mixing in mono for a concert was a rule of thumb back then because of where people are seated and primitive venues lacking full stereo coverage. Now we can open an entire can of worms concerning modern premiere tours and complex line array speakers, but that's another topic and one I am clearly not addressing when we're talking about cassette soundboard recordings from the 70's. C'mon now dude.

You aren't grasping what I am saying: if the concert was mixed mono for the audience, which was a general rule of thumb back in the day, then there would 100% need to be a separate mix if you are recording it straight from the mixer.

If the show was mixed stereo, then of course the recorder is getting a stereo recording. Back to my original post, I am surprised they'd be mixing a show in full stereo back then.

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan
What’s interesting to me are the stereo soundboards. A general rule of thumb for live sound is to mix it in mono because you are mixing for the entire audience, not people right down the middle.

So these were either mixed after the show or they were sent to a separate mixing recorder, which I suppose is possible.

Mixing consoles have several line-outs: stereo, mono, balanced, unbalanced etc, and the output to a recorder is entirely different than to the drivers of the main front of house amps.

These days for concerts there is not one mixer, but several -front of house, side fills, monitors, in-ears etc, recording.

Mathijs

I’m a professional audio engineer with over 20 years of experience. I have friends who were on the road with the Stones in the 90’s and A Bigger Bang tours.

What you are saying still requires a separate “mix”. It’s not a direct feed from the console as you alluded to earlier because that would have been mono. So my point stands: a separate mix was needed, either later or through Aux sends.

I have dozens of recordings of my own old band, taken straight from the mixing desk, in stereo, without a separate mix. They sound exactly the same as any 1973 Winter Tour or 1981 tour soundboard -dry, sterile, hardly any audience. Some are mono, some are stereo with the guitar amps panned hard left and right.

P.s. modern mixing consoles are not mono, and modern concerts are not mixed mono.

Mathijs

Lol consoles are not mono, and I never said they were. I said mixing in mono for a concert was a rule of thumb back then because of where people are seated and primitive venues lacking full stereo coverage. Now we can open an entire can of worms concerning modern premiere tours and complex line array speakers, but that's another topic and one I am clearly not addressing when we're talking about cassette soundboard recordings from the 70's. C'mon now dude.

You aren't grasping what I am saying: if the concert was mixed mono for the audience, which was a general rule of thumb back in the day, then there would 100% need to be a separate mix if you are recording it straight from the mixer.

If the show was mixed stereo, then of course the recorder is getting a stereo recording. Back to my original post, I am surprised they'd be mixing a show in full stereo back then.

Sorry, you don't seem to fully understand it -a sound desk consists of two parts -an input section with individual channels with their own EQ controls: the channel strip. The output goes to auxiliary sends, which are faders that send the signal to alternate outputs which are used for effects such as reverb or echo.

The outputs of the input section go to the master Section, which has the main faders that controls the output to the master amps and recording devices. With the faders you have channel selection, and selection for mono or stereo output.

Thus, you mix with the input section, and with the master selection you can mix for separate outputs: mono or stereo for the front of house, and independent of the front of house output mono or stereo for the tape recorder. So the Winter tour 1973 recordings are stereo output recordings of a mono front of house show.

Mathijs

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ProfessorWolf
are you serious or are you kidding?

because i'm certain i read this in a magazine article from the 70's and i'm pretty sure it's not the only time someones mentioned keith hoarding cassettes

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witterings

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ProfessorWolf
are you serious or are you kidding?

because i'm certain i read this in a magazine article from the 70's and i'm pretty sure it's not the only time someones mentioned keith hoarding cassettes

No, I'm serious!

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TravelinMan

As I've already noted, the FOH mix would most likely have been mono back then, especially by a professional that knew what they were doing under the limitations of those archaic venues. Does this mean they all were, no. There's no way to be certain.

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Mathijs


Then you had the Mobile truck behind the stage area recording the show on 16-track half-inch tape
Mathijs

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Doxa
And I thought the dudes are here eagerly discussing Preston's opening spot for two pages...

Seriously: great, informative stuff. Thank you.

- Doxa

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Mathijs

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TravelinMan

As I've already noted, the FOH mix would most likely have been mono back then, especially by a professional that knew what they were doing under the limitations of those archaic venues. Does this mean they all were, no. There's no way to be certain.

The concerts in the 1970's were mixed in double mono, as you would have separate master amps driving the left and right column of speakers. So, Rotterdam 1973 had 16 channel strips being routed to the master section, with four master outputs: two mono left and right faders to the master and slave amps, and a left/right stereo image sent via pots to a reel-to-reel tape machine. From this tape machine several cassette tapes were made for the Stones, but the Stones also used reel-to-reel at home. There's a famous story of Keith spending hours to load a tape into a machine.

Then you had the Mobile truck behind the stage area recording the show on 16-track half-inch tape, needing mixing and mastering before it can be used as a release.

Mathijs

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ProfessorWolf

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dcba

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ProfessorWolf

boxset! boxset! boxset!

but i could see my proposed boxset be released for the 80th anniversary of the 73 european tour in 2053 if not i guess i'll have to wait until 2073 for the 100th anniversary by then i'll be 82

Good for you, i will still be putting together Stones Concerts and I will be 123 years old

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dcba

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Mathijs


Then you had the Mobile truck behind the stage area recording the show on 16-track half-inch tape
Mathijs

Do you know how these 16 tracks were distributed... how many tracks were used to record drums (4 at least I'd guess). Did they get Keith's amp with one mike or more?
Did they use all 16 tracks as they were recordings gigs or did they keep 2 or 3 track for later studio overdubs?

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midimannz

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ProfessorWolf

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dcba

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ProfessorWolf

boxset! boxset! boxset!

but i could see my proposed boxset be released for the 80th anniversary of the 73 european tour in 2053 if not i guess i'll have to wait until 2073 for the 100th anniversary by then i'll be 82

Good for you, i will still be putting together Stones Concerts and I will be 123 years old

cool see you at the premier screening of knebworth in 2076 when mick finally releases it

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Mathijs

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dcba

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Mathijs


Then you had the Mobile truck behind the stage area recording the show on 16-track half-inch tape
Mathijs

Do you know how these 16 tracks were distributed... how many tracks were used to record drums (4 at least I'd guess). Did they get Keith's amp with one mike or more?
Did they use all 16 tracks as they were recordings gigs or did they keep 2 or 3 track for later studio overdubs?

Here's a nice article about Jim Gamble and Tycobrahe, they did the 1973 Stones tour. I had an article and pictures about the setup on this tour that I cannot find anymore, but it is very similar to what is described in this article.

[www.prosoundweb.com]

Concerning live recording: each instrument was recorded on a dedicated track, and in the studio mixdowns were made to open tracks for overdubs. Standard was to mixdown the drum tracks from say 6 microphone tracks to a left/right stereo track, and use the now cleared 4 tracks for overdubs.

Btw I don't know when exactly the Mobile truck moved from 16 to 24 tracks. Wally Heider mobile recorders in the U.S. had 24 tracks by 1972.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

Btw I don't know when exactly the Mobile truck moved from 16 to 24 tracks. Wally Heider mobile recorders in the U.S. had 24 tracks by 1972.

Mathijs