I'm aware that Oldham basically burned the band and locked them into self-serving deals. I am curious to know if the band ever reached a point of 'water under the bridge' with Oldham, and if there are any reports of Oldham ever attending any shows in the last 25 or so years. I am aware he lives in Bogota, and the Stones played there in 2016. Would Andrew have been invited ?

I read both his Stoned 1 & 2 autobiographies, (great reads btw } and he mentioned he has gone to see them in concert in more recent years.

He seems to have reconciled the past... not sure if Mick has or ever will . .

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Jbeckerfan
I'm aware that Oldham basically burned the band and locked them into self-serving deals. I am curious to know if the band ever reached a point of 'water under the bridge' with Oldham, and if there are any reports of Oldham ever attending any shows in the last 25 or so years. I am aware he lives in Bogota, and the Stones played there in 2016. Would Andrew have been invited ?

He was living in Vancouver for a while, he actually taught a Stones university course at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops in the BC interior, about 4 hours from Van.

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DGA35

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Jbeckerfan
I'm aware that Oldham basically burned the band and locked them into self-serving deals. I am curious to know if the band ever reached a point of 'water under the bridge' with Oldham, and if there are any reports of Oldham ever attending any shows in the last 25 or so years. I am aware he lives in Bogota, and the Stones played there in 2016. Would Andrew have been invited ?

He was living in Vancouver for a while, he actually taught a Stones university course at Thompson Rivers University in Kamloops in the BC interior, about 4 hours from Van.

I saw him at a screening of Charlie is My Darling at the Rio Theatre years ago...2011 I think? He gave a little speech before the show and then did Q&A after.

It was very cool. It was before it was officially released so the screening was fairly pixilated, I think something taken off of YouTube.

BlueLands nailed it. I believe Andrew was backstage in 1995 and maybe again in 2003 (uncertain). Keith was friendly to him. Andrew has been responsive to polite fans via social media. Keith is fine with him, Mick isn't. Andrew likens Mick to a bitter ex-wife. Incredibly entertaining as both a writer and a raconteur. Despite all of the criticisms leveled against him (he never really produced anything unless they were unhappy with the outcome and then it was his fault), he was unquestionably another crucial piece of the puzzle that made them legends. His departure was another end of an era for the band.

What actually did happen between ALO and the band that Mick supposedly still feels bitter about? He let them down after the drug bust, and Klein needed to sort that out. The band then make it indirectly clear that they didn't want his services any longer during SATANIC MAJESTIES sessions. So he left, but more like was pushed away.

Or is more like him being heavily linked to Klein and ABKCO, that is always a no-no to Mick?

- Doxa

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Doxa
What actually did happen between ALO and the band that Mick supposedly still feels bitter about? He let them down after the drug bust, and Klein needed to sort that out. The band then make it indirectly clear that they didn't want his services any longer during SATANIC MAJESTIES sessions. So he left, but more like was pushed away.

Or is more like him being heavily linked to Klein and ABKCO, that is always a no-no to Mick?

- Doxa

I always had thought Andrew just "cashed out" but it was probably a combination of a number of things; the Stones wanting a better producer ie George Martin ("we could probably do it ourselves better than Andrew" leading to TSMR, before learning from that!); persuasion from Klein; his own other projects and maybe the need for cash (how long can this Stones thing possibly last anyway).

Who knows for sure and probably different from different POVs but I believe there's a number of contributing factors.

He had a show on SiriusXM - not sure if he still does. Great stories.

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Doxa
What actually did happen between ALO and the band that Mick supposedly still feels bitter about? He let them down after the drug bust, and Klein needed to sort that out. The band then make it indirectly clear that they didn't want his services any longer during SATANIC MAJESTIES sessions. So he left, but more like was pushed away.

Or is more like him being heavily linked to Klein and ABKCO, that is always a no-no to Mick?

- Doxa

I think one of the main things is that Oldham was part of the deal with Klein -It was Oldham who created the Nanker/Phelge deal so that he could cash in as well, it was Oldham pushing Jagger and Richards to write demos for other people and it was Oldham pushing the Stones to have a new hit single every three months. They wanted to break away from all that, they wanted to be in control themselves, with two main casualties: Oldham and Brian Jones.

Oldham always kept in touch with Keith, and in the early 1980's he lived in New York, sharing Keith's house with Mick Taylor, Marianne Faithful and Anita Pallenberg.

Mathijs



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-14 11:06 by Mathijs.

Yeah, my quess that is the Klein connection that Mick never seems to forgive(if there is any particular reason to be bitter about): Andrew being a vital factor the deal with Klein to happen, Klein taking the manager job from him, and then, when the things get heated, Andrew afterwards taking the side 'enemy', that of Klein and ABKCO. Mick probably wasn't that pleased reading Andrew's writings on the cover of METAMORPHOSIS, etc.

Interesting to know that Keith's been in rather okay terms with Andrew since then. Keith's attitude even towards Klein seems to milder than Mick's: he talks about the deal being a part of education or something... And you know, "shit happens"... But probably he has some personal issues there, because it was him from all of the band most into the deal, being totally charmed by Klein's cowboy antics. It's been claimed that since that deal Mick never listens Keith as far as big business decisions are concerned, nor Keith much is into giving any, having learned his lesson.. Mick learned his own too, and trusts only true pros there, people like Prince Rupert.

But back to Andrew. True that by 1967 they, like The Beatles, were artistically achieved that kind of independency and seriousness that Andrew's cheap tricks and sometimes desperate attempts to gain success started to be dated. After Klein they didn't need him financially nor now they didn't need him artistically. But I think they - Mick - should not feel bitter about what they did and achieved with Andrew in his hey-day. Mick's always been very pragmatic, non-nostalgic and forward-looking, so I think it is more like 'okay, what is done is done, don't look back'. I think it is more like a question of being vain and that of ego: probably like Brian, Andrew belongs to very few people who actually has had a remarkable effect on Mick's own career, and Mick never been that keen on giving credit anyone for that... So his memory might be pretty selective there, and not too into being reminded of that...

But that of Andrew seeing Mick as a 'bitter ex-wife', I think Andrew himself sounds more like being one. You know, him dumped down and totally ignored, and not let to talk about the good old times with the partner who totally left him behind... That might sound cruel and harsh... Well, Mick seemingly is not very sentimental dude..

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-14 12:57 by Doxa.

Yep,

Keith called getting ripped off by Klein "...the price of a an education"

It wouldn't be a surprise to find that this stuff hurt Mick more than Keith.

Mick's the more business orientated and will prides himself on being financially astute....so to have the wool pulled over his eyes financially will have hurt, even at his then quite young age.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-14 13:01 by Spud.

Human relationships are always difficult..., I don't know what happened, but if Mick no longer wants to have anything to do with Oldham he will have his good reasons.

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Spud
Yep,

Keith called getting ripped off by Klein "...the price of a an education"

It wouldn't be a surprise to find that this stuff hurt Mick more than Keith.

Mick's the more business orientated and will prides himself on being financially astute....so to have the wool pulled over his eyes financially will have hurt, even at his then quite young age.

Additionally, Mick is the one who had to sort it all out, not Keith. And, given their relative lucidity at the time, Mick likely knows more than Keith. I don't get the impression Mick is particularly one to hold grudges for no reason, so if Oldham is a no-no to him, I would suspect he has good cause.

I don't think Keith's ever had to sort anything out in his whole life

He just doesn't live like that.

Charlie described him as a true "bohemian"

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Spud
I don't think Keith's ever had to sort anything out in his whole life

He just doesn't live like that.

Charlie described him as a true "bohemian"

In his non-released autobiography is referenced that Mick sees Keith as a pure artist and would like to have more people like him. It probably is the same thing Mick admires in him, like we all do.

I guess Keith if anyone lives like a dream life, not needing to worry about money or everyday matters. Just do what feels good.. But it helps if one has some Mick Jagger around sorting things out...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-14 16:51 by Doxa.

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Doxa

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Spud
I don't think Keith's ever had to sort anything out in his whole life

He just doesn't live like that.

Charlie described him as a true "bohemian"

In his non-released autobiography is referenced that Mick sees Keith as a pure artist and would like to have more people like him. It probably is the same thing Mick admires in him, like we all do.

I guess Keith if anyone lives like a dream life, not needing to worry about money or everyday matters. Just do what feels good.. But it helps if one has some Mick Jagger around sorting things out...

- Doxa

Ha ha, now that's an extremely good one, Doxa!

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Rocky Dijon
BlueLands nailed it. I believe Andrew was backstage in 1995 and maybe again in 2003 (uncertain). Keith was friendly to him. Andrew has been responsive to polite fans via social media. Keith is fine with him, Mick isn't. Andrew likens Mick to a bitter ex-wife. Incredibly entertaining as both a writer and a raconteur. Despite all of the criticisms leveled against him (he never really produced anything unless they were unhappy with the outcome and then it was his fault), he was unquestionably another crucial piece of the puzzle that made them legends. His departure was another end of an era for the band.

Probably more often. I had a friend in New York who once told me that he was taken backstage by Oldham a few times, and Andrew himself once told me that a band he managed supported the Stones on some South America dates.

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Doxa
What actually did happen between ALO and the band that Mick supposedly still feels bitter about? He let them down after the drug bust, and Klein needed to sort that out. The band then make it indirectly clear that they didn't want his services any longer during SATANIC MAJESTIES sessions. So he left, but more like was pushed away.

Or is more like him being heavily linked to Klein and ABKCO, that is always a no-no to Mick?

- Doxa

When I was first getting into the Stones, I began doing a lot of reading about their background, and I found Andrew Oldham to be a fascinating individual. I don't know whether it was a combination of drug use and/or just losing interest in the band that ultimately resulted in his parting ways with the Stones, but nobody can deny that this guy was a true visionary who was at the forefront of the 1960's British music scene. He came to the Stones when he was like 19 or 20 years old! He recognized their potential right off and worked to shaped their image and sound and crafted some great strategies that were paramount to their success like encouraging Jagger and Richards to write songs, encouraging and promoting the Stones "bad boy image", etc.

If I were Mick Jagger, if anything, I would be extremely grateful for his influence LOL!

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retired_dog
Andrew himself once told me that a band he managed supported the Stones on some South America dates.

The Paranoid Rats!

Hard to understand why Mick would feel so strongly against someone for so long, especially when you are worth half a billion pounds, what's to feel bitter about, that's for people who have nothing for their efforts like Taylor.

Keep in mind that no one has told any of the central characters (Mick & Keith) “No” in nearly 60 years. Mick clearly has no time for anyone who will not serve to benefit him, and perhaps ALO fell out of that category and Mick fired him for the band? Keith probably had no (visual) role other than to back Mick when ALO asked. ALO has been to several Stones shows both in Colombia and elsewhere, and he’s done well enough for himself riding out the crest of the wave he started back in 1963. After all, we still take time out of our lives to ponder his acts and then write about them when he’s had no role with The Rolling Stones in 57 years.

Kick me like you kicked before
I can't even feel the pain no more

"Rocks Off", Exile on Main Street
Rolling Stones, 1972

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Rocky Dijon

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retired_dog
Andrew himself once told me that a band he managed supported the Stones on some South America dates.

The Paranoid Rats!

They were a good rocking band.

If anyone is interested in some of the detail of Oldham's brokering of the deal with Klein, there is a lot of good info in Fred Goodman's biography of Klein.

This thread reminded me of an entirely unrelated anecdote: I have a friend who was a significant music journalist in the UK in the 70s and 80s, especially interested in the music industry. Working for the Oxford University student newspaper in 1965, he arranged an interview with ALO. On the day of the interview, however, Mick and Keith turned up. "Andrew can't come, he's sent us instead". My friend replied: "But I don't want to speak to you, I want to speak to Andrew!".

syrel

Rock Cellar Magazine:
Elvis covered songs by The Beatles. Hypothetically, had he taken a crack at a Stones song or two, which ones would he have nailed?

Andrew Loog Oldham:
She Smiled Sweetly, Wild Horses. Nice question. Thank you.



ROCKMAN

ROCKMAN

Andrew Loog Oldham - Stone Free 2012 ---- Chapter 16 - Loving The Aliens



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-15 07:28 by Rockman.

Thanks, Rockman. Andrew's own take on the issue seems to be pretty close what I assumed. I don't think there is any bigger personal drama. Their once tight relationship and probably some kind of friendship was based on business. Mick's train just move on, and Andrew was left at the station. Looking at his used ticket, Klein's stamp on it.

The boys did history together, but Mick was busy to make some more history. Still is.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-15 10:21 by Doxa.

Doesnt answer jbeckerfan's original Q ...
But kinda gives a feel of what the vibes
musta been like around those Satanic sessions .......

The Rolling Stones Rare And Unseen ----- Gered Mankowitz



ROCKMAN

I must admit I'm not very familiar with the ALO/Klein dealings, but reading some posts here it seems ALO had sold his "rights" to Klein. That wouldn't be related to "management" per say, right ? Maybe some publishing he owned ?

--------------
IORR Links : Essential Studio Outtakes CDs : Audio - History of Rarest Outtakes : Audio



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-05-15 19:53 by gotdablouse.

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keefriffhards
Hard to understand why Mick would feel so strongly against someone for so long, especially when you are worth half a billion pounds, what's to feel bitter about, that's for people who have nothing for their efforts like Taylor.

Klein stole the rights to Mick and Keith's creative work. That goes beyond money.