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Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: October 31, 2023 11:37

how bout' a compromise

mick sings it on the album and keith sings it onstage

that way keith will have 2 new songs for his setwinking smiley

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: undertheradar ()
Date: October 31, 2023 13:40

Quote
ProfessorWolf
how bout' a compromise

mick sings it on the album and keith sings it onstage

that way keith will have 2 new songs for his setwinking smiley

Doubt that would happen but I do like that idea..

*****
Undertheradar
Disclaimer: I was drunk when I wrote this ;-)

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: October 31, 2023 20:00

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
LondonLee
Just came on here to say that Keith should have sung this but that seems to be the popular opinion anyway!

It's OK to say it unless i say it confused smiley

Looks like you are under closer observation than LondonLee...

Btw., as you claim that HD is a Mick solo album, one Keith lead vocal is more than enough and much more than Mick was ever allowed on a Keith solo album...

Grow up

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: November 1, 2023 04:06

Another fantastic ballad on the album - Ronnie! Holy crap, Ronnie really adds to this tune.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 1, 2023 12:21

My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-01 12:34 by Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 1, 2023 12:35

Quote
GasLightStreet
Another fantastic ballad on the album - Ronnie! Holy crap, Ronnie really adds to this tune.

Just beautiful. Really, really good.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 1, 2023 13:14

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
GasLightStreet
Another fantastic ballad on the album - Ronnie! Holy crap, Ronnie really adds to this tune.

Just beautiful. Really, really good.

Yeah, it is (and altogether all the guitars are so damn tasty on this one - the solo, if one can call that, is fantastic in its minimalism and smoothness).

Ronnie's contribution is distinctive altogether in the album. Makes me think that his role in the band has naturally increased since the passing of Charlie. You know, to make them sound authentic Stones - there is only three of them left to do that. Watt seemingly realized this - and I think he altogether used very well the voices of these three key players thorough the album. They all shine and are distinctive: Mick, Keith and Ronnie.

This leads back to "Driving Me Too Hard". Namely, the passing of Charlie also has probably a role of Keith not singing this tune. Or that he has only one song to sing lead in the album. I mean, there is the danger that if the axis of Keith and Jordan is used too much that would make the result more like a Winos recording, not that of the Stones. It would have been only in the shoulders of Ronnie to make that something different - more Stonesy, that is. (Of course, there are people would like the album sound more like a Winos album - or who prefer the Winos over Jagger-lead Stones - but that is another issue).

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-01 13:21 by Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: marcovandereijk ()
Date: November 1, 2023 14:30

With all respect to Ronnies contributions, I am convinced that the solo on Driving
me too hard is from Keith. Or wasn't it suggested that Ron did the solo?
The solo reminds me strongly of Slipping Away.

Just as long as the guitar plays, let it steal your heart away

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 1, 2023 14:35

Quote
marcovandereijk
With all respect to Ronnies contributions, I am convinced that the solo on Driving
me too hard is from Keith. Or wasn't it suggested that Ron did the solo?
The solo reminds me strongly of Slipping Away.

The solo is definitely Keith. However, the stunning b-bender playing all through the track is Ronnie smiling smiley

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 1, 2023 14:40

Quote
Doxa
My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa

Such an insightful post, that explains a couple things that have confused me. Cheers Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 1, 2023 15:56

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
marcovandereijk
With all respect to Ronnies contributions, I am convinced that the solo on Driving
me too hard is from Keith. Or wasn't it suggested that Ron did the solo?
The solo reminds me strongly of Slipping Away.

The solo is definitely Keith. However, the stunning b-bender playing all through the track is Ronnie smiling smiley

Yeah, I did not mean to claim it is Ronnie. Sorry my weakly constructed sentences. The solo is pure, stunning Keef.

- Doxa

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 1, 2023 16:08

Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
Doxa
My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa

Such an insightful post, that explains a couple things that have confused me. Cheers Doxa.

Thanks. I need to admit I expected you to come with something else, but wonderful to be wrong. Cheers for that! But then again, I was already ready to reply to your expected critisism (how the point applies other way around, to Mick's songs), but now I cannot do that, which is a shame...smoking smiley

By the way, I did notice that there is a 'c' letter missing from 'clicking' in my post. But then again, 'lick' do well enough in this context! grinning smiley

- Doxa

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: November 1, 2023 16:19

Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
Doxa
My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa

Such an insightful post, that explains a couple things that have confused me. Cheers Doxa.

Thanks. I need to admit I expected you to come with something else, but wonderful to be wrong. Cheers for that! But then again, I was already ready to reply to your expected critisism (how the point applies other way around, to Mick's songs), but now I cannot do that, which is a shame...smoking smiley

By the way, I did notice that there is a 'c' letter missing from 'clicking' in my post. But then again, 'lick' do well enough in this context! grinning smiley

- Doxa

I'm also glad Mick sang Driving me Too Hard. I think it's a wonderful ballad - and one of the more melodic songs along with Depending On You and Sweet Sounds Of Heaven that helps tips Hackney Diamonds from a good album to a great one.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 1, 2023 16:30

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
Doxa
My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa

Such an insightful post, that explains a couple things that have confused me. Cheers Doxa.

Thanks. I need to admit I expected you to come with something else, but wonderful to be wrong. Cheers for that! But then again, I was already ready to reply to your expected critisism (how the point applies other way around, to Mick's songs), but now I cannot do that, which is a shame...smoking smiley

By the way, I did notice that there is a 'c' letter missing from 'clicking' in my post. But then again, 'lick' do well enough in this context! grinning smiley

- Doxa

I'm also glad Mick sang Driving me Too Hard. I think it's a wonderful ballad - and one of the more melodic songs along with Depending On You and Sweet Sounds Of Heaven that helps tips Hackney Diamonds from a good album to a great one.

Mick sings it wonderfully.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 1, 2023 16:49

Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
Doxa
My two cents on 'Keith should have sang it'.

I agree that the tune sounds like it is made for Keith to sing. But I am grateful that Mick did the tune, since he adds there something that makes it more than 'just another Winos tune'. Now it is more Rolling Stones and fits better to the album and for its coherence. (Besides - what is the common factor for all those uneven albums from DIRTY WORK to A BIGGER BANG? well, Keith sings more than one tune).

However, if this really is Watt's version of locking up Mick and Keith in the kitchen - The Twins 'writing together' - I think it does not give a very good picture of how the dudes creatively lick any longer. Or at least as far as is the traditional picture of 'Keith comes up with the basics' - the musical structure and key phrases - and then 'Mick ads his bit there' (finishing up the melody, writing the rest of the lyrics).

Namely, if the result sounds like a Keith Richards solo tune, and not something Mick is quite content with, it means that either Keith's tunes nowadays are too idiosyncratic to inspire Mick or Mick is just not inspired/interested/is too lazy in developing them further to fit his mouth. I think the same happened with "One More Shot" - despite Keith claiming at the time of CROSSEYED HEART that 'all of his songs are made for Mick to sing'. Probably in reality, he makes songs for himself (that is pretty natural since learning the habit of doing solo spots and solo records).

Probably the thing is that the Twins do know this, and have known it for ages, and that's why not even trying to pretend anything else (in private, that is). Now they did that as a showcase to please Watt I guess.

But this is just a minor criticism concerning the key phrase melody line and Mick's role there - otherwise "Driving Me Too Hard" is a damn good song, and lots of great things happening there.

- Doxa

Such an insightful post, that explains a couple things that have confused me. Cheers Doxa.

Thanks. I need to admit I expected you to come with something else, but wonderful to be wrong. Cheers for that! But then again, I was already ready to reply to your expected critisism (how the point applies other way around, to Mick's songs), but now I cannot do that, which is a shame...smoking smiley

By the way, I did notice that there is a 'c' letter missing from 'clicking' in my post. But then again, 'lick' do well enough in this context! grinning smiley

- Doxa

Not sure what you are saying about click and lick but never mind.

I appreciate your post because it explains why Keith only seems to provided the album with 25% of the tracks.
It also explains how Keith has got himself in a bit of a jam creatively.
I think you are hinting ( and i agree) that Mick rejects a lot of Keith's work because its not really what Mick wants to sing.
Now normally we could say that's OK because Keith will use those tracks on his next solo album like he did with CH.
But Keith unwittingly has given up his co writer/ producer/ drummer to the Stones now. Steve is the Stones drummer, it gets political, how can Keith now pull Jordan to one side for 6 months and make a solo album with him, with Keith's unused songs.
I think if he did that it would brake up the Stones, especially from Micks point of view.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: MonkeyMan2000 ()
Date: November 1, 2023 17:14

I mean, this tune has been around for at least eight years now. They sure all must have been inspired to try it again and again and even though the result sounds a bit like a textbook Stones tune, everyone of the three main guys demonstrate their role in this band beautifully and I don't think anybody sounds unsatisfied or uninspired.

I think it is true that the songs Keith has written in the past 20 or so years show that his songwriting is getting less diverse. Even though there's many great songs there and surely also a few exeptions (like Substantial Damage), the tendency is clear: A bit mellow, mid-tempo, reflective,...
That might be what sometimes leaves Mick uninspired with Keith's tunes. They've become a bit predictable, even if they have a nice chord structure and are isolatedly seen great songs.

This is a natural process that happens when a songwriter doesn't explore new styles anymore to listen to. We know that Keith has his stuff that he loves but there's just so much inspiration to come from the same tunes and artists. I don't say that one needs to be keeping up with modern music. It could also be getting into Ethiopian Jazz from the 70's or modern Desert Blues like Tinariwen that tickles a songwriter's muse and leads to new diversity in songwriting. Keith just seems to have stopped doing that some time in the 80's or 90's. And when he gives props to new artists, they mostly do styles that he's been into since decades.
I wouldn't blame him for that. I think it has been empirically proven that most people stop discovering new music at a certain age and just stick with what they already know.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-01 17:15 by MonkeyMan2000.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 1, 2023 19:25

Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I mean, this tune has been around for at least eight years now. They sure all must have been inspired to try it again and again and even though the result sounds a bit like a textbook Stones tune, everyone of the three main guys demonstrate their role in this band beautifully and I don't think anybody sounds unsatisfied or uninspired.

I think it is true that the songs Keith has written in the past 20 or so years show that his songwriting is getting less diverse. Even though there's many great songs there and surely also a few exeptions (like Substantial Damage), the tendency is clear: A bit mellow, mid-tempo, reflective,...
That might be what sometimes leaves Mick uninspired with Keith's tunes. They've become a bit predictable, even if they have a nice chord structure and are isolatedly seen great songs.

This is a natural process that happens when a songwriter doesn't explore new styles anymore to listen to. We know that Keith has his stuff that he loves but there's just so much inspiration to come from the same tunes and artists. I don't say that one needs to be keeping up with modern music. It could also be getting into Ethiopian Jazz from the 70's or modern Desert Blues like Tinariwen that tickles a songwriter's muse and leads to new diversity in songwriting. Keith just seems to have stopped doing that some time in the 80's or 90's. And when he gives props to new artists, they mostly do styles that he's been into since decades.
I wouldn't blame him for that. I think it has been empirically proven that most people stop discovering new music at a certain age and just stick with what they already know.

No offence but i think Keith just needs to stick to the music he loves, personally for me his music hasn't got tired or boring, Crosseyed Heart was very diverse, perhaps he needs some more of those killer riffs and recognisable intros to gain more adoration from Stones fans, but at the end of the day the man is 80 and i get the impression he's done,
I explained in a post above that Keith has made it near impossible to make a solo album with Steve Jordan.
If CH was Keith's last solo album and his swansong and his contribution to HD and the follow up album his last Stones Studio work he can consider those 60 years writing as good as it gets in this genre, second to none.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: MonkeyMan2000 ()
Date: November 1, 2023 19:31

Yeah, I get that. I also like CH and think he's had great input in Hackney Diamonds, more than some give him credit for. I tried to explain how a creative well can run dry without new input, but I didn't mean it in a negative sense at all, because I like most of the songs he writes and of course love the style.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: peoplewitheyes ()
Date: November 1, 2023 20:02

.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-01 20:06 by peoplewitheyes.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: peoplewitheyes ()
Date: November 1, 2023 20:09

Oh how I love this track. Sultry memories of Crazy Mama, Ronnie dousing the track with liquid silk, and Keith at his propulsive/lazy best.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 1, 2023 20:54

Quote
MonkeyMan2000
Yeah, I get that. I also like CH and think he's had great input in Hackney Diamonds, more than some give him credit for. I tried to explain how a creative well can run dry without new input, but I didn't mean it in a negative sense at all, because I like most of the songs he writes and of course love the style.

Yes i understand what you was saying, Keith said he believes you should be very careful who you listen to musically as it will come out and influence what you write.
So what you were saying has a flip side, it can work for good creatively but it can also cause a dive, i guess Keith is saying stay true to yourself, listen to what resonates with your inner being.
When i think of Paul Simon he never recovered creatively from his deviation into the music that inspired Graceland.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: peoplewitheyes ()
Date: November 1, 2023 21:30

I'd love to see that quote where Keith warns about listening to too broad a spectrum of music.

It seems to be that the more eclectic your listening, the more inspiration will strike you.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: jp.M ()
Date: November 1, 2023 23:04

...maybe not the best but the one I like the most after 2 weeks...everyone makes a good job...!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 1, 2023 23:48

Quote
peoplewitheyes
I'd love to see that quote where Keith warns about listening to too broad a spectrum of music.

It seems to be that the more eclectic your listening, the more inspiration will strike you.

He said be careful what you listen to because it comes out in what you do, he didn't say anything about not listening to a broad spectrum of music and neither did i quote that, i take it to mean don't listen to crap listen to the good stuff, don't follow trends because they get dated etc.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: ProfessorWolf ()
Date: November 2, 2023 01:34

Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I mean, this tune has been around for at least eight years now. They sure all must have been inspired to try it again and again and even though the result sounds a bit like a textbook Stones tune, everyone of the three main guys demonstrate their role in this band beautifully and I don't think anybody sounds unsatisfied or uninspired.

I think it is true that the songs Keith has written in the past 20 or so years show that his songwriting is getting less diverse. Even though there's many great songs there and surely also a few exeptions (like Substantial Damage), the tendency is clear: A bit mellow, mid-tempo, reflective,...
That might be what sometimes leaves Mick uninspired with Keith's tunes. They've become a bit predictable, even if they have a nice chord structure and are isolatedly seen great songs.

This is a natural process that happens when a songwriter doesn't explore new styles anymore to listen to. We know that Keith has his stuff that he loves but there's just so much inspiration to come from the same tunes and artists. I don't say that one needs to be keeping up with modern music. It could also be getting into Ethiopian Jazz from the 70's or modern Desert Blues like Tinariwen that tickles a songwriter's muse and leads to new diversity in songwriting. Keith just seems to have stopped doing that some time in the 80's or 90's. And when he gives props to new artists, they mostly do styles that he's been into since decades.
I wouldn't blame him for that. I think it has been empirically proven that most people stop discovering new music at a certain age and just stick with what they already know.

No offence but i think Keith just needs to stick to the music he loves, personally for me his music hasn't got tired or boring, Crosseyed Heart was very diverse, perhaps he needs some more of those killer riffs and recognisable intros to gain more adoration from Stones fans, but at the end of the day the man is 80 and i get the impression he's done,
I explained in a post above that Keith has made it near impossible to make a solo album with Steve Jordan.
If CH was Keith's last solo album and his swansong and his contribution to HD and the follow up album his last Stones Studio work he can consider those 60 years writing as good as it gets in this genre, second to none.

i'm not sure i get the logic behind what you mean about jordan being unable to record with the stones and the winos/keith

well maybe if it gets in the way of a stones tour or studio sessions but frankly there not that active as a band anymore large chunks of the year there just doing nothing no tour no recording

why couldn't steve and keith work on solo stuff the eight months out of twelve the stones aren't doing anything?

i've also had a similar thoughts about keith having a stockpile of rejected song ideas from these sessions that could be used for a solo album

but i'm a little more optimistic about us getting more solo stuff from keith eventually

hopefully

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: November 2, 2023 03:16

This song, for me, falls under 'classic modern Stones ballad'. Of course, meaning post-1981, because they didn't do another ballad until 1989, fantastically, and Out Of Tears is still stellar (Ronnie kills on that). Ronnie's licks in the choruses give it that classic Stones twinge that fills their songs in that 1978-1983 window.

The two on BRIDGES... I softened a little bit with Already Over Me after listening to the one live performance of it from Madison Square Garden (Always Suffering is bland at best, except for Keith's guitaring) but they'll never make any playlist.

Laugh... is exceptional. THAT came out of that band then? Of course, so did the dismal Streets Of Love. Just like how the same dude that came up with Sympathy and Brown Sugar wrote Let's Work and Charmed Life. The universe is wider than we think on a daily basis.

On that note, it's nice to have something like Driving Me Too Hard that's got a big of swagger to it and rolls. There's an essence of late 1970s to it for some reason yet also sounds like it could be from BRIDGES. Sure the intro is like Tumbling Dice... it's NOT. It's Keith being Keith.

And, whoever sequenced this album is a genius for putting Tell Me Straight after Driving Me Too Hard. What a one-two gut punch.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 08:32

Quote
ProfessorWolf
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I mean, this tune has been around for at least eight years now. They sure all must have been inspired to try it again and again and even though the result sounds a bit like a textbook Stones tune, everyone of the three main guys demonstrate their role in this band beautifully and I don't think anybody sounds unsatisfied or uninspired.

I think it is true that the songs Keith has written in the past 20 or so years show that his songwriting is getting less diverse. Even though there's many great songs there and surely also a few exeptions (like Substantial Damage), the tendency is clear: A bit mellow, mid-tempo, reflective,...
That might be what sometimes leaves Mick uninspired with Keith's tunes. They've become a bit predictable, even if they have a nice chord structure and are isolatedly seen great songs.

This is a natural process that happens when a songwriter doesn't explore new styles anymore to listen to. We know that Keith has his stuff that he loves but there's just so much inspiration to come from the same tunes and artists. I don't say that one needs to be keeping up with modern music. It could also be getting into Ethiopian Jazz from the 70's or modern Desert Blues like Tinariwen that tickles a songwriter's muse and leads to new diversity in songwriting. Keith just seems to have stopped doing that some time in the 80's or 90's. And when he gives props to new artists, they mostly do styles that he's been into since decades.
I wouldn't blame him for that. I think it has been empirically proven that most people stop discovering new music at a certain age and just stick with what they already know.

No offence but i think Keith just needs to stick to the music he loves, personally for me his music hasn't got tired or boring, Crosseyed Heart was very diverse, perhaps he needs some more of those killer riffs and recognisable intros to gain more adoration from Stones fans, but at the end of the day the man is 80 and i get the impression he's done,
I explained in a post above that Keith has made it near impossible to make a solo album with Steve Jordan.
If CH was Keith's last solo album and his swansong and his contribution to HD and the follow up album his last Stones Studio work he can consider those 60 years writing as good as it gets in this genre, second to none.

i'm not sure i get the logic behind what you mean about jordan being unable to record with the stones and the winos/keith

well maybe if it gets in the way of a stones tour or studio sessions but frankly there not that active as a band anymore large chunks of the year there just doing nothing no tour no recording

why couldn't steve and keith work on solo stuff the eight months out of twelve the stones aren't doing anything?

i've also had a similar thoughts about keith having a stockpile of rejected song ideas from these sessions that could be used for a solo album

but i'm a little more optimistic about us getting more solo stuff from keith eventually

hopefully

Possibly Keith will feel awkward pulling the Stones drummer away for a solo album, conflicting interests, band politics, the dynamic of relationships with the Stones/Winos has changed now concerning Jordan.
I hope I'm wrong though of course would love another solo album from Keith, but unless Mick makes one Keith is unlikely to go solo while he and Mick are getting on well and are close again, Keith's loyal in that way i think.
Remember two of Keith's albums were made out of necessity, during TIC and CH ( Keith started making CH in 2010 ) he and Mick were not working together, with Keith turning 80 in December he's content to ride the last bit of wave with his Glimmer Twin.

The fact that Keith has Mick singing on this track and not himself speaks volumes on how he is prioritising Mick at this stage, maybe Keith considers he's done it all, he doesn't have anything left to prove.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-02 09:01 by keefriffhards.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: November 2, 2023 11:50

Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
ProfessorWolf
Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
MonkeyMan2000
I mean, this tune has been around for at least eight years now. They sure all must have been inspired to try it again and again and even though the result sounds a bit like a textbook Stones tune, everyone of the three main guys demonstrate their role in this band beautifully and I don't think anybody sounds unsatisfied or uninspired.

I think it is true that the songs Keith has written in the past 20 or so years show that his songwriting is getting less diverse. Even though there's many great songs there and surely also a few exeptions (like Substantial Damage), the tendency is clear: A bit mellow, mid-tempo, reflective,...
That might be what sometimes leaves Mick uninspired with Keith's tunes. They've become a bit predictable, even if they have a nice chord structure and are isolatedly seen great songs.

This is a natural process that happens when a songwriter doesn't explore new styles anymore to listen to. We know that Keith has his stuff that he loves but there's just so much inspiration to come from the same tunes and artists. I don't say that one needs to be keeping up with modern music. It could also be getting into Ethiopian Jazz from the 70's or modern Desert Blues like Tinariwen that tickles a songwriter's muse and leads to new diversity in songwriting. Keith just seems to have stopped doing that some time in the 80's or 90's. And when he gives props to new artists, they mostly do styles that he's been into since decades.
I wouldn't blame him for that. I think it has been empirically proven that most people stop discovering new music at a certain age and just stick with what they already know.

No offence but i think Keith just needs to stick to the music he loves, personally for me his music hasn't got tired or boring, Crosseyed Heart was very diverse, perhaps he needs some more of those killer riffs and recognisable intros to gain more adoration from Stones fans, but at the end of the day the man is 80 and i get the impression he's done,
I explained in a post above that Keith has made it near impossible to make a solo album with Steve Jordan.
If CH was Keith's last solo album and his swansong and his contribution to HD and the follow up album his last Stones Studio work he can consider those 60 years writing as good as it gets in this genre, second to none.

i'm not sure i get the logic behind what you mean about jordan being unable to record with the stones and the winos/keith

well maybe if it gets in the way of a stones tour or studio sessions but frankly there not that active as a band anymore large chunks of the year there just doing nothing no tour no recording

why couldn't steve and keith work on solo stuff the eight months out of twelve the stones aren't doing anything?

i've also had a similar thoughts about keith having a stockpile of rejected song ideas from these sessions that could be used for a solo album

but i'm a little more optimistic about us getting more solo stuff from keith eventually

hopefully

Possibly Keith will feel awkward pulling the Stones drummer away for a solo album, conflicting interests, band politics, the dynamic of relationships with the Stones/Winos has changed now concerning Jordan.
I hope I'm wrong though of course would love another solo album from Keith, but unless Mick makes one Keith is unlikely to go solo while he and Mick are getting on well and are close again, Keith's loyal in that way i think.
Remember two of Keith's albums were made out of necessity, during TIC and CH ( Keith started making CH in 2010 ) he and Mick were not working together, with Keith turning 80 in December he's content to ride the last bit of wave with his Glimmer Twin.

The fact that Keith has Mick singing on this track and not himself speaks volumes on how he is prioritising Mick at this stage, maybe Keith considers he's done it all, he doesn't have anything left to prove.

Well, and that's only all too natural, isn't it? The age is of course a major factor if you concentrate whatever physical and creative energy is left on your "main band". Plus, the Winos haven't been a factor since 30 years now and I doubt that Keith would want to have the exhausting job as a bandleader, guitar player and lead singer back at this point. And in the end, what for? Promoting a solo album that would sell even (and likely considerably) lesser than CH already did in today's market?

Of course, the same goes for Mick concerning any solo adventures. In the end, if they're really up for recording solo material = songs not suitable for the Stones, it would be more or less for the fun of it and I can't see why Steve helping Keith in this case would be against any band politics or even constitute a threat to break up the Stones. That ship has sailed long ago.

The fact alone that Mick has welcomed the well-known Keith collaborater Steve as the new Stones drummer is telling enough. To even think that this has happened only under the condition that Steve from now on has to stop working for any Keith solo project is a bit naive, to say the least.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-02 12:12 by retired_dog.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 12:47

Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 2, 2023 13:35

Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

According to Keith, Mick wanted to sing Tell Me Straight, but Keith declined, so maybe the old geezer still got a say after all. I also doubt that Mick insisted on bringing in Steve when Charlie got ill. I suspect that Keith had a hand in that, far more than what they stated publicly. But that's me speculating.

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