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Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 2, 2023 15:09

Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

You have a point there that picking up Jordan changed the band dynamics. But, like I think Retired Dog indicated, that of Jordan taking Charlie's seat was also a kind of gesture from Mick side to have someone Keith is comfortable and familiar with. For such an old dog, famous being very conservative and even stubborn musically for ages, to learn new tricks would have been probably too much. I don't think there is any longer bigger conflict of interests at this stage - you know, like Jordan being "Keith's man" to thread Jagger's leaderdhip, etc. It was best for the Stones, since for the band to roll, a happy, functional Keith is needed. smiling smiley

But that said, I don't see in a theory any reason for Keith not provide solo material with Jordan. I mean, a couple of years ago Mick did that with Charlie and Ronnie. As you for sure recall, Keith said that the songs were "no Stones material", and that Mick needs to release them solo if he wants to release them. Well, if there truely are some unused Keith songs out there that Mick thinks is "not Stones material", that is, something he wants the Stones to release (what else 'Stones material' is but something both Mick and Keith agree on releasing), why wouldn't Keith release that under his own name?

But I think, like Retired Dog and to an extent you also do admit, that the reason why there not might be a new Richards album, is that tank is too empty by now. All energy left is used for the use of the Stones. (Not that Mick is that different - he also seem to direct most of his energy into the Stones activities, unless some sudden touch of muse forcing him to throw a solo song out of his system).

- Doxa



Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-02 15:33 by Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 2, 2023 15:23

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

According to Keith, Mick wanted to sing Tell Me Straight, but Keith declined, so maybe the old geezer still got a say after all. I also doubt that Mick insisted on bringing in Steve when Charlie got ill. I suspect that Keith had a hand in that, far more than what they stated publicly. But that's me speculating.

You might be right in both cases, but then again I don't think the case of Mick's leadership is that of deciding on everything, you know, like being a dictator or an absolute monarch or something. A good leadership contains an ability to make compromises and seeing in where the decision is better to leave on other people...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-02 15:35 by Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 15:26

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

According to Keith, Mick wanted to sing Tell Me Straight, but Keith declined, so maybe the old geezer still got a say after all. I also doubt that Mick insisted on bringing in Steve when Charlie got ill. I suspect that Keith had a hand in that, far more than what they stated publicly. But that's me speculating.

For sure Keith would pick Steve, i just think that all the rest of the musicians onstage are Mick's choice, even the musical guests that appear on stage with the Stones to sing duets etc are predominantly Micks choice.
Hope I'm not sounding too disrespectful when i say Keith is in denail if he still thinks the Stones are his band.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 15:38

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

According to Keith, Mick wanted to sing Tell Me Straight, but Keith declined, so maybe the old geezer still got a say after all. I also doubt that Mick insisted on bringing in Steve when Charlie got ill. I suspect that Keith had a hand in that, far more than what they stated publicly. But that's me speculating.

You might be right in both cases, but then again I don't think the case of Mick's leaderdhip is that of deciding on everything, you know, like being a dictator or an absolute monarch or something. A good leadership contains an ability to make compromises and seeing in where the decision is better to leave on other people...

- Doxa

It only recently dawned on me that this is Micks band now, it has been for decades but i couldn't see it clearly until HD was released.
I have to respect that although disappointed there aren't more Keith tracks on the album.
I'm also proud of Mick for having the energy and focus to take this band into what could be another decade of activity, Mick still has fire in his belly, he still cares enough to keep this band going strong.
I'm impressed, and although much of this album could be a Mick solo album, it's a bloody good one, he still has his mojo, i thought Mick was washed up creatively speaking but no, he's still a genius.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 15:55

Driving Me To Hard is Keith writing about Mick ?

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: November 2, 2023 18:40

Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

You have a point there that picking up Jordan changed the band dynamics. But, like I think Retired Dog indicated, that of Jordan taking Charlie's seat was also a kind of gesture from Mick side to have someone Keith is comfortable and familiar with. For such an old dog, famous being very conservative and even stubborn musically for ages, to learn new tricks would have been probably too much. I don't think there is any longer bigger conflict of interests at this stage - you know, like Jordan being "Keith's man" to thread Jagger's leaderdhip, etc. It was best for the Stones, since for the band to roll, a happy, functional Keith is needed. smiling smiley

But that said, I don't see in a theory any reason for Keith not provide solo material with Jordan. I mean, a couple of years ago Mick did that with Charlie and Ronnie. As you for sure recall, Keith said that the songs were "no Stones material", and that Mick needs to release them solo if he wants to release them. Well, if there truely are some unused Keith songs out there that Mick thinks is "not Stones material", that is, something he wants the Stones to release (what else 'Stones material' is but something both Mick and Keith agree on releasing), why wouldn't Keith release that under his own name?

But I think, like Retired Dog and to an extent you also do admit, that the reason why there not might be a new Richards album, is that tank is too empty by now. All energy left is used for the use of the Stones. (Not that Mick is that different - he also seem to direct most of his energy into the Stones activities, unless some sudden touch of muse forcing him to throw a solo song out of his system).

- Doxa

I still think that picking up Jordan hasn't changed the band dynamics at least YET, as long as Jordan sticks to his role as the drummer of the band. In that regard, I held my breath when in a recent interview documented somewhere here he claimed that he would have produced some of the new material differently - there's a fine line that you better not cross in the Stones, and it would be interesting to see what would happen once Steve tries to team up with Keith and challenge Mick a bit too much... But so far, Keith seems to be overly happy with the album and "the young man" Andrew as a producer and apparently shows no interest in using Steve as a collaborator in a new power game that could indeed break up the Stones.

Furthermore, I think that "all energy left is used for the use of the Stones", as you put it, Doxa, is the key element for HD having turned out as a creative success compared to previous albums. There was no "holding back" of excellent material for solo albums that ruined Stones efforts like VL, no power games, no producer who sided up with either Mick or Keith like Don Was (mostly with Keith, see VL and in particular ABB, usually ending up with Mick losing interest). The focus was on the band, on the Stones, not on the egos of the two principals - and it shows!

When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: keefriffhards ()
Date: November 2, 2023 19:05

Quote
retired_dog
Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

You have a point there that picking up Jordan changed the band dynamics. But, like I think Retired Dog indicated, that of Jordan taking Charlie's seat was also a kind of gesture from Mick side to have someone Keith is comfortable and familiar with. For such an old dog, famous being very conservative and even stubborn musically for ages, to learn new tricks would have been probably too much. I don't think there is any longer bigger conflict of interests at this stage - you know, like Jordan being "Keith's man" to thread Jagger's leaderdhip, etc. It was best for the Stones, since for the band to roll, a happy, functional Keith is needed. smiling smiley

But that said, I don't see in a theory any reason for Keith not provide solo material with Jordan. I mean, a couple of years ago Mick did that with Charlie and Ronnie. As you for sure recall, Keith said that the songs were "no Stones material", and that Mick needs to release them solo if he wants to release them. Well, if there truely are some unused Keith songs out there that Mick thinks is "not Stones material", that is, something he wants the Stones to release (what else 'Stones material' is but something both Mick and Keith agree on releasing), why wouldn't Keith release that under his own name?

But I think, like Retired Dog and to an extent you also do admit, that the reason why there not might be a new Richards album, is that tank is too empty by now. All energy left is used for the use of the Stones. (Not that Mick is that different - he also seem to direct most of his energy into the Stones activities, unless some sudden touch of muse forcing him to throw a solo song out of his system).

- Doxa

I still think that picking up Jordan hasn't changed the band dynamics at least YET, as long as Jordan sticks to his role as the drummer of the band. In that regard, I held my breath when in a recent interview documented somewhere here he claimed that he would have produced some of the new material differently - there's a fine line that you better not cross in the Stones, and it would be interesting to see what would happen once Steve tries to team up with Keith and challenge Mick a bit too much... But so far, Keith seems to be overly happy with the album and "the young man" Andrew as a producer and apparently shows no interest in using Steve as a collaborator in a new power game that could indeed break up the Stones.

Furthermore, I think that "all energy left is used for the use of the Stones", as you put it, Doxa, is the key element for HD having turned out as a creative success compared to previous albums. There was no "holding back" of excellent material for solo albums that ruined Stones efforts like VL, no power games, no producer who sided up with either Mick or Keith like Don Was (mostly with Keith, see VL and in particular ABB, usually ending up with Mick losing interest). The focus was on the band, on the Stones, not on the egos of the two principals - and it shows!

When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

On the contrary Steve Jordan would have done a fantastic job of producing this album, but it's Mick's band so bring in a stranger to the band so we can do what someone else thinks this band should sound like.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: November 2, 2023 19:41

Quote
retired_dog


When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

The Worst, that I recall

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: MelBelli ()
Date: November 2, 2023 19:57

Quote
maumau
Quote
retired_dog


When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

The Worst, that I recall

This Place is Empty!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: November 2, 2023 20:17

Quote
keefriffhards
Quote
retired_dog
Quote
Doxa
Quote
keefriffhards
Fair comments Retired_dog, i see your points, i was just saying why i feel it's unlikely Keith's unused material will see the light of day at this stage, i kind of disagree with you though when it comes to Steve Jordan, he's a Stone now and i just can't see Keith working with him alone long enough to make a whole album at Keiths pace away from the Stones while the Stones remain active touring/ making another unfinished album.
I don't think I'm being nieve, Mick is the commander remember.
The dynamic has changed in the past few decades, Keith works for Mick rather than with Mick. Mick decides what Keith will do and when he does it, from making albums/ tours, what songs will be playing, who plays with the Stones, how many dates they play, backing singers, who produces the albums etc etc.

You have a point there that picking up Jordan changed the band dynamics. But, like I think Retired Dog indicated, that of Jordan taking Charlie's seat was also a kind of gesture from Mick side to have someone Keith is comfortable and familiar with. For such an old dog, famous being very conservative and even stubborn musically for ages, to learn new tricks would have been probably too much. I don't think there is any longer bigger conflict of interests at this stage - you know, like Jordan being "Keith's man" to thread Jagger's leaderdhip, etc. It was best for the Stones, since for the band to roll, a happy, functional Keith is needed. smiling smiley

But that said, I don't see in a theory any reason for Keith not provide solo material with Jordan. I mean, a couple of years ago Mick did that with Charlie and Ronnie. As you for sure recall, Keith said that the songs were "no Stones material", and that Mick needs to release them solo if he wants to release them. Well, if there truely are some unused Keith songs out there that Mick thinks is "not Stones material", that is, something he wants the Stones to release (what else 'Stones material' is but something both Mick and Keith agree on releasing), why wouldn't Keith release that under his own name?

But I think, like Retired Dog and to an extent you also do admit, that the reason why there not might be a new Richards album, is that tank is too empty by now. All energy left is used for the use of the Stones. (Not that Mick is that different - he also seem to direct most of his energy into the Stones activities, unless some sudden touch of muse forcing him to throw a solo song out of his system).

- Doxa

I still think that picking up Jordan hasn't changed the band dynamics at least YET, as long as Jordan sticks to his role as the drummer of the band. In that regard, I held my breath when in a recent interview documented somewhere here he claimed that he would have produced some of the new material differently - there's a fine line that you better not cross in the Stones, and it would be interesting to see what would happen once Steve tries to team up with Keith and challenge Mick a bit too much... But so far, Keith seems to be overly happy with the album and "the young man" Andrew as a producer and apparently shows no interest in using Steve as a collaborator in a new power game that could indeed break up the Stones.

Furthermore, I think that "all energy left is used for the use of the Stones", as you put it, Doxa, is the key element for HD having turned out as a creative success compared to previous albums. There was no "holding back" of excellent material for solo albums that ruined Stones efforts like VL, no power games, no producer who sided up with either Mick or Keith like Don Was (mostly with Keith, see VL and in particular ABB, usually ending up with Mick losing interest). The focus was on the band, on the Stones, not on the egos of the two principals - and it shows!

When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

On the contrary Steve Jordan would have done a fantastic job of producing this album, but it's Mick's band so bring in a stranger to the band so we can do what someone else thinks this band should sound like.

What Steve Jordan as a producer would have done with HD is purely fictional, instead what Andrew Watt actually has done is a wonderful job and that is seemingly the opinion shared by Keith and Mick, whereas this Keith versus Mick thing ("Keith's band - Mick's band") is constantly brought up by you - thankfully Keith and Mick this time cared a shit about that and any destructive power battles and concentrated on the band instead - and it shows.

As I've said above, we've had enough "producer taking sides" adventures in the past with Don Was already and arguably less than satisfactory results so no need to risk that with Steve Jordan again.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: CrosseyedHeart ()
Date: November 3, 2023 00:38

My favorite track.
Could have been on ‘Goats Head Soup’ or ‘It’s Only Rock ‘N Roll.’
The guitars are amazing. Takes me back to those days when I was so infatuated with them in high school. My nickname was “Mr D”!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: November 3, 2023 18:30

Instrumental:
[youtu.be]

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: peoplewitheyes ()
Date: November 7, 2023 13:13

Hey, Hardriffin, is this your work (removing the vox, I mean). Could you do the reverse - extract and give us only the vox?

I absolutely love this track, and in particular, Keith's harmonies with Mick. Just beautiful, and I'd love to hear it acapella.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 7, 2023 13:36

At present, in an emergency and if I had to choose three tracks to listen to before the power fails, it would be Get Close, Depending on You, and Driving Me Too Hard. The rock ballads. The guitars on this just get better and better with more listens - the care and detail and the just right phrasing. To more or less dismiss them as 'Mick's band' - with the apporopriate rictus sneer - is just silly to me, and doesn't stand uo to the scrutiny of what we hear. The three principal players are all over it and at the top of their games on this track, and all the others, really.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: peoplewitheyes ()
Date: November 7, 2023 13:46

Absolutely, MMM, this track is clearly a 'Keith track' - yet it sounds great with Mick singing (his languid phrasing is perfect) and I just love hearing Keith's subtle back ups on so many of the lines.

At first I thought this track was a little 'Stones by numbers' but I realised that it's one of the things they do fabulously (Tumbling Dice, Crazy Mama etc have the same majestic swagger) and on this track they are really on top of it.

Love it!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: November 7, 2023 13:58

Quote
MadMetaphoricalMax
At present, in an emergency and if I had to choose three tracks to listen to before the power fails, it would be Get Close, Depending on You, and Driving Me Too Hard. The rock ballads. The guitars on this just get better and better with more listens - the care and detail and the just right phrasing. To more or less dismiss them as 'Mick's band' - with the apporopriate rictus sneer - is just silly to me, and doesn't stand uo to the scrutiny of what we hear. The three principal players are all over it and at the top of their games on this track, and all the others, really.

Couldn't agree more. Loved the rowdy ones best at first - Bite Your Head Off and Whole Wide World but the more I listen to the album the more I consider these among the best songs they've written for decades. The guitars on Driving Me Too Hard capture the definitive 70s Rolling Stones sound. Vintage stuff.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: goingmad ()
Date: November 7, 2023 15:02

Quote
MelBelli
Quote
maumau
Quote
retired_dog


When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

The Worst, that I recall

This Place is Empty!

Infamy!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Date: November 7, 2023 15:15

Quote
Silver Dagger
Couldn't agree more. Loved the rowdy ones best at first - Bite Your Head Off and Whole Wide World but the more I listen to the album the more I consider these among the best songs they've written for decades. The guitars on Driving Me Too Hard capture the definitive 70s Rolling Stones sound. Vintage stuff.

smileys with beer

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: November 7, 2023 20:39

Quote
goingmad
Quote
MelBelli
Quote
maumau
Quote
retired_dog


When was the last time Mick did backing vocals on a Keith lead vocal tune?

The Worst, that I recall

This Place is Empty!

Infamy!

Infamy? Oh...

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Paddy ()
Date: November 7, 2023 22:48

Woke up with this in my head this morning!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: kovach ()
Date: November 8, 2023 05:53

After repeated listens of the album, this has really emerged as a favorite.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: November 8, 2023 09:50

Quote
kovach
After repeated listens of the album, this has really emerged as a favorite.

From the first listen I knew it would become my favorite. And so it is happening!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: November 11, 2023 22:26

this song is sriously dawning on me
way beyond the fact that I would love keith to sing it himeslf
another gem

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: HardRiffin ()
Date: November 11, 2023 22:47

Quote
maumau
this song is sriously dawning on me
way beyond the fact that I would love keith to sing it himeslf
another gem

smileys with beer

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: rollingrichard ()
Date: November 12, 2023 09:29

Quote
HardRiffin
Quote
maumau
this song is sriously dawning on me
way beyond the fact that I would love keith to sing it himeslf
another gem

smileys with beer

Very well said ! smileys with beer

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: slew ()
Date: November 15, 2023 05:14

I love this song I was listening to it on the way home tonight and it sounds like the whole band is really having fun. It's infectious. I love the whole album I think they really have it a home run!

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: November 15, 2023 15:37

Keith forgot he came up with this until we went, Keith, this is really nice. We didn’t have a good take with Charlie on it so I suggested we redo the song at Henson in LA. It has a traditional Stones feel. People like that.
- Mick Jagger, c. August 2023

I laughed when I read this quote from the new album thread. The creator Keith - now verified that it initially was his song - might have forgotten the tune, but we here at IORR surely not, since spotting the title from 2015 sessions...grinning smiley

And then that casual remark about it having 'traditional Stones feel': people like that. Not he or them being particularly excited by it, but us, the fans... He sounds like them throwing a bone there, knowing the easiness to please people with that sort of retro-sounding stuff. Classical Mick...

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-11-15 15:38 by Doxa.

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: KeithNacho ()
Date: November 16, 2023 00:18

Beautiful and fantastic. Great great song

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: jp.M ()
Date: November 24, 2023 10:59

Maybe not the best but my favorite after a month..

Re: Driving Me Too Hard - Track Talk
Posted by: drwatts ()
Date: November 26, 2023 00:17

The Riffmaster is killin' me on this one. Chills and goosebumps.

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