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Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: March 3, 2023 21:57

It is also interesting that I think it was when George Harrison died, Keith said something to the effect that he had a special connection to him, since he had a similar role in the band like George had. Does anyone recall the comment?

Anyway, to me it sounded odd since I had used to see The Stones as a Mick and Keith show, so Keith's role sounded more like Lennon or Cartney's. But now to think of it, it could be that Keith saw both Mick and Brian as sort of big brothers to him. And despite himself getting such a central and important role within the band, he kept viewing both Mick and Brian with an awe, and him probably feeling a bit secondary, as strange is to think it now. I mean, usually it is the first impression that matters to people no matter what happens afterwards.

Keith's pretty complex guy - and very interesting human being - if we we forget his superman image.

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-03 22:00 by Doxa.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: Ps37 ()
Date: March 3, 2023 22:04

Quote
Doxa
It is also interesting that I think it was when George Harrison died, Keith said something to the effect that he had a special connection to him, since he had a similar role in the band like George had. Does anyone recall the comment?

Anyway, to me it sounded odd since I had used to see The Stones as a Mick and Keith show, so Keith's role sounded more like Lennon or Cartney's. But now to think of it, it could be that Keith saw both Mick and Brian as sort of big brothers to him. And despite himself getting such a central and important role within the band, he kept viewing both Mick and Brian with an awe, and him probably feeling a bit secondary, as strange is to think it now. I mean, usually it is the first impression that matters to people no matter what happens afterwards.

Keith's pretty complex guy - and very interesting human being - if we we forget his superman image.

- Doxa

I do recall that comment because at the time I remember thinking that Keith was basically quoting (almost verbatim) what George had said about Brian.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: March 3, 2023 22:32

And it regards to Brian, and no matter how much his glamour is disappeared and some people not respecting his musical contributions or belittlening them (usual habits with 'modern' Stones fans who probably were not even born when he died), is that seemingly as a musician Brian made a huge impression to anyone he was associated with. You know, at the time he still had his powers, before the downhill. Mick and Keith were the ones witnessing it pretty early, and I guess it was painful for them to see him going downhill, knowing what he was capable of. They didn't keep him in the band for just charity reasons or even for image, no matter how unloyal or even @#$%& he was. They fired him when there were was not any other option. But Brian would charm people like The Beatles guys, Dylan, Hendrix...

Mick and Keith will not probably ever admit directly, but I am pretty sure that Brian blew their minds off, and gave them a sort of model what true musicianship is all about.

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-03 22:34 by Doxa.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: March 4, 2023 14:01

Quote
Doxa
Quote
retired_dog
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Doxa
Interesting thoughts here in regard to Brian vs. George and their role in their bands. And I don't see any real disagreements between what Ps37 and 24FPS say. Both right.

Yeah, the dynamics within the bands vary. Some similarities, but also some important differences. I think initially Keith's role was more closely to George's. It was Brian and Mick that had a thing over leadership. They were the Big Boys. The band was Brian's baby for sure, but Mick as a singer and a natural frontman, challenged him, willingly or non-willingly, just right from the beginning. If Brian was the one who worked his ass off to get the band going, and believed in it, and Mick more like keeping an eye on what was going on (having other options in mind), letting Brian do the dirty work, but ready to take action if needed. That is, if the band actually took off and offered him like a real career opportunity. Once that took place, he was determinate and ambitious, and there probably haven't been a band decidion without his strong opinion on it.

Keith was Mick's pal, and that friendship guaranteed his membership in the band. Although, like Keith's mother has recalled, Keith was so initually so insecure that he went to rehearsals despite being sick - he was worried if he would be replaced. Keith was like George - just happy to play a guitar in the band (and like George, being the youngest).

However, Keith got friends with Brian and soon he was like the important pawn in order to claim a leadership: the band was lead by the member who was able to team up with Keith (it looks like there were never a strong bond between Mick and Brian. There always was a sort of tension, competition and ego-play between the two). Sometimes the oddman out was Mick, but, of course, in the end it was Brian. When Oldham pushed Mick and Keith to write songs, and the band's career was based on Jagger/Richards originals, Brian's fate was sealed and dreams on leadership were gone. Keith's real leadership, like his public name and profile, next to Mick's, arose by his song-writing, as he was their main song-writer.

So, if you like, by, say, 1966 Mick and Keith were like the John and Paul of the band, The Big Boys, while Brian was doomed to act the George role of the band.

- Doxa

By 1966? No. Not in the eye of the public. Even in 1969, a large portion of the fanbase doubted that they could carry on without Brian. A situation comparable only to 1977 when Keith's future as a Stone was very doubtful. Brian's decay between 1967 to his death in 1969 wasn't very visible at the time. There were (almost) no live shows, at NME 1968 Brian still looked (and reportedly sounded) great, and Rock'n'Roll Circus was kept in the can until 1996. Brian was huge amongst fans until the very end.

Very true. What I meant by that year is that supposedly Keith had by then achieved with Mick a kind of de facto leadership in the band, since the band was so much relying on his song-writers skills. But the public eye surely didn't see that yet then. It took years for Keith to achieve that kind of public status (for his role) Brian had probably all the way until his departure and death. That's why in the eye of public Brian never was a real 'George' in his band. I mean, with The Beatles John and Paul were straight from the beginning recognized as the most important members of the band, and George with Ringo as seconds fiddle players. Brian was not, but the most famous and distinguished member in the band after Mick. That of seeing him 'George' is something we can say afterwards (since it was true, I think, behind the curtains). In a public eye, Brian was the 'Keith' of the sixties, a real Rolling Stone, a wonderful musician, a soul of the band, and an idol the fans associated themselves with.

- Doxa

Perfectly said, Doxa. I think what we have here is a classic "divergence" between Brian's undiminished public status and his decreasing role in the creative powerhouse of the band, creativity of course meant in terms of songwriting and musical contribution/arranging skills here. He never was a songwriter, that was obvious for everyone who could read the credits on the record labels and sleeves to see, but the fact that his musicial contributions to the actual recordings gradually decreased to almost "O" after Satanic Majesties was a bit tougher to detect!

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: March 5, 2023 01:21

Mick and Keith will not probably ever admit directly, but I am pretty sure that Brian blew their minds off, and gave them a sort of model what true musicianship is all about.

- Doxa[/quote]

Yes, in the beginning. Then they surpassed him. Keith even took up some slide. It must have been very frustrating to know what Brian was capable of, and then not doing it. He betrayed Keith and Brian's early vision of the Stones being a guitar weaving band. They could have replaced him a couple years earlier and we really would have only missed No Expectations, Brian's swan song.

Brian's example was what he did, which is talent. He had a natural talent, but let it rot. Adding exotic instruments even petered out in the end. It's too bad Brian had to be the canary in the coal mine for drugs and rock stars. He obviously needed rehab and psychological help. What he did leave behind is pure treasure.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: March 6, 2023 07:39

I often wonder what that Brian-Hendrix material might have sounded like……

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 6, 2023 13:01

Quote
24FPS
They could have replaced him a couple years earlier and we really would have only missed No Expectations, Brian's swan song.

Silly.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 6, 2023 13:31

Quote
VoodooLounge13
I often wonder what that Brian-Hendrix material might have sounded like……

A bluesy setting with Brian playing harmonica would probably have been the best fit. An instrument Brian was able to properly solo on. Otherwise, I think Brian and his playing style, even on slide, would kind of get in the way of or restrict a free flowing Hendrix.

This is why, even in 1968, The Rolling Stones were still Brian's imperfect musical home. Their music was such that it could incorporate his non blues based ideas and tastes. They still of course had that shared musical connection and common ground when it came to playing blues based music. And the important thing also being that they were a band moving towards the magic moments rather than an individual, ala Hendrix, driving a group of musicians to those moments.


Hendrix:




The Rolling Stones:






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-06 13:34 by His Majesty.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: March 6, 2023 16:57

Brian could have played synthesizer with Hendrix

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 6, 2023 17:17

Erk.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: paulspendel ()
Date: March 6, 2023 17:57

Unfortunately Brian hardly had any musical future left, I guess. Drugs Squad officer Norman Pilcher had a warrant ready for a drugs raid at Cotchford, to be executed August 1969. He was allowed to carry this out outside his London patch because the drugs came from London. That was the rule. This raid would have meant a long prison sentence, given the previous cases. That's what Scotland Yard was after. The final blow. Of course, eventually, Brian would have left prison, but probably without any means. Taking up a new musical career from that low point is quite a challenge, I guess.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-06 17:58 by paulspendel.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: March 6, 2023 22:41

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
24FPS
They could have replaced him a couple years earlier and we really would have only missed No Expectations, Brian's swan song.

Silly.

Really? Ruby Tuesday was recorded in 1966. 2000 Light Years from Home was the summer of '67. Other than No Expectations what major contribution did Brian make to the Rolling Stones' songs the last two years of his life? SFM had a couple strokes on sitar, but Dave Mason plays another indian instrument, the shehnai, and it's hard to differentiate the two.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: March 7, 2023 15:14

Thinking the 'Brian leaves two years earlier' premise through logically and as a fan of the music recorded in those two years as it is...

Brian left in June 1969, but was last in the studio with them in May 1969. Back tracking that to happen two years earlier means we would have We Love You, the backing track being recorded circa 19th May 1967, but miss out on his nice soprano sax on Dandelion, recorded in June 1967. We'd miss out on almost all, if not all, of his contributions to Their Satanic Majesties Request, Child of the Moon, Beggars Banquet, Still A Fool, and two tracks on Let It Bleed.

I would definitely miss most of those and would be without some of my favourite Rolling Stones recordings as we know them.

I have no problem differentiating between the tanpura and a shehnai.

But, there is only what happened and I am glad we have those circa June 1967 - May 1969 recordings with Brian on them. I actually long for more recordings from that period to become available.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2023-03-07 15:17 by His Majesty.

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: March 7, 2023 20:35

Quote
His Majesty


But, there is only what happened and I am glad we have those circa June 1967 - May 1969 recordings with Brian on them. I actually long for more recordings from that period to become available.

I would too. I always want to hear unreleased Brian cuts. Unfortunately he wasn't recording much noticeable guitar at this point. (Other than the obvious No Expectations, which seemed to shock the band that he could still pull it off).

Re: Happy Birthday Brian
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: March 7, 2023 21:02

Quote
24FPS
Quote
His Majesty


But, there is only what happened and I am glad we have those circa June 1967 - May 1969 recordings with Brian on them. I actually long for more recordings from that period to become available.

I would too. I always want to hear unreleased Brian cuts. Unfortunately he wasn't recording much noticeable guitar at this point. (Other than the obvious No Expectations, which seemed to shock the band that he could still pull it off).
There are the photos of him playing guitar during the Let it Bleed Sessions.Maybe he jammed with Ry Cooder on slide

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