On the Songfacts website it quotes from an interview Gene Clark had in 1983 where he said “The melody and lyrics I wrote myself in a hotel room with Brian Jones in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania.Asked if Brian Jones wanted a credit,Clark said,”Hedidn’t care.It just came out of a conversation “.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-18 17:19 by Taylor1.

Inspired by a conversation with Brian, written by Gene...

Gene quotes posted by a member of the Steve Hoffman forum:

"But Brian was always real friendly. So he and I and Michael started hanging out together. I remember we were up in the hotel room. We ordered dinner one night and we were all sitting there eating a coupla steaks, talking and having a couple of scotches, and we started talking about William Burroughs. And somehow I just got this idea - it came into my mind - I don't know how the conversation led to it or anything like that, but all I know is that I started scribbling down the poetry, y'know. And Brian said 'what're you doing?' And I said 'this' [he mimes showing him], and he looks at it and he reads a little bit of it, and he says 'that's pretty good, you ought to work on that!' And then, I think... I worked on it kinda in private for - gosh, maybe about two weeks or something - almost every night in the hotel or something like that.... But the original idea came, of course, out of Brian Jones, but he didn't know it. He never even got to know it. At the time he probably didn't halfway remember having the conversation, you know what I'm saying...?'"

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"I had an idea for some lyrics and wrote them on a piece of paper during the conversation with Brian. Later on I found them in my jacket pocket on the tour bus. I took my guitar and started making up a melody for it. I pretty much completed the song and played it for McGuinn and Crosby, and they really liked it. There were a lot of images I got from thinking and remembering things we'd done on the English tour. Actually, I started the thing before we got to England, and finished it when we got back. We were listening to a lot of Coltrane and Shankar. I felt that the arrangement idea McGuinn came up with alone deserved co-writer credit on it. Crosby, as well, came up with some of the lyrics. I kinda felt that all three of us wrote the song."

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"I wrote all the words (to Eight Miles High) except for one line that David wrote (Rain grey town), and then Roger arranged it, basically, so I had to part something with those guys. I decided that I wasn't going to get a single out of this deal, because I'd already written so many songs with this group that they're gonna grab up the singles for their own stuff, you know so I split it with them so I could get a single. That and they really did help me write it, too. But one of the problems we had by the release of the second album was the animosity growing amongst the group. Especially about me, because I was making a lot more money than anybody else from the royalties."

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That's exactly the point. Everything else is arrangement or, let's say, embellishment.

And this is how every judge in a copyright claim would decide. Strictly speaking, legalities are legalities, everything else is "just" fairness amongst band members.

ROCKMAN

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retired_dog

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That's exactly the point. Everything else is arrangement or, let's say, embellishment.

And this is how every judge in a copyright claim would decide. Strictly speaking, legalities are legalities, everything else is "just" fairness amongst band members.

Maybe... we don't know what most songs were like when presented, or if they were presented at all and not something that was written after the band had jammed on a basic idea etc.

Also, there's many ways and opportunities for musical ideas from the band and supporting musicians to be incorporated in to the eventual main vocal melodies.

Is/was it enough for credit to be given? That's another thing. Mick and Keith were and are rather obviously the main well spring for the songs lyrics and main vocal melodies.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-01-24 13:52 by His Majesty.

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retired_dog

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DandelionPowderman
Keep in mind that we never would have heard Brian’s slide guitar if Keith hadn't written the music.

That's exactly the point. Everything else is arrangement or, let's say, embellishment.

And this is how every judge in a copyright claim would decide. Strictly speaking, legalities are legalities, everything else is "just" fairness amongst band members.

Exactamente. And what goes 'writing' that basically means the basic melody and chords on one hand and the lyrics on the other. Something one basically could sing and accompany with a acoustic guitar or a piano. For example, had Mick and Keith not had that special arrangement of 'Jagger/Richards', in song credits of "Sympathy For the Devil" should only read "Mick Jagger". In rock music, and with Keith in particular, the credited 'music' element could totally consist of creating a central riff or a chord consequence the song is based on. Is that right way to judge how individuals are contributing in the creative process of a song to end up sounding like it does in a final recording, is a (moral) dispute of its own, but in legal terms it is what is. If we go to a court, that what the judge will say us.

All the rest is, like you say, up to fairness among band members and more spefically up to them who are in a charge and who control the actual credition process (copyrighting the songs). In the case of the Stones, it is totally in the hands of Mick and Keith to estimate, judge and decide who might 'earn' a credition in a recording by the Rolling Stones.

We have had here at IORR countless times discussions and even quarrels about the credition policy of the Stones. Should or not someone - mostly Taylor, Brian or Bill - earn a credition to Jagger/Richards songs. Many times it is a question of some distinctive contribution affecting the whole soundscape of a song - a while ago in his thread I just made such a suggestion in regard Taylor's contribution in "Winter" - and sometimes even about the very constituents of a song, that of contributing to the basic melody or central riff of it (this is much harder to prove, and is mostly speculation, since we really do not know much about the songs' origin - just some-out-takes and people's words). I think most of it just moral talk in terms of imaginative fair world. I think both sides argue in terms of it: those asking more 'liberal' credition policy and those being totally against it and defending Mick and Keith's sole right to the credits (so in their eyes Mick and Keith are always right and thereby fair in their choices in crediting people or not). In a plain reality the thoughts and arguments of both sides mean next to nothing: Mick and Keith control the credition, and since it is totally in their hands, it is always arbitrary by principle.

An example of such arbitrary decision. Andrew Oldham changed a word "Times" to "Tears" and got a credition for "As Tears Go By". It would be interesting to know how the process went. Most likely it was a decision among pals. But not necessary. Namely, at the time I suppose Andrew was as much controlling, if more, the copyright and thereby the credition process as Mick and Keith would do, so it could be very well that he might have added himself to credits even without Mick and Keith's approval. (Actually it would be interesting to know when that replacement of "Times" with "Tears" took place. We have the old demo, in which Mick sings 'As Times Go By'. Could it be that Andrew suggesting the change took place when Marianne was recording it?)

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-01 14:07 by Doxa.

And that highlights how absurd popular music writing credits can be. One word and an agreement between 3 people = a credit.

A defining riff which helps make a song memorable and a huge hit = no credit... depending on who is calling the shots and/or which band you are in.

And fan/listener perception... The Satisfaction riff is perceived as song writing by some because Keith did it. The Last Time riff is perceived as song writing... when they think it's Keith. But it was by Brian, 'but I thought he can't write music? Ah, it's arranging.'

.. and etc etc, and blah blah blah.

A nice little glimpse into The Glimmers' writing process in 1985, when we all thought they didn't really communicate.

This process is essential for other band members to shine later with their embellishments. This is the "dirty work" (pun intended ). And, there is no riff in here - they're working on the melody and lyrics that feel good to sing to the chords.

A nice little touching moment, imo.

The song didn't make it, though





[www.youtube.com]

I do think that HM has a good point here. However, we cannot deny that the glimmers did most of the songwriting. We also cannot deny that the glimmers took full advantage of it.

A note: I had forgotten to put the name of the song of my example of pure 'Jagger' song above. Added now and it is "Sympathy For The Devil".

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-01 14:11 by Doxa.

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DandelionPowderman

This process is essential for other band members to shine later with their embellishments.

The shining sometimes coming before, when a song was a rough idea and presented as such, eg, a partial verse. The main writing coming after or during the process involving other people's musical input.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-01 14:32 by His Majesty.

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Doxa
A note: I had forgotten to put the name of the song of my example of pure 'Jagger' song above. Added now and it is "Sympathy For The Devil".

- Doxa

You wrote a while ago that Taylor should deserve writing credits for "Winter" I merely would give him writing credits for Time Waits For No One; the repetitive ascending distinctive melody line Taylor played melts with the song more then just a nice improvisation.

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TheflyingDutchman

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Doxa
A note: I had forgotten to put the name of the song of my example of pure 'Jagger' song above. Added now and it is "Sympathy For The Devil".

- Doxa

You wrote a while ago that Taylor should deserve writing credits for "Winter" I merely would give him writing credits for Time Waits For No One; the repetitive ascending distinctive melody line Taylor played melts with the song more then just a nice improvisation.

Well, my point was that Taylor's guitar paints the whole soundscape so distinctively that it contributes to the whole song so effectively that in my book - or if I be Jagger - I would give him a credit. Technically, if a song is a basic singing melody (with the basic chords) plus lyrics that doesn't qualify I know. But "Winter" is not a typical song in that sense. It is more like a feeling. What Taylor writes with his melodic guitar is as important as Jagger's (incredible) vocals.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-01 15:27 by Doxa.

It is obviously his song and the credit should rightfully carry his name, but something more than just Mick writing happened here.

The fuzz guitar is marvellous. I don't know why they only used it this time and for just a handful of bars. I know Keith hates fuzzed guitars.

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JJHMick
The fuzz guitar is marvellous. I don't know why they only used it this time and for just a handful of bars. I know Keith hates fuzzed guitars.

Evidently not given he used the effect for about 3 years.

What’s the name of that former popular rock band again? They stole a majority of songs, rearranged them and gave all the credits to themselves …
Ah, I remember. Led Zeppelin …


I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

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Doxa
A note: I had forgotten to put the name of the song of my example of pure 'Jagger' song above. Added now and it is "Sympathy For The Devil".

- Doxa

Could the idea of turning Sympathy from the folkrock song it started out as into the samba album version came from Brian, since he was experimenting with different types of percussion and beats on Satanic Majesties and with the Pipes of Pan

Brian Jones was a highly creative person and musician.

He created a band called the Rolling Stones for example.

Then the 'two is company, three's a crowd' scene led to his creativity being unecessary and his being obsolescent - in a guitar band.

The guitar band only needed one maestro - until they needed to tour again ....


We all wish that he would have survived to find a home for his genius - on earth.

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His Majesty
It is obviously his song and the credit should rightfully carry his name, but something more than just Mick writing happened here.

How could anyone dare to say that, despite personal issues, that the Rolling Stones didn't create their music as a team. Just listen to the three versions HM gave us here. They were all devoted to make the best possible songs and fully open to eachothers input. Another way would not have worked. As you say HM, "something more happened here". Chemistry

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Yes. Chemistry indeed.

...

The writing credits are probably mostly spot on, but I still think most of the songs, just the melody and lyrics, are also as they are due to being put through the collective Rolling Stones recording process.

Even songs we see and hear through varying stages come out differently to how they were presented. Sympathy is presented mostly complete, but the melody is not fully defined, the lyrics change, the tempo changes etc. The collective process of recording and arranging changes the song itself.

Mick is still the writer, the creative guardian of the song if you like, but the song is undeniably altered due to the collective recording process. This process was needed to complete and define the song fully.

Kudos to Witness for this 'Stones Collective' way of defining the band years ago for my benefit.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2022-02-02 16:01 by His Majesty.

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His Majesty
Yes. Chemistry indeed.

...

The writing credits are probably mostly spot on, but I still think most of the songs, just the melody and lyrics, are also as they are due to being put through the collective Rolling Stones recording process.

Even songs we see and hear through varying stages come out differently to how they were presented. Sympathy is presented mostly complete, but the melody is not fully defined, the lyrics change, the tempo changes etc. The collective process of recording and arranging changes the song itself.

Mick is still the writer, the creative guardian of the song if you like, but the song is undeniably altered due to the collective recording process. This process was needed to complete and define the song fully.

Kudos to Witness for this 'Stones Collective' way of defining the band years ago for my benefit.

But isn't it always like that in a band, unless the writer(s) dictate what the others should play?

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DandelionPowderman

But isn't it always like that in a band, unless the writer(s) dictate what the others should play?

No. There's loads of ways. The dictating of parts is not necessarily needed for a song to stay the same.