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Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Roll73 ()
Date: October 6, 2021 16:23

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dennycranium
Quote
flilflam
All I hear from Jordan is bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and bang. Few fills and change of tone when the mood of the song changes. Mainly noise. But, maybe he will get better.

The new drummer should be auditioned and he should be someone from the UK. Many guitarists were auditioned when Mick Taylor left the band. Why not do the same for the drummer ?

I don't think there was time to audition several drummers. As far as it being someone from the UK? I dunno.
I think the concern rightfully was: WHO can mesh well with Keith? With Darryl? With Mick?
The ONLY person that could fit the bill was SJ. He had "that thing" with Keith- a look back and forth, a riff, or a beat and they were off. Charlie recommended SJ to Keith in the mid-80's for Hail Hail Rock and Roll.
SJ and KR have written songs together, produced albums together and more importantly- they've TOURED together.

I think SJ reveres the band, the songs and the legacy of Charlie Watts.
Revering that legacy would not include copying Charlie, exactly, beat for beat.
When Darryl first started rehearsing and playing with the band, Mick would stop him and ask Darryl what he was playing?
Darryl would reply: That's how Bill does it.
Mick told him: Don't do that, play it your way.
So, originality was encouraged by Mick for Darryl. I can only imagine it was the same for SJ.

When I first heard the youtube videos I noticed the differences for songs I especially liked.
Now, for songs I don't like as much? SJ breathed new life into them, for me anyways.
Midnight Rambler, and especially Living In A Ghost Town. (Surprise)
Tumbling Dice is pretty much exactly like Charlie.
In 2018, some of us were noticing that certain songs were slower in tempo?
I noticed. Now, this is NOT a criticism of CW's playing, it's an observation.
Tempo, for me, is so important. Done right and the song takes flight and levitates.
Too slow? It just plods along, especially for numbers like JJF or Start Me Up. Some nights they just sounded lazy, tempo wise.
Now, I am fond of SJ.
I was at a X-pensive Winos show in Detroit in 1993.
At the end of the show, SJ threw his drumsticks into the crowd.
Well, another millimeter or two and I would have lost an eye.
When I got struck with his stick, I started bleeding, quite a lot.
Somehow, security got me on stage.
SJ checked in with me to make sure I was OK. He stayed for a minute or two, until the medics arrived.
After the medics patched me up, security came out and got my contact information.
The venue sent me a fax with a note from SJ that said he was glad I was ok.
Hopefully, I'll get my drumstick in Detroit this year.

Give SJ a chance, Charlie played with the band for over 50 years.
To expect Steve to be perfect after a few weeks of rehearsal isn't realistic.

Go see them if you can.
I was crushed when I heard about Charlie. I told my spouse that we'd never the "our" Rolling Stones perform, live again.
I wasn't going to go to another show. While I didn't think the band should stop, it wasn't "my Rolling Stones" anymore.
After a while I realized I was gatekeeping. I don't get to decide when or how the band keeps playing.
Then, I remembered that Charlie had asked SJ to sit in for him.
Good enough for Charlie? Good enough for me.
Right now, I think our band needs US just as much as we need them.
The Rolling Stones have been the soundtrack to my life. They've been there for me, I'll be there for them.

Nice post! Well said - and I agree totally that SJ is 100% the man for the job, for all those reasons. I also think that part of the invigoration we're seeing might be due specifically to the relationship Steve and Keith have. From numerous interviews etc Keith has spoken about how the dynamic in the Winos was very different to the Stones in so much as they would challenge him in ways he didn't get so much in the Stones, which maybe drove him to 'apply himself' more on-stage?

And - as per that very interesting scene in the 'Under the influence' documentary. Steve was the one who gave Keith that push when he was talking about retiring. Maybe some of that dynamic is still present and partly responsible for what we're now seeing.

Whatever the reasons, it's great to see them playing through this heartbreaking period with such joy, passion, respect for Charlie - and for the fans, I just hope they all stay healthy enough to keep going a bit longer and make it over to Europe!

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 6, 2021 16:36

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DandelionPowderman
Quote
MisterDDDD
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DandelionPowderman
He's been excellent from the get-go, imo.

Absolutely.

Man, did they pick the right guy for a near impossible situation.
Keith deserves a lot of praise as well for how well this is working.
It's clear the extra time spent rehearsing with him prior to reg rehearsals has really paid off.

That is so true. It's a joy listening to the videos from the first three shows.

Compare the version of Let's Spend The Night Together they're doing now to the one on Honk, for instance. They're on a roll thumbs up

I especially like the way to do their old 60's stuff - "Let's Spend The Night together", "19th Nervous Breakdown", "Paint It Black" - that most likely is pretty much to do with Jordan. I think they have had problems in the past approaching that kind of material from their youth, like lacking a needed energy, attitude or something (having matured too much from their wild, rebellous, but a bit amateurish days?). In 1981/82 they managed marvelously, since they didn't even try to imitate their old selves (yet) but played those songs - such as "Under My Thumb" and "Let's Spend The Night Together" - with their then recent, matured sound. But from 1989 on, when the idea was to recreate the originals, there seemed to be problems with that early stuff me thinks.

No way I would blame Charlie - or only him - for that - he is the invator there and he can play 'his' stuff as he pleases - but I think having Jordan now with fresh ears and 'true fan' attitude towards that material, they now interestingly seem to connect better with that stuff (if the idea is to recreate some spark of the originals). Jordan seemingly is the inspiring dynamo there - channeling young Charlie probably better than Charlie himself was capable of/ wanting to. The rest are reacting to that. The thing is that in many of those early songs Charlie originally didn't play according to his 'swinging' style that later became his signature, but more aggressively, straight-forwardly. Probably that early stuff sounded later too primitive or something for Charlie's cultivated style and taste.

Would really love to hear what Jordan would do to "Get Off of My Cloud"...

- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-06 16:44 by Doxa.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: RaiseTheKnife ()
Date: October 6, 2021 16:48

It's a bit distasteful to compare Charlie's drumming at 78 years old with Steve's drumming and say things like "Steve brings so much energy to the band!". Charlie wasn't at his best ever during the last few years but he still did his best to keep up. I will always love the sound Charlie brought to the Stones much more than anything else.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: bitusa2012 ()
Date: October 6, 2021 16:57

I agree with the OP. The band do sound reinvigorated to me.

Rod

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: MisterDDDD ()
Date: October 6, 2021 16:58

Quote
RaiseTheKnife
It's a bit distasteful to compare Charlie's drumming at 78 years old with Steve's drumming and say things like "Steve brings so much energy to the band!". Charlie wasn't at his best ever during the last few years but he still did his best to keep up. I will always love the sound Charlie brought to the Stones much more than anything else.

Everyone will.

Has little to do with age or drumming skills/styles for me, nor does it diminish Charlie or his playing in any way to appreciate what Steve has brought to the table. It's about the band having to react to someone new... and the renewed energy/drive they have had as a result.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 6, 2021 17:07

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
MisterDDDD
Quote
DandelionPowderman
He's been excellent from the get-go, imo.

Absolutely.

Man, did they pick the right guy for a near impossible situation.
Keith deserves a lot of praise as well for how well this is working.
It's clear the extra time spent rehearsing with him prior to reg rehearsals has really paid off.

That is so true. It's a joy listening to the videos from the first three shows.

Compare the version of Let's Spend The Night Together they're doing now to the one on Honk, for instance. They're on a roll thumbs up

I especially like the way to do their old 60's stuff - "Let's Spend The Night together", "19th Nervous Breakdown", "Paint It Black" - that most likely is pretty much to do with Jordan. I think they have had problems in the past approaching that kind of material from their youth, like lacking a needed energy, attitude or something (having matured too much from their wild, rebellous, but a bit amateurish days?). In 1981/82 they managed marvelously, since they didn't even try to imitate their old selves (yet) but played those songs - such as "Under My Thumb" and "Let's Spend The Night Together" - with their then recent, matured sound. But from 1989 on, when the idea was to recreate the originals, there seemed to be problems with that early stuff me thinks.

No way I would blame Charlie - or only him - for that - he is the invator there and he can play 'his' stuff as he pleases - but I think having Jordan now with fresh ears and 'true fan' attitude towards that material, they now interestingly seem to connect better with that stuff (if the idea is to recreate some spark of the originals). Jordan seemingly is the inspiring dynamo there - channeling young Charlie probably better than Charlie himself was capable of/ wanting to. The rest are reacting to that. The thing is that in many of those early songs Charlie originally didn't play according to his 'swinging' style that later became his signature, but more aggressively, straight-forwardly. Probably that early stuff sounded later too primitive or something for Charlie's cultivated style and taste.

Would really love to hear what Jordan would do to "Get Off of My Cloud"...

- Doxa

This is the post that gives me the informative input and approach.

But do you, Doxa, think this more aggressively drumming from Charlie apply to all their early material or rather and most of all their marvellous noisy single A-sides, but (?) maybe(?) less to their R&B material?



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-06 17:14 by Witness.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: October 6, 2021 17:50

Quote
Witness



But do you, Doxa, think this more aggressively drumming from Charlie apply to all their early material or rather and most of all their marvellous noisy single A-sides, but (?) maybe(?) less to their R&B material?

This is a good question and one that actually needs more reflection and a lot of listening from a new perspective (although mostly that stuff I know by heart...)

But a quick and hasty answer. No, I don't think it applies to all of their material from the early days at all. Especially in the early R&B material Charlie's signature jazz-influenced sound and minimalist backbeat is already there ("roll", "swing" if you like). But to me it looks like that especially in those "marvellous noisy single A-sides", as you aptly put it, they were looking for something extra, something for the single to stand out, to make those 'statements' played on a radio as fascinating as possible and on which their career back then totally based on (and I think they didn't put so much effort and creative juice on every cut as they did to single A-sides). And they were pretty experimental by heart back then (since, bloody hell, there wasn't any 'Rolling Stones signature sound' yet they should imitate). So Charlie's drums was one of the 'tricks' to do something novel (like, say, Keith's fuzz guitar in "Satisfaction" or Brian's sitar in "Paint It Black", etc) - to offer a new, exciting beat for people to dance to and everything. Now to look at those big singles from those days: "Satisfaction", "Get Off of My Cloud", "19th Nervous Breakdown", "Paint It Black", "Have You Seen Your Mother", "Let's Spend The Night Together", even "We Love You" still... All of them have a damn loud, aggressive drum track and each of them is played differently... In many cases it was 'trial and error' I think...

But like I said, that was just a hasty reply. This needs to be reflected further... (on a different thread I suppose)

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-06 18:04 by Doxa.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Witness ()
Date: October 6, 2021 18:02

Thank you, Doxa, for your rich answer! So inspiring to read once again!

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: snoopy2 ()
Date: October 6, 2021 18:09

I didn't read thru the entire thread, so this may have been said before, but my gut feeling is the renewed energy (I can't stop thinking and buzzing about Pittsburgh show) is much related to Charlie's death grounding everyone a bit about their own mortality (even with age we still can be reminded) and the incredible run they've had (and still having) and they're realizing every show truly could be the last and they are rocking and rolling and having a ton of fun, it shows..

As for Steve, I'm thinking no matter which drummer sat in someone would be saying how it wasn't Charlie. He looks like he's having a blast as well and works for me!

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: October 6, 2021 23:17

After seeing them in Pittsburg, I think the Stones still play very well live. Mick is really amazing. Keith and Ron focus on playing. Steve is great. I don't know if Jordan is the reason. The band seemed super happy to be there and it shows in the music.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: October 7, 2021 01:57

Steve might be doing some reinvigorating - as he himself might be getting reinvigorated.

But I think the extent to which new life is in evidence is because of the guitarists - of whom especially Keith - and Mick having increased Mojo quotients - making every minute count.

p.s. I do not consider the three remaining Stones a 'band' - or their extended and extensive 'family' of musicians.
But it's great to see those three giving it their best.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: retired_dog ()
Date: October 7, 2021 02:10

Quote
Doxa
Quote
Witness



But do you, Doxa, think this more aggressively drumming from Charlie apply to all their early material or rather and most of all their marvellous noisy single A-sides, but (?) maybe(?) less to their R&B material?

This is a good question and one that actually needs more reflection and a lot of listening from a new perspective (although mostly that stuff I know by heart...)

But a quick and hasty answer. No, I don't think it applies to all of their material from the early days at all. Especially in the early R&B material Charlie's signature jazz-influenced sound and minimalist backbeat is already there ("roll", "swing" if you like). But to me it looks like that especially in those "marvellous noisy single A-sides", as you aptly put it, they were looking for something extra, something for the single to stand out, to make those 'statements' played on a radio as fascinating as possible and on which their career back then totally based on (and I think they didn't put so much effort and creative juice on every cut as they did to single A-sides). And they were pretty experimental by heart back then (since, bloody hell, there wasn't any 'Rolling Stones signature sound' yet they should imitate). So Charlie's drums was one of the 'tricks' to do something novel (like, say, Keith's fuzz guitar in "Satisfaction" or Brian's sitar in "Paint It Black", etc) - to offer a new, exciting beat for people to dance to and everything. Now to look at those big singles from those days: "Satisfaction", "Get Off of My Cloud", "19th Nervous Breakdown", "Paint It Black", "Have You Seen Your Mother", "Let's Spend The Night Together", even "We Love You" still... All of them have a damn loud, aggressive drum track and each of them is played differently... In many cases it was 'trial and error' I think...

But like I said, that was just a hasty reply. This needs to be reflected further... (on a different thread I suppose)

- Doxa

For what it's worth, I think "19th Nervous Breakdown" is now played as it should be played, compared to the slow arrangement of the Licks tour. I never understood why they ever felt the need for this slow tempo arrangement, and that includes the slow version of "The Last Time" from the Bridges To Babylon tour too.

Basically two energetic power numbers from the mid-60's, slowed down to... yes, exactly what, absolutely nothing convincing.

Makes me think that with Steve, they would even make "The Last Time" sound right again.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-07 02:12 by retired_dog.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Markdog ()
Date: October 7, 2021 03:28

Generally Steve is doing a good job from what I've watched. The snare sound is odd to me and not quite right to my ears. Very thud sounding with Steve's hard hitting and lacking snares and body.

I thought Midnight Rambler was way off the mark. Tough song to play with the slower and faster tempo transitions. This highlights how well Keith and Charlie locked in which is critical to the flow of the song.

Steve seemed quite lost trying to follow Keith because Keith usually leans on Charlie during this song.

A bit of a gong show but they are having fun.
MR

They will likely improve as they play it more.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: mosthigh ()
Date: October 7, 2021 10:08

Yes, I found the transitions in MR kind of abrupt. As someone who played (bass) in a Stones tribute band, MR was one of the trickier tunes to get the drummer onboard with, especially going into speeding up slightly in the last verse. After a while, though, we were able to really stretch it out '72-style, complete with a bluesy breakdown in the middle and transition tempos passably.

It's really just a matter of time for Steve - first comes the form, then the spirit will follow (or is it the other way around?).

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Date: October 7, 2021 10:43

I found the part about rehearsals in the Chuck-interview by roller99 interesting. Especially the part about Steve being extremely thorough and that he really took it seriously, recording all songs etc.

I think some of that attitude rubbed off on the rest of the lads.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Bjorn ()
Date: October 7, 2021 12:24

1978 - punk rock, 2021 - Steve Jordan. smiling smiley

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: matxil ()
Date: October 7, 2021 12:34

Quote
Markdog
Generally Steve is doing a good job from what I've watched. The snare sound is odd to me and not quite right to my ears. Very thud sounding with Steve's hard hitting and lacking snares and body.

I thought Midnight Rambler was way off the mark. Tough song to play with the slower and faster tempo transitions. This highlights how well Keith and Charlie locked in which is critical to the flow of the song.

Steve seemed quite lost trying to follow Keith because Keith usually leans on Charlie during this song.

A bit of a gong show but they are having fun.
MR

They will likely improve as they play it more.

I like what Steve Jordan does. It works very well and it's groovy. It's different from Charlie but nobody wants an imitation.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Date: October 7, 2021 12:40

Quote
Bjorn
1978 - punk rock, 2021 - Steve Jordan. smiling smiley

When I listen to 19th Nervous Breakdown with Jordan I feel they're on that 1978-path again thumbs up

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Rocktiludrop ()
Date: October 7, 2021 12:59

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I found the part about rehearsals in the Chuck-interview by roller99 interesting. Especially the part about Steve being extremely thorough and that he really took it seriously, recording all songs etc.

I think some of that attitude rubbed off on the rest of the lads.

Yes Steve is very sympathetic to the Stones, Charlie, and the fans, the perfect replacement for an impossible job. I hope fans warm to him and begin to realise he has the potential to extend the life of this band for many years health permitting.

What has become clear, and i predicted it, Steve has increased the tempo, and this kind of music only works with pace and energy.

Above all i respect what he has done for my hero, he's brought Keith back to life and I'd go so far as to say this is the first time I'm really seeing Keith enjoy the music and the whole band of musicians around him since 2003, probably because Keith see's himself back in the drivers seat where he belongs and where he can make miracles happen..

Also Keith said he was going to retire in 2010/2011, Jordan talked Keith into what became Crosseyed Heart, go back further and Jordan gave Keith a lifeline when Mick went solo and Keith found himself at a loose end, yep Steve has been a great friend to Keith and hopefully he can help Mick and Keith finish this album.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-07 13:11 by Rocktiludrop.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Spud ()
Date: October 7, 2021 13:24

I hope it won't take too long for them to release a live show with Steve on record.

It will be nice to hear and analyse the contrast with Charlie from that perspective.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: shattered ()
Date: October 7, 2021 21:30

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Bjorn
1978 - punk rock, 2021 - Steve Jordan. smiling smiley

When I listen to 19th Nervous Breakdown with Jordan I feel they're on that 1978-path again thumbs up

Well said!

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: October 8, 2021 00:26

Quote
Spud
I hope it won't take too long for them to release a live show with Steve on record.

It will be nice to hear and analyse the contrast with Charlie from that perspective.

There are and will be bootlegs for that.

No official live albums without Charlie please.

Let them finish honouring him this year, and celebrating their 60th next.

Thereafter, a three-Stone 'band' is no band.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-08 00:26 by Four Stone Walls.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: audun-eg ()
Date: October 8, 2021 00:55

Quote
retired_dog

For what it's worth, I think "19th Nervous Breakdown" is now played as it should be played, compared to the slow arrangement of the Licks tour. I never understood why they ever felt the need for this slow tempo arrangement, and that includes the slow version of "The Last Time" from the Bridges To Babylon tour too.

Basically two energetic power numbers from the mid-60's, slowed down to... yes, exactly what, absolutely nothing convincing.

Makes me think that with Steve, they would even make "The Last Time" sound right again.
Completetly agree with you when it comes to 19th as I said previously. The Last Time played with a shuffle groove as it was on record would be preferred to later straight beat versions, and closer to the original.
However I think Satisfaction works better the way Charlie chose to do it later on. 4 beats on the snare the whole song through is a bit tiresome in my ears.

[www.reverbnation.com]

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: shadooby ()
Date: October 8, 2021 01:30

I always liked the Winos and Steve's drumming so I don't know what the naysayers are complaining about. Yeah it's no Charlie, but hey Mick Taylor was no Brian Jones and Ron Wood was no Taylor...so what, deal with it.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Green Lady ()
Date: October 8, 2021 11:28

Quote
shadooby
I always liked the Winos and Steve's drumming so I don't know what the naysayers are complaining about. Yeah it's no Charlie, but hey Mick Taylor was no Brian Jones and Ron Wood was no Taylor...so what, deal with it.

Just been listening to the Winos live in Cologne - now there you do have Steve Jordan going bang, bang, bang! I enjoy the Winos, and it suits that band, but for me it does get a bit much after a while. But the important thing is that he isn't drumming like that now with the Stones: the man has more than one style and can adapt. It does seem to be working.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: yeababyyea ()
Date: October 8, 2021 13:01

Always been a much bigger fan of the Stones live in concert than in studio. Don't wanna go to a concert and hear the band try to replicate the studio recording. The way Charlie found new variations when playing the songs really made the band more fun and interesting!

19th Nervous Breakdown in 1997/98 was very good with a nice groove. The 2021 version is acceptable but doesn't do much for me.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2021-10-08 13:08 by yeababyyea.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: KRiffhard ()
Date: October 8, 2021 14:03

I really like Jordan's style. He has his own distinct trademark in the way he plays and is not a simple copy of our beloved Charlie.
On the contrary, what i continue to dislike since 1994 is the style of Darryl Jones. He is a great guy, but for me he was the least suitable to replace Wyman. I can't even stand his solo on Miss You: useless and boring. How much i wanted William "Bootsy" Collins or Doug Wimbish.

Re: Steve Jordan Reinvigorating the Band
Posted by: Four Stone Walls ()
Date: October 8, 2021 17:42

Quote
KRiffhard
I really like Jordan's style. He has his own distinct trademark in the way he plays and is not a simple copy of our beloved Charlie.
On the contrary, what i continue to dislike since 1994 is the style of Darryl Jones. He is a great guy, but for me he was the least suitable to replace Wyman. I can't even stand his solo on Miss You: useless and boring. How much i wanted William "Bootsy" Collins or Doug Wimbish.

Or a British guy of their generation blues(/jazz)generation.

Totally agree with you about Darryl though.

Steve Jordan is fantastic - Rolling Stones V5
Posted by: Grichka ()
Date: October 13, 2021 08:50

I flew to Nashville and LA to see the 5th version of the band with Steve Jordan and I thought he was fantastic.

Just to make it clear, Stones V1 with Brian Jones, V2 with Mick Taylor, V3 with Ron Wood and V4 with Darryl Jones.

On 19th Nervous Breakdown Steve Jordan is bringing back a feel of "Got live if you want it".
Thanks for giving us this V5!

[www.lesoir.be]

Re: Steve Jordan is fantastic - Rolling Stones V5
Posted by: johnypar ()
Date: October 14, 2021 02:52

Merci !
Agree that V5 is excellent, enjoy the shows !

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