Not a helluva lot but enough to make me eat my heart out. Glad I got to see them at MSG though. (Apologies if already posted.)

I remember that show. I was up in the balcony pretty close to where that camera was. Place was packed, could hardly move even up in the balcony. And it was foggier inside than outside, believe me.

jb

I just posted a download link for this and all the other Stones clips on my channel in b/s/t:

[iorr.org]

A couple of months ago the Pittsburgh '72 footage and now this Winterland footage.... have these been in private collectors hands for years and now just popping up out of nowhere, or is it possible this is because '72 and '73 footage is being worked on for a possible 50th anniversary box?
Might we finally be getting some new soundboards long collecting dust in the vaults?

i would be pretty sure Bill Graham who produced the Winterland shows would have had audio and video recorders rolling. He always did. This might show up in Wolfgangs Vault if it hasn't already. He had cameras stationed in various places on stage and off for most shows and no way would he not have for the Stones.

jb

Yes I was fortunate enough to have seen The Who, ELO, Little Feat and Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers at Winterland, and have seen a lot of footage released on Wolfgang's vault over the years. I always thought Bill Graham might have had footage of the Stone's performances there, but always figured the Stones had tighter control or it was a gentlemen's agreement maybe to never make it public. The curious thing to me is almost all of any concert footage I have seen from Winterland has always been in Black & White.
So now, out of nowhere and with no anticipation or leaks this Winterland footage might be showing up, it just DOES! And in color, no less!
The only explanations for it would be that the footage is common among private collectors and someone released it because of (?)
Or what other explanation could there be for it?
Was it yours bleedingman, or do you know the origin of why and how it has just appeared with no leak or announcement/teaser from someone it might be showing up?
Seems pretty odd.... I know it is only bits of 3 or 4 songs.... surely it was edited from a longer roll of film....
Anyone?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-23 06:38 by edkeef.

I'm the one who uploaded this and did the audio sync - I found the clip on Dailymotion uploaded 4 years ago:

[www.dailymotion.com]

It's definitely not something done by Bill Graham, as my understanding is that he stuck to videotape when recording shows. Furthermore, as far as I know any Stones-related video he may have recorded was lost in the 1980s fire that claimed a large part of his collection.

Thanks for the reply. I was just thinking about most of the Wolfgang and Bill Graham related stuff was on video tape; I hadn't gone back to see what I could find on the '72 tour to see what info was available as far as shows filmed. I just cannot remember ever hearing that this show was filmed and/or how many others on this tour were besides NYC.
Do you remember what the source was for it appearing on Daily Motion?
The quality looks pretty clean, so that is what made me think maybe this was released as a teaser that all film of the '72 was being worked on being restored.
Maybe I'm just pissin' in the wind tho? haha Wishful thinking?
I would be curious as to if there was any info on when it first appeared.

I don't have any idea of its origins before appearing on Dailymotion, but based on some of the other films on the channel, I have a feeling that this film was either purchased or loaned from the original taper and taken to a third-party company for a proper digital scan, which would account for the numbering system on the bottom - I've had 16mm films done like that before and the quality looks similar. You can see the same numbering system on other films on the same user's page, like this:

[www.dailymotion.com]

As far as 72-era footage, there's a lot of shows that were partially filmed by Robert Frank, but who knows how much exists beyond brief song clips. There's bound to be more audience films like this that are either in private hands or were never circulated to begin with. Things often have a way of turning up unexpectedly though, like the partial clips from Pittsburgh.

Quote
edkeef
Yes I was fortunate enough to have seen The Who, ELO, Little Feat and Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers at Winterland, and have seen a lot of footage released on Wolfgang's vault over the years. I always thought Bill Graham might have had footage of the Stone's performances there, but always figured the Stones had tighter control or it was a gentlemen's agreement maybe to never make it public. The curious thing to me is almost all of any concert footage I have seen from Winterland has always been in Black & White.
So now, out of nowhere and with no anticipation or leaks this Winterland footage might be showing up, it just DOES! And in color, no less!
The only explanations for it would be that the footage is common among private collectors and someone released it because of (?)
Or what other explanation could there be for it?
Was it yours bleedingman, or do you know the origin of why and how it has just appeared with no leak or announcement/teaser from someone it might be showing up?
Seems pretty odd.... I know it is only bits of 3 or 4 songs.... surely it was edited from a longer roll of film....
Anyone?

When did you see the Who there, '68 or '76? I saw the first of the '76 shows and it was the greatest concert I've ever seen, by any band. Just breathtaking, powerful, inspiring, indescribable really unless you were there.

Is there any Who Winterland from '76 in Wolfgang's Vault? Or from the Day on the Green shows later that year with the Dead in Oakland?

What I would really like to see is some video from the 1975 Cow Palace shows, the second of which was my first Stones show. And, I really want a ticket stub from that show, or even from the first show. Someone had a complete unused ticket from the first show on July 15th on ebay a few months ago and I made an offer which was rejected and so I waited and it continued to be listed for a while, then it suddenly disappeared and has not reappeared since and I am just sick over it.


plexi

Hi Plexi
I saw the Who first show at Winterland in 76 and also the Day on the Green with the Dead later in October. They were great both times, with the Winterland show obviously better just because the intensity of being with only 5000, which would be considered almost a club show today! ha
Unfortunately, we were way off to the left side of the stage in the balcony, so the sound was not the best. Still a great great show with one of the first ever laser shows that was fantastic; giant spider webs in green and blue.
You remember I am sure there were 100,000 requests for the two shows only holding 5000 each. When I got the notice of a certified letter, I almost fainted! I was the most popular kid for a couple weeks in school!
Winterland was THE best place for a show and I'M very fortunate to have been able to see a few shows there before it closed. I was too young for 1972, and my mom was going to let me go to the 1975 shows at the Cow Palace, but I could not get a ticket. Tried winning them on the radio but didn't happen!
First Rolling Stones show was Anaheim first show in 78 and then a couple days later in Oakland for the fantastic ping pong ball and blow up doll show on Mick's Birthday. My all time favorite concert ever!!! No one will ever top that entrance!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-23 10:21 by edkeef.

Quote
automaticchanger

It's definitely not something done by Bill Graham, as my understanding is that he stuck to videotape when recording shows.

Yeah this footage is obviously privately-shot 8mm film.

Maybe the Dick Cavett show filmed the entire MSG 1972 concert, because it seems strange they would film just the first and last song of the show as well as All Down the Line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-23 14:32 by Taylor1.

I saw The Who at Winterland in '76, and was standing near the front. The cover of the Maximum R&B box was shot at that show, and it might have been taken by the photographer who was standing next to me, cause that's just about how far away I was from Daltry.

Anyway, there was a crew who videotaped the opening act, the Steve Gibbons Band. It was a pretty pedestrian opener (the only thing I can remember is a lame cover of Dylan's "Watching The River Flow" and looking at Steve in the one cameraman's B&W monitor.)

But after him, all their stuff was shut off before the Who came on. Which is too bad, because as noted, it was a show for the ages.


Looking at that Stones footage, and remembering how great the Who were there four years later, makes me wish I could have somehow been at that Winterland Stones in '72. It makes my head explode imagining what it must have been like being there.

I agree with dcba. This is likely someone's personal 8mm film and obviously stored in great condition with the colors being just perfect.

It's sad that today you could store more video on your phone than exists of the Stones prior to 1981 combined.

I don't think the Dick Cavett crew would've been allowed to film the whole show. More likely than not they were invited to film Brown Sugar then shut it down until Street Fighting Man.

Quote
dcba

Quote
automaticchanger

It's definitely not something done by Bill Graham, as my understanding is that he stuck to videotape when recording shows.

Yeah this footage is obviously privately-shot 8mm film.

Nothing about Bill Graham shows was obvious. He had camera/video people stationed all over all the time and if you ever went to shows there they were pretty obvious. So, I am not 100% convinced this is not Graham sourced film. Also he recorded or taped acts whether or not they wanted him to, that has become obvious in the years since then, especially if you check out Wolfgang's Vault. It was his place(s) and he did as he pleased.

Did not know that when the Wolfgangs restaurant on Columbus burned down that part of the collection went with it. If that is the fire you are referring to. Graham had a big warehouse south of Market St that I visited a couple times because my friend worked for him there, and my impression was most of the collection was stored there. The fire at the restaurant/club was pretty much for sure set by this cat I kinda knew, was not a friend more an adversary, and he had a big problem with Graham and his organization and was highly suspected of setting the fire that destroyed the place, never enough evidence to arrest him though.

Winterland was a second string venue, Fillmore West and the original Fillmore auditorium on Geary St were much better, more inviting, more intimate. Winterland was built for Ice Follies and big spectacles like that, so even though it seems low capacity by today's standards, it was considered a "shed" back in those days and the sound generally sucked anywhere but right in front of the stage. I probably saw twenty or so shows there over the years including that Stones show (I forget if there were two shows or just one) and a few GD shows.

jb

Quote
yearsinthemaking
I agree with dcba. This is likely someone's personal 8mm film and obviously stored in great condition with the colors being just perfect.

It's sad that today you could store more video on your phone than exists of the Stones prior to 1981 combined.

I don't think the Dick Cavett crew would've been allowed to film the whole show. More likely than not they were invited to film Brown Sugar then shut it down until Street Fighting Man.

But at the end of the show there is a clip of them playing All Down the Line, not just the aforementioned songs.It was shown at the end of the original show , and has Monkey Man music overdubbed it .But its All Down the Line because Taylor is playing slide and Jagger is dancing frantically so its not Love in Vain.So why would they film Brown Sugar, then nothing else before jumping toAll Down then shutting it down again until Street Fighting Man.At the very least, it should mean they also had a film of All Down the Line as well



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-05-24 02:45 by Taylor1.

After watching this a couple more times I think it was filmed from one of the VIP rooms under the balcony, built into the balcony actually, and that would lead me to think even more it is BG footage. I don't think one could actually sneak an 8mm or larger camera into the place, or even a video camera of the day and then film surreptitiously, they checked you at the door pretty closely especially for these shows as I recall. So if it is BG footage, there might well be more where that came from, just not released to the public as of yet.

Of course, I could be dead wrong about all that, but like I said the more I see it, the more I think it was in house filming and probably without the Stones knowledge or permission.

jb

Quote
Taylor1
why would they film Brown Sugar, then nothing else before jumping to All Down then shutting it down again until Street Fighting Man.

Super-8 was expensive and it only allowed to film (iirc) 2m30s at 24fps or 3m20s at 18fps with one cassette. So you basically had to bring one cassette per song you wanted to film.

Super-8 wasn't all that expensive back then compared to now. The film could be bought and sent out to be processed at any drug store.

The smallest video camera would have been bigger than a Super-8 camera, and have to be attached by cable to a portable deck with a reel-to-reel tape or a 20-minute U-matic cassette.

Shooting secretly from the crowd on video would have been tough.

So Dick Cavett show could only film one song at a timeat the concert?Then how did they film the Tv show?Why couldn’t they film the entire concert without an interruption

When you have a big budget and are operating in the open, then you can have two or more cameras loaded with film ready to go. Hundreds of cameras if need be.

And not sure Dick Cavett was using film for location shooting in those days; could well have been using tape.

jb

Cavett/ABC was videotape from my understanding.

The Stones limited what could be recorded at the time. Like now they were very controlling. Unfortunately we are the losers in the end because they felt if Dick Cavett or anyone else recorded them the people doing the recording would have possession of the tapes. It goes back to their mindless refusal to allow the BBC to record them at the 1966 NME show. The Beatles did the same thing. There's just not much out there from 1970-73. Robert Frank may have made some more live video but it seems fairly crappy.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if in some vault somewhere in London there are some multi-angled tapes from MSG in '72 as well as London or Brussels in '73. Or maybe that's just some insane wishful thinking!!!!

I managed to download the zip as a rar, but it doesn't open using my unrar. Should more info be added?

I'm a GHOST living in a ghost town

Quote
yearsinthemaking
The Stones limited what could be recorded at the time. Like now they were very controlling. Unfortunately we are the losers in the end because they felt if Dick Cavett or anyone else recorded them the people doing the recording would have possession of the tapes. It goes back to their mindless refusal to allow the BBC to record them at the 1966 NME show. The Beatles did the same thing. There's just not much out there from 1970-73. Robert Frank may have made some more live video but it seems fairly crappy.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if in some vault somewhere in London there are some multi-angled tapes from MSG in '72 as well as London or Brussels in '73. Or maybe that's just some insane wishful thinking!!!!

The Maysles bros recorded entire shows of all three MSG shows in '69.


plexi

Quote
jbwelda
After watching this a couple more times I think it was filmed from one of the VIP rooms under the balcony, built into the balcony actually, and that would lead me to think even more it is BG footage. I don't think one could actually sneak an 8mm or larger camera into the place, or even a video camera of the day and then film surreptitiously, they checked you at the door pretty closely especially for these shows as I recall. So if it is BG footage, there might well be more where that came from, just not released to the public as of yet.

Of course, I could be dead wrong about all that, but like I said the more I see it, the more I think it was in house filming and probably without the Stones knowledge or permission.

jb

I doubt it as the film is so shaky. Not BGP recording which tended to be of higher quality.


plexi

Quote
edkeef
Hi Plexi
I saw the Who first show at Winterland in 76 and also the Day on the Green with the Dead later in October. They were great both times, with the Winterland show obviously better just because the intensity of being with only 5000, which would be considered almost a club show today! ha
Unfortunately, we were way off to the left side of the stage in the balcony, so the sound was not the best. Still a great great show with one of the first ever laser shows that was fantastic; giant spider webs in green and blue.
You remember I am sure there were 100,000 requests for the two shows only holding 5000 each. When I got the notice of a certified letter, I almost fainted! I was the most popular kid for a couple weeks in school!
Winterland was THE best place for a show and I'M very fortunate to have been able to see a few shows there before it closed. I was too young for 1972, and my mom was going to let me go to the 1975 shows at the Cow Palace, but I could not get a ticket. Tried winning them on the radio but didn't happen!
First Rolling Stones show was Anaheim first show in 78 and then a couple days later in Oakland for the fantastic ping pong ball and blow up doll show on Mick's Birthday. My all time favorite concert ever!!! No one will ever top that entrance!!!

I was behind the stage and also wandered all over the place taking fotos from different angles with a 35mm camera with telefoto/zoom lense. Some of my pics are soon to be published in a forthcoming book "The Who: A Million Little Memories" which will have a major focus on the Who shows in the Bay Area.

I was front row on the wooden barrier (this was before there was a "rail") at one of the Who Dead shows at the Day on the Green. Some guy came along taking pics. I thought nothing of it but a few weeks later, Rolling Stone did an article on the show including some pics of the crowd and I can be seen in two of them. That is also the show where I held up a sign for the Ox's birthday which he acknowledged. And before the show, I and a couple others were yelling at Graham to move these tall planters which partially blocked the view of the stage when he suddenly whirled around and said F*k you at me with the emphasis on the first word.

Spider web laser shows at the Winterland show -- weren't those just fantastic??!! I've got a pic of Daltrey at the mic with the laser web above him.

The ticket lottery -- it was just amazing luck that I got a pair. The odds were heavily against it. As I recall, you sent in an application with a money order and they sent the two tickets back, but I am not sure about that and am open to correction. The Who at that time was a greater band on stage than the Stones.

I was at the '78 show at the DOG in Oakland on Mick's birthday too. Still have the t shirt, along with the two t shirts from the two Who shows in '76.

Memories for a lifetime.


plexi

Yelling at Bill Graham, yeah man that does a lot of good. You are lucky he just retaliated with words instead of booting yer ass out of the park like he did with a lot of others in similar situations.

jb

Quote
yearsinthemaking
The Stones limited what could be recorded at the time. Like now they were very controlling. Unfortunately we are the losers in the end because they felt if Dick Cavett or anyone else recorded them the people doing the recording would have possession of the tapes. It goes back to their mindless refusal to allow the BBC to record them at the 1966 NME show. The Beatles did the same thing. There's just not much out there from 1970-73. Robert Frank may have made some more live video but it seems fairly crappy.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if in some vault somewhere in London there are some multi-angled tapes from MSG in '72 as well as London or Brussels in '73. Or maybe that's just some insane wishful thinking!!!!


The Maysles bros recorded entire shows of all three MSG shows in '69.

Yes, but the Maysles were hired by the Stones as was Robert Frank and whomever is credited with recording L&G. Cavett and the the BBC were not.