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Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: February 10, 2021 03:32

[www.google.com]

It has always interested me why the sound of L&G is so bad relative to what the Stones should have released in a concert film. Strangely the Rolling Stone magazine review from 1974 (above) states that "the sound is both good and loud". I also remember seeing the movie and thinking the sound was good. Now the sound is lousy. I wonder if when the film was made and played as intended on quadrophonic sound system if that was because all 16 concert tracks that were recorded were then created differently on the 4 quad sound parts of the film then a normal stereo soundtrack would have been recorded. Now all of the existing recordings are stereo. Did 2 of the quad tracks simply get deleted or lost in translation? There has to be a reason why the sound is so tiny and shallow. I can't imagine Rolling Stone magazine would say that the music we hear on L&G now is good. I hope my question makes sense because it is a mystery to me

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: timmyj3 ()
Date: February 10, 2021 04:25

I first saw the film in 1976 0r 1977 as a young teenager. We saw it at The Uptown Theater in Milwaukee, WI. I was ultra disappointed in the sound at the time. I am positive that this theater was not using a quad sound system as the movie was already 3-4 years old and I believe Quad was already yesterdays news.

I suspect that you are onto something. Seems to be the great mystery of Stones lore. How could such a kick ass tour sound so average? I actually have a bootleg video of L&G and the sound is quite powerful. Much better than the official release from a few years back.

Someone out there has to know what the real deal is.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: February 10, 2021 04:42

....can someone pleeeeeze cut/paste the RS article


But yeah it was originally Quad sound
with no audience footage so as to give
the feel that one was watching a live Stones show ....



ROCKMAN

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: February 10, 2021 04:55


Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: February 10, 2021 05:34

....thanks man ...
But still cant read hold article ....

surely someone can do a lil copy - paste job ....



ROCKMAN



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-10 09:46 by Rockman.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: February 10, 2021 06:52

it was the translation from quad to stereo that killed it. I think they did just choose two of the four tracks and that was your stereo mix. I saw it when it came out and then again a few years later, I think I recall it sounded at least ok the first time but by the second it was totally down in the mud. But the first time it was in a nice theatre with a good sound system and the second was at a midnite movie at a run down cinema with just normal at best sound system. But I think the first time was quad and the second time just a stereo or even mono mix.

jb

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: February 10, 2021 07:08

... Remember going to see it twice at
a theatre half way up Bourke st Melbourne
in the seventies .. Metro theatre or some such place..

Cant remember a thing about the sound ...
we were all just stunned ta see Thee Stones ...

Think it was only shown there twice then gone ....



ROCKMAN

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: LieB ()
Date: February 10, 2021 09:33

Yeah who knows. I think if you see it in a good movie theater with a nice sound system, even the mediocre stereo mix is gonna sound pretty good. Your ears adjust and so on. But of course a real good mix – like Brussels '73 or the bootlegged tracks that were mixed for the '72 live album – would make it much better.

In my opinion, the disappointment lies in the fact that they didn't make a better re-release in 2012 (I think it was?). They should have remixed it from the multitrack tapes. Could be that they haven't survived.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Date: February 10, 2021 09:40

Obviously, they don't have the tapes. And even though this is a fold-down from the quad-mix (and a bad one at that), there is no reason for the instruments to sound this bad.

Even the TMQ-boot of L&G sound better, and that boot is mp3!

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: February 10, 2021 17:29

I don't know much about film making, but could it be that the sound was on the same tape roll as the actual film? If so, Did just one tape exist? I've heard more than once that the movie has traveled around the whole world. I can imagine it must have been some wear an tear along the way. In my head it would come as a big surprice if the separate audio tapes of all four concerts has dissappeared. My speculation on the reason the todays soundtrack is muffed, (on an off,especially in the beginning) is because it's from the original worn out audio mix, and that it would mean too much work to do a new retake on the whole mixing job. Also it would mean interfearing with the actual production with the legal questions that might emerge.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-10 18:02 by S.T.P.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: DiamondDog7 ()
Date: February 10, 2021 17:54

Another thing that wasn't cool about L&G:

There's a difference between the audio AND the video! You can see this clearly during HAPPY. Especially the vocals. You can see Mick NOT sing in the mic at the end, but you hear him anyway! confused smiley That doesn't add up.




Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Date: February 10, 2021 19:09

Quote
DiamondDog7
Another thing that wasn't cool about L&G:

There's a difference between the audio AND the video! You can see this clearly during HAPPY. Especially the vocals. You can see Mick NOT sing in the mic at the end, but you hear him anyway! confused smiley That doesn't add up.



They filmed several shows and used clips from at least two of the Fort Worth-shows. We can tell by the different outfits.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: blivet ()
Date: February 10, 2021 19:18

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
DiamondDog7
Another thing that wasn't cool about L&G:

There's a difference between the audio AND the video! You can see this clearly during HAPPY. Especially the vocals. You can see Mick NOT sing in the mic at the end, but you hear him anyway! confused smiley That doesn't add up.



They filmed several shows and used clips from at least two of the Fort Worth-shows. We can tell by the different outfits.

A more observant friend pointed out that Mick's outfit sometimes changes during a song, as does Keith's guitar.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Date: February 10, 2021 19:36

Quote
Rolling Stone article
New York — A year and a half after the fact, one of the two films about the Rolling Stones American tour is out. Ladies and Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones opened on Easter Sunday at the Ziegfield Theatre in New York City. Not a movie in the traditional sense, the film is being touted as a new concept in cinema, a concert in and of itself. Tickets must be purchased in advance for engagements that vary in length in each city, depending on the theaters. A special sound crew is brought in, and with them come special quadraphonic speakers capable of reaching 100 honest decibels without distorting.

If the New York opening went the way co-producer/director Roland Binzer said it would (this issue goes to press four days before the Easter Sunday send-off), then 100,000 people gathered to celebrate the event: Two city blocks around the theater were cordoned off and turned into one roaring extravaganza; a 40-foot-high Rolling Stones winged tongue rose into the sky just as the movie was beginning for the chosen few inside the theater and 2000 white doves were released to shed their blessings upon the inhabitants of New York; a 65-foot-long dragon, flown from San Francisco, wound its way through the streets while the ticketless multitudes mingled with the ticketed guests buying bread and fruit from glittered 20-foot-high stands disguised as milk bottles, watermelons and coffeepots . . . If it was the way Binzer said it was going to be . . .

Binzer, it should be noted, has an advertising background, possesses a closet full of awards for TV spots and short films, is the originator of the Screaming Yellow Zonkers campaign and the purveyor of such products as Wrigley’s Spearmint Gum and Ovaltine. If it was the way Binzer said it was going to be on Easter Sunday, then there were “bands, fire-eaters, guys balancing lawn mowers on their chins . . . policemen with eggs on their heads and white plumes in the bridles of their horses . . . 20-foot-high dragon faces with singers and dancers stepping through the gaping mouths, music from the White Magnolia Creole Band from New Orleans . . .” The festivities were to begin at 7 PM, and as the scheduled curtain time of 9 PM approached, there was a procession of “strangely dressed motor-driven vehicles — Cadillacs upholstered on the outside with plushy soft pink satin . . . limousines lined with ostrich feathers . . . tarred and feathered cars, and one very special auto festooned with rubber ducks.” If Mick Jagger came — and it looked pretty certain that Mick Jagger would come — he wanted to be in the car with the rubber ducks.

No one explained why.

As the curtain rose inside the Ziegfield — if all went well — there were 1000 lucky revelers, 600 of them picked from among the 50,000 people who sent postcards to New York’s WNEW-FM requesting tickets. The other 400 were people who worked on the film and the outside extravaganza, rock critics (more than film critics, since the film is being promoted as a unique Seventies version of a concert), and assorted celebrities, including the mayor of New York. “Abe Beame called us specially to ask if he could come,” said Binzer, who estimated the cost of the Easter Sunday premiere at between $150,000 and $200,000.

Financing the extravaganza is a company called Dragonaire, a subsidiary of Seaboard Corporation and formed by Seaboard executive Miles Spector to distribute the Stones’ film. According to Marshall Chess, president of Rolling Stones Records, which bankrolled the film, Spector purchased distribution rights to the property. “It’s his film,” Chess said. The Stones collect a royalty from the proceeds of the tour.

Dragonaire rents a local theater at a flat rate — no percentage is paid to the house — and tickets, costing no more than $5 apiece, will be sold through ticket agencies, not at the box office. Each touring unit (the print of the film, the customized projector, the four special speakers, the necessary scaffolding, and the special curtain) costs Dragonaire $42,000, according to Chess. The film tour will start with five units (after New York they will open in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Chicago, Dallas and Atlanta) and when or if they make their money back, they will move into smaller cities.

Actually Ladies and Gentlemen didn’t start out to be a feature-length film at all. Originally it was going to be part of a documentary that photographers Robert Frank and Danny Seymour were to make of the entire American tour. Frank and Seymour, who shot behind-the-scenes material with hand-held cameras, didn’t care for big crews and fancy equipment, so when it came to shooting the performances, they contacted Bob Fries and Steve Gebhardt, producers of the ABC-TV special One To One, with John Lennon and Yoko Ono; they also made a documentary of the 1971 John Sinclair benefit called Ten For Two, an event organized by the Lennon–Onos to protest Sinclair’s ten-year prison sentence for possession of two joints of marijuana. (That film is being held up, reportedly because Sinclair and Ono are fighting over whether the money should go to the Black Panthers or the New York Feminists.) Gebhardt and Fries had also done several shorts for John and Yoko, including Imagine and Fly, which was filmed in Danny Seymour’s loft. Which is why Danny Seymour knew about Fries and Gebhardt and how they got the job of shooting the Stones’ tour performances.

Gebhardt and Fries, on a $30,000 budget, shot 60,000 feet of film at two concerts for the Fort Worth/Dallas area and two concerts in Houston. The two filmmakers, plus a four-man camera crew, shot in 16mm film, mostly from the back of the halls using a 600mm lens powerful enough to pull in full close-ups. This footage eventually became Ladies and Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones and the Seymour-Frank footage was excluded.

The Seymour-Frank behind-the-scenes material had problems — problems that precluded the use of this documentary material in Ladies and Gentlemen. On the Stones’ tour, some members of the press, notably Truman Capote, noted that Frank’s camera had caught people passing around plates of pills, and that there were shots of a member of the entourage locked in carnal tandem with a female high-school reporter on a less-than-private section of the Stones’ private plane. Marshall Chess allowed as how “there were scenes of people on the crew @#$%&. Well, a crew member may have a wife. That came up. We’re waiting for some releases. There hasn’t been any resolution yet.” The Seymour-Frank film is finished, Chess said, and one needs “technical work — re-mixing the music.” He said it may be out within a year.

The rumors as to the raunchy nature of sections of the offstage film footage were heatedly denied by a close friend of Frank who says there is nothing scandalous about the film, that it is a loving portrait of the Stones, and that it is a work of art and not a commercial venture.

According to Chess, Danny Seymour bought a ketch and sailed off to the Caribbean after the film was shot. No one has heard from him, his boat turned up stolen, and he is missing, presumed dead. Frank retreated into the hinterlands of Nova Scotia, where he refuses to take phone calls.

Ladies and Gentlemen, composed entirely of Gebhardt-Fries performance footage, was originally edited by the filmmakers. Marshall Chess, apparently dissatisfied with the results, brought in Roland Binzer, who, with Gebhardt, re-edited the film. At this point, Chess said, Binzer and Gebhardt came up with the concert concept, and the Seymour-Frank material was excluded.

“Binzer was the major force,” said Chess. “He figured out the rhythm that made it work.” According to Gebhardt, “We re-did the whole film in an optical lab. We practically re-made the picture frame by frame. We spent a whole summer correcting almost every tenth frame and jockeying around with the 16mm print to make it look like it was shot 35mm for the wide screen.”

There seems to have been some communication breakdown between Binzer and Gebhardt as to who was officially “director” of the film. In the final credits, Binzer, Chess, Fries and Gebhardt are all credited with being producers; Chess is called “executive producer”; Binzer, “director”; Fries,”director of sound production” and Gebhardt, “director of visual production and director of photography.” Said Gebhardt: “We got into a coke- and grass-induced hard-nosed coin-flip to settle the credits . . . it was as good a way as any to resolve the irresolvables.” Binzer confirmed the deciding coin-flip.

Bob Fries and Keith Richards worked on the sound for four months, first at Twickenham Studios in England and later at the Record Plant in Los Angeles. They used a process called “foxholing” which was developed by Twentieth Century Fox for The Robe in 1953, the first stereo movie. Instead of a few wide-sprocket holes and a single sound track for each image frame, there are numerous narrow holes and four separate sound tracks per image in a foxholed film. The method requires a special projector, but it gives a true quad sound, which Binzer and Gebhardt claim is a first in movies. “There’s never been a better live sound track in a concert film,” said Gebhardt.

At an advance screening of Ladies and Gentlemen two months before the Easter preview, the film ran about 90 minutes, and the Stones did 15 numbers in the exact sequence used in all the concerts on the American tour: “Brown Sugar,” “Bitch,” “Gimme Shelter,” “Dead Flowers,” “Happy,” “Tumbling Dice,” “Love In Vain,” “Sweet Virginia,” “You Can’t Always Get What You Want,” “All Down the Line,” “Midnight Rambler,” “Bye Bye Johnny,” “Rip This Joint,” “Jumpin’ Jack Flash” and “Street Fighting Man.”

At the beginning of the film, the screen is blank for 20 full minutes while the quad speakers pump out the sound of an audience filing into a concert hall. Then stage manager Chip Monck’s voice comes on to say, “Ladies and Gentlemen, The Rolling Stones.” The audience — it sounds like people in the theater, but actually it is the sound of the Fort Worth audience mixed with the Houston crowd — goes wild, and the show begins. The sound is both good and loud, the shots get so close that Mick Taylor’s thumbs sometimes look like three-foot-high fence posts. The editing is fluid and non-obtrusive. It is the music that stars in the film. After the concert is over, Chip Monck’s voice asks everyone to clear out and not hang around the concert hall, but if you stick around, you can hear a Spitfire airplane taking off in quad while the picture goes back to being blank, the way it started.

“We just wanted to slowly turn it on and slowly turn it off,” said Gebhardt. “And rev it up all the way in the middle. Nobody really knows it yet, but this is the first really good rock-concert film. There’s no message to it. It’s just what it says it is: the Rolling Stones in concert. Period.”

This is a story from the May 9, 1974 issue of Rolling Stone.

Source

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: DiamondDog7 ()
Date: February 10, 2021 19:37

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
DiamondDog7
Another thing that wasn't cool about L&G:

There's a difference between the audio AND the video! You can see this clearly during HAPPY. Especially the vocals. You can see Mick NOT sing in the mic at the end, but you hear him anyway! confused smiley That doesn't add up.



They filmed several shows and used clips from at least two of the Fort Worth-shows. We can tell by the different outfits.

That's true. I knew that. But using different audio with the video source in ONE SONG isn't cool. It doesn't match. grinning smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-10 19:50 by DiamondDog7.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: noughties ()
Date: February 10, 2021 19:49

I saw it for the first time about 5 years ago at our local move theater. They showed it only for one night. There were heroes from the local music scene to be seen, entering their places before the show. When I came, unluckily there were only first row tickets left. It was one terrible noise from beginning to end.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: February 10, 2021 20:00

I would think there must exist a 16 track recording from each of the 4 shows that were recorded for L&G. Any reason why they wouldn’t exist?

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: February 10, 2021 20:40

Quote
yearsinthemaking
I would think there must exist a 16 track recording from each of the 4 shows that were recorded for L&G. Any reason why they wouldn’t exist?

Can't see why not - and that was dissapointing with the soundtrack that came about 2 years later! They could have taken the opportunity to do it right. I think it would have been an easy job to mix the shows again even with the overdubs, and maybe some extras too...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-10 20:52 by S.T.P.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: Taylor1 ()
Date: February 10, 2021 22:56

The concert clips from CS Blues are pretty good, wonder where they came from and if any complete songs exist.Street Fighting Man sounds like a splice of one of the NYC shows and the Ladies and Gentlemen one.It looks like the only complete songs are the Stones/Wonder jam



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-10 22:58 by Taylor1.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: padre69 ()
Date: February 11, 2021 01:02

Do the L&G cd or bluray sound any better than the dvd?

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: glimmertwin1 ()
Date: February 11, 2021 01:54

Quote
padre69
Do the L&G cd or bluray sound any better than the dvd?

Perhapse the cd is a tad better - still very bad mastered ...

foobar2000 1.5.5 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2020-09-10 21:21:46

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: The Rolling Stones with Mick Taylor / Ladies & Gentlemen
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR7 -0.22 dB -9.46 dB 0:48 01-Intro
DR6 -0.20 dB -6.54 dB 3:14 02-Brown Sugar -Houston 25.6.72, 2nd
DR6 -0.22 dB -7.30 dB 4:46 03-Bitch -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 2nd
DR6 -0.21 dB -7.71 dB 4:50 04-Gimme Shelter -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 1st
DR7 -0.22 dB -7.92 dB 4:03 05-Dead Flowers -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 1st
DR6 -0.22 dB -7.45 dB 3:15 06-Happy -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 1st
DR7 -0.20 dB -8.65 dB 5:21 07-Tumbling Dice -Houston 25.6.72, 1st
DR7 -0.22 dB -9.16 dB 6:18 08-Love in Vain -Houston 25.6.72, 1st
DR7 -0.21 dB -8.97 dB 4:45 09-Sweet Virginia -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 1st
DR6 -0.21 dB -8.24 dB 7:27 10-You Can’t Always Get What You Want -Houston 25.6.72, 1st
DR6 -0.21 dB -7.44 dB 4:47 11-All Down the Line -Houston 25.6.72, 2nd
DR5 -0.19 dB -7.62 dB 12:02 12-Midnight Rambler -Houston 25.6.72, 2nd
DR5 -0.18 dB -7.44 dB 4:32 13-Bye Bye Johnny -Houston 25.6.72, 1st
DR6 -0.22 dB -7.27 dB 2:33 14-Rip This Joint -Fort Worth 24.6.72, 2nd
DR6 -0.20 dB -6.90 dB 3:39 15-Jumpin’ Jack Flash -Houston 25.6.72, 1st
DR6 -0.21 dB -7.26 dB 4:15 16-Street Fighting Man -Houston 25.6.72, 2nd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 16
Official DR value: DR6

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 979 kbps
Codec: FLAC
================================================================================


Boomy bass

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: February 11, 2021 04:57

Quote
padre69
Do the L&G cd or bluray sound any better than the dvd?

The Bluray sounds slightly better than the DVD. I saw it at a midnight showing in 1976. Sounded great. Something happened between Quad and what we ended up with.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Date: February 11, 2021 09:42

<The Rolling Stones with Mick Taylor / Ladies & Gentlemen>

He was in the band, wasn't he? winking smiley

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: February 11, 2021 17:12

I always wondered what music was playing over the speakers before the band went on stage. Sounds like traditional eastern (chineese) music, but also a bit psycedelic. Can it be from a movie soundtrack from the late '60s? I know they also used 2000 light years from home, but in L&G's intro it' something else. Any guess?

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: yearsinthemaking ()
Date: February 11, 2021 21:15

I don't know what the music that is playing for L&G but the intro before the New York shows was 2000 Light Years From Home at least that's what is playing before Brown Sugar on the Dick Cavett broadcast. I don't if that was played before any other shows

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: S.T.P ()
Date: February 12, 2021 22:06

Thanks for showing your interest. It really bothers me to not find out of this. This pice of music is tattooed in my brainsmoking smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2021-02-12 22:07 by S.T.P.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: misterfrias ()
Date: February 13, 2021 19:34

Quote
noughties
I saw it for the first time about 5 years ago at our local move theater. They showed it only for one night. There were heroes from the local music scene to be seen, entering their places before the show. When I came, unluckily there were only first row tickets left. It was one terrible noise from beginning to end.

I remember seeing an ad for that one-night-only showing before the release of the Blu Ray. The ad really hyped the sound quality too.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: padre69 ()
Date: February 22, 2021 00:46

Does the ”You can’t do that baby” -boot sound better than this official release?

I just ordered the L&G cd to hear if it’s really as bad as you say.

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: February 22, 2021 01:49

It isn't really bad, if it were a bootleg release back in the 80s everybody would be going ga ga over it. Its just that its not at all up to the modern standard, nor even the contemporary standard back in the day. Very dull sounding, muddy and indistinct. Typical average bootleg record sound, maybe a little better. And the film print has always been very dark and murky to my memory anyway, like they didn't have proper stage lighting for filming.

jb

Re: Ladies and Gentlemen
Posted by: westonkeef ()
Date: February 22, 2021 03:17

I saw this at The Lincoln Center in NYC in 1996. Steve Gebhardt was there. They played it on two nights. The sound was really good. On the bluray/dvd/cd the sound is not as good. Mick Taylor is down in the mix on many songs.

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