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Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Paulhanrahan ()
Date: September 15, 2020 08:52

I don't know if anyone can shed any further light on this but somewhere in my RS "archives" I have an article where Ronnie is quoted as saying that there was fairly heated discussion between the boys on which tracks should be included on the album and which should be relegated to "B" sides, but that's all he said. It didn't bother me I thought both the album and the "B" sides were excellent. I don't know why but I just started thinking about this of late.

Upon reflection my view is Ronnie was referring to "The Storm".



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-15 09:26 by Paulhanrahan.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Rockman ()
Date: September 15, 2020 09:09





ROCKMAN

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 15, 2020 10:34

Lucky Mick... The singles don't have B-sides any longer...grinning smiley

- Doxa

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 15, 2020 10:54

Anyway, what goes for the initial question, Mick pretty quickly afterwards (1995) confessed that he wasn't happy for VOODOO LOUNGE song selection, or how Don Was generally made the album "too retro", a "new EXILE" or something. There was some 'experimental' stuff Mick liked left out, etc. But anyway, he was pleased with album's sales, so....

But there was something odd going on with VOODOO LOUNGE over-all. What was the deal with Don Was like for him having such a strong say - a compromise between Mick and Keith? - or did Mick just lost interest in some stage or what? Namely, that of him downplaying his own power sounds strange, like him not actually having much a say....? Or was he in that ROLLING STONE 1995 interview just bullshitting...

My picture is - and this is pure speculation - that VOODOO LOUNGE was an experiment to make a Stones album in a way they used to do: having long sessions and all that. The songs created almost from a scratch in the studio by jamming, etc. To create the classical Stones magic again. Making the album took much longer than, for example, STEEL WHEELS, which a pretty quick deal by Stones standards. Probably Don Was had also a kind of Jimmy Miller role or something, seemingly a stronger producer role than the band had for ages (Mick just had a difficult, but successful Rubin experiment in that). Anyway, they, at least Mick, weren't too satisfied with the results - or at least they never again try something like that again. Is that Mick's veto or what (they just got old and tired)? Both BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG were made differently. Pretty hard to say anything about the 'new album'....

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-15 11:03 by Doxa.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: gotdablouse ()
Date: September 15, 2020 11:53

Mick and Keith did spend time in Barbados sharing their ideas and trying to put stuff together, as evidenced by the Voodoo Residue "tapes, like they had done for SW. The main difference is that they were working on a different deadline, it was much shorter for SW, 6 months vs 1 year for VL.

Yeah Mick did complain about the selection/production in the 1995 interview and he was actually not too pleased about the sales since I remember him saying something like "the sales weren't good enough to overcome the disappointment". Of course, any band would dream of having sales numbers like that these days !

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 15, 2020 13:03

Seemingly I misremembered Mick's thoughts about its sales (nothing unusual for me...). So here is the relevant part from that ROLLING STONE interview from 1995:

-------

After Steel Wheels, you took a couple of years off and came back with Voodoo Lounge. What were your goals going into the album? Is it a better album than Steel Wheels?

I don’t know if Steel Wheels is better than Voodoo Lounge, actually. I don’t think there’s a huge difference of quality between the two albums. I wish there was, but I’m afraid, in the end, I don’t think there is.

On Voodoo Lounge it seems like you’ve got better, more distinctive songs.

I don’t know. Perhaps if the Voodoo Lounge album had been more successful commercially, I might have agreed with you, because commercial success changes everything. It colors your opinions. If it had sold 5 million albums, I’d be saying to you, “It’s definitely better than Steel Wheels.“

Let’s talk about it as two rock critics.

That’s different.

You told me when you started to make the record that you were going to spend a lot of time on this one, making as good a record as you could possibly make, making sure you’ve got the songs written in advance. You hired a producer, which you hadn’t done for a long time. Do you feel that you’ve met that expectation?

Not completely. But may be we should list the positive things rather than the negative. I think there is a really good feeling of the band on it – that the band is playing very much as a band, even though it’s got one new member [bassist Darryl Jones]. There’s a good variety of songs. It’s not overelaborate. You get a feeling of really being there, and it’s quite intimate in nature. The ballads are rather nice, and then the rock & roll numbers kick quite well and sound enthusiastic – like we’re into it. I think it’s a good frame of reference of what the Rolling Stones were about during that quite limited time in Ireland in that year.

It’s very much a kind of time-and-place album. In that way I was quite pleased with the results. But there were a lot of things that we wrote for Voodoo Lounge that Don [Was, the record’s producer] steered us away from: groove songs, African influences and things like that. And he steered us very clear of all that. And I think it was a mistake.

What direction did he take you in?

He tried to remake Exile on Main Street or something like that.

Plus, the engineer was also trying to do the same thing. Their mind-set about it was just too retro. I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with it inherently, but they went over the top; they’d gone too far.

Maybe that’s why I like it so much. Was was tugging you toward doing a classic Stones record. Were you trying to fight that?

No, I didn’t really fight it in the end. I gave up because there was no point in it. I think both Charlie and I didn’t really like it, but we could see that that was the direction you could go, and it might be successful. I don’t think it really was that successful, because I don’t think there’s any point in having these over-retro references.

I think it was an opportunity missed to go in another direction, which would have been more unusual, a little more radical, although it’s always going to sound like the Rolling Stones.

-------

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-15 13:06 by Doxa.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: rollmops ()
Date: September 15, 2020 14:20

Mick said in the 94 rolling stone Mag interview :
"But there were a lot of things that we wroe for VL that DW steered us away from : groove songs, African influences and things like that."

Any idea if eventually the Stones used those "grooves and African influences"?

I know that in 1976-77 when Mick and Keith worked with John Philips, African vibes showed up on some of the songs(Zulu Warrior). Did Mick wanted to do more of those type of songs?
World music/african grooves and the Rolling stones?
I don't know if there is a market there. I believe VL is a great record the way it is.
Rockandroll,
Mops

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: KRiffhard ()
Date: September 15, 2020 14:29

5 strings riffin' (intro): [youtu.be]
You Got Me Rocking (alt.version: [youtu.be] )
Sparks Will Fly
The Storm
Love is Strong
You Got it Made ( [youtu.be] )
The Worst
I Go Wild (alt.take: [youtu.be] )
So Young
New Faces
Jump on Top of me

This is my Voodoo Lounge...and it's great!!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-15 14:33 by KRiffhard.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: September 15, 2020 15:14

The BEST album they've ever made!!!!...minus of course the throw-on bonus track at the end of the CD. The cassette tape was pure magic!!! I wore that thing out!!! And I was sorely disappointed when I upgraded to CD to have another song after Thru and Thru.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: gotdablouse ()
Date: September 15, 2020 15:39

Quote
rollmops
Mick said in the 94 rolling stone Mag interview :
"But there were a lot of things that we wroe for VL that DW steered us away from : groove songs, African influences and things like that."

Any idea if eventually the Stones used those "grooves and African influences"?

I know that in 1976-77 when Mick and Keith worked with John Philips, African vibes showed up on some of the songs(Zulu Warrior). Did Mick wanted to do more of those type of songs?
World music/african grooves and the Rolling stones?
I don't know if there is a market there. I believe VL is a great record the way it is.
Rockandroll,
Mops

There is some stuff on CD3 of Voodoo Stew that was clearly a lot more adventurous, like Bump And Ride, Middle of the Sea, Monsoon Ragoon, Zulu, Samba, etc...not terribly convincing, you can see why Don Was nipped it in the bud !

@Doxa - thanks for digging up the detailed quote, there's some stuff from decades agao that I just remember like that, not sure why ;-)

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: loog droog ()
Date: September 15, 2020 16:04

Just a note here:

My first thought when I read this subject was, "Huh???"

When you say "The Band" instead of "the band," it reads like you're talking about those guys who recorded in a basement with Dylan at Big Pink.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 15, 2020 18:59

(Don Was is) definitely anti-groove. Charlie and I worked on a lot of groove tunes that never made it on to the record. That was the one thing I was slightly disappointed by.

- Mick Jagger, May 1994

I'm certainly not anti-groove, just anti-groove without substance, in the context of this album. They had a number of great grooves. But it was like, OK, what goes on top of it? Where does it go? I just felt that it's not what people were looking for from the Stones. I was looking for a sign that they can great real serious about this, still play better than anybody and write better than anybody.

- Don Was, May 1994

[timeisonourside.com]


Out of the studio recordings from those boot boxes I recall about 5 tracks that really sounded killer that they apparently didn't finish. Ivy League (the studio recording with harmonica is Hold On You apparently - [www.youtube.com]). I thought was fantastic. It may just be an element but Living In A Ghost Town reminded me of this tune.

You Got It Made, of course. Make It Now is nice. Get It Made is interesting but it might be a bit too close to a MAIN OFFENDER leftover.

There are a few others but finding them on Youtube Music is basically - I could drive to Pensacola faster and that's 5 hours away.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: KRiffhard ()
Date: September 15, 2020 21:49

Quote
GasLightStreet
(Don Was is) definitely anti-groove. Charlie and I worked on a lot of groove tunes that never made it on to the record. That was the one thing I was slightly disappointed by.

- Mick Jagger, May 1994

I'm certainly not anti-groove, just anti-groove without substance, in the context of this album. They had a number of great grooves. But it was like, OK, what goes on top of it? Where does it go? I just felt that it's not what people were looking for from the Stones. I was looking for a sign that they can great real serious about this, still play better than anybody and write better than anybody.

- Don Was, May 1994

[timeisonourside.com]


Out of the studio recordings from those boot boxes I recall about 5 tracks that really sounded killer that they apparently didn't finish. Ivy League (the studio recording with harmonica is Hold On You apparently - [www.youtube.com]). I thought was fantastic. It may just be an element but Living In A Ghost Town reminded me of this tune.

You Got It Made, of course. Make It Now is nice. Get It Made is interesting but it might be a bit too close to a MAIN OFFENDER leftover.

There are a few others but finding them on Youtube Music is basically - I could drive to Pensacola faster and that's 5 hours away.

Just like Love is strong aka Wicked as it seems part. II

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 16, 2020 04:11

I started that one. To me, it's intimately related to Wicked As It Seems, which I did last year. All of our songs are like... this one's the cousin of that one. They're all offshoots of themes and motifs.

- Keith Richards, 1994

[timeisonourside.com]

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: LeonidP ()
Date: September 16, 2020 04:32

The Storm, Jump On Top Of Me, I'm Gonna Drive ... all 3 would have been great on the album! But still, all 3 are great to have as b-sides, just as equally, imo.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: longlongwinter ()
Date: September 16, 2020 05:05

I remember I used to have a documentary I taped from 1994 which was about the making of the album. It had them in Ronnie's studio with a clip of blinded by rainbows but one part was Keith and Ron and maybe Mick, others all in the booth and Keith and Ron were harmonizing on some song I have never heard since, not even in outtakes. It went something like 'What it is, what it is, what it is' I think, not sure, Anyone remember this?

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Paulhanrahan ()
Date: September 16, 2020 05:13

Hopefully the PC crew don't shoot me down. Does anyone remember the dialogue (on Stew, Residue etc) between Keith and Ronnie which culminates with Ronnie saying "It's a tall order for 2 queers"!? Referring to himself and Keith "taking on" The Supremes and The Temptations.Very funny.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: KRiffhard ()
Date: September 16, 2020 08:13

Quote
Paulhanrahan
Hopefully the PC crew don't shoot me down. Does anyone remember the dialogue (on Stew, Residue etc) between Keith and Ronnie which culminates with Ronnie saying "It's a tall order for 2 queers"!? Referring to himself and Keith "taking on" The Supremes and The Temptations.Very funny.

(Intro and outro) You Got it made
[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-16 08:13 by KRiffhard.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: wonderboy ()
Date: September 16, 2020 15:26

Pretty simple, really. They had some good 'grooves', which I take to be sketches and instrumentals, and Don Was wanted them to write good lyrics and turn them into songs. Maybe add a middle part. But Jagger resisted. Over time he's developed this strange habit of wanting to write/record a song in one day. But those songs he wrote in one day for this record, like Jump on Top of Me, are just filler.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: September 16, 2020 15:30

Quote
KRiffhard
Quote
Paulhanrahan
Hopefully the PC crew don't shoot me down. Does anyone remember the dialogue (on Stew, Residue etc) between Keith and Ronnie which culminates with Ronnie saying "It's a tall order for 2 queers"!? Referring to himself and Keith "taking on" The Supremes and The Temptations.Very funny.

(Intro and outro) You Got it made
[youtu.be]

Yes, it is funny. Both seem very high/drunk.

Ronnie asks "Where are we, Keith"?

Keith replies "At the corner of walk and don't walk".....

My version calls it "Studio fun with Ron and Keith".

"No Anchovies, Please"

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: September 16, 2020 15:31

Yeah, mine's from Brian Jones, but I like all eras of the band.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: GasLightStreet ()
Date: September 16, 2020 17:07

Quote
KRiffhard
Quote
Paulhanrahan
Hopefully the PC crew don't shoot me down. Does anyone remember the dialogue (on Stew, Residue etc) between Keith and Ronnie which culminates with Ronnie saying "It's a tall order for 2 queers"!? Referring to himself and Keith "taking on" The Supremes and The Temptations.Very funny.

(Intro and outro) You Got it made
[youtu.be]

Great documentation as to why the Stones take so damn long to make an album!

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: maumau ()
Date: September 16, 2020 18:20

Quote
gotdablouse
There is some stuff on CD3 of Voodoo Stew that was clearly a lot more adventurous, like Bump And Ride, Middle of the Sea, Monsoon Ragoon, Zulu, Samba, etc...not terribly convincing, you can see why Don Was nipped it in the bud !

Feel quite the opposite, I love those "ideas" on Voodoo Stew, I see what Mick's mean though I dont know what he/they would have made of them. As gritty and unripe as they are they sound very promising to my ear. Wish Mick would go back to the can they have been trashed in and give them another chance now.

Take out Sweethearts, Blinded by rainbows, Baby break it down and Suck on the jugular and put those in = a great groovy funky album.
If I think about it: the words "missed opportunity" comes to mind



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-09-16 18:34 by maumau.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Elmo Lewis ()
Date: September 16, 2020 18:46

Quote
Elmo Lewis
Yeah, mine's from Brian Jones, but I like all eras of the band.

Oooops, wrong thread.

"No Anchovies, Please"

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Testify ()
Date: September 16, 2020 18:54

I think that any album, seen in retrospect by the authors, you would change it, the only exception is if it was a very successful album. I think that immediately after the release of the album they would do it differently.
It's normal ... that's why I never give much importance to artists' opinions on their albums.
I think VL was a great album, well played and I love all the songs, however due to its retro nature, you can't do two in a short time, it's no coincidence that the next album (BTcool smiley has deviated considerably .
In my opinion it was the right album at the right time.
In VL the band worked very well together, and it was a throwback to the old days.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: VoodooLounge13 ()
Date: September 16, 2020 20:21

Quote
Testify
I think that any album, seen in retrospect by the authors, you would change it, the only exception is if it was a very successful album. I think that immediately after the release of the album they would do it differently.
It's normal ... that's why I never give much importance to artists' opinions on their albums.
I think VL was a great album, well played and I love all the songs, however due to its retro nature, you can't do two in a short time, it's no coincidence that the next album (BTcool smiley has deviated considerably .
In my opinion it was the right album at the right time.
In VL the band worked very well together, and it was a throwback to the old days.


thumbs upthumbs up

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: Kennedy ()
Date: September 16, 2020 20:30

I dusted off VL just recently and was surprised at how well it holds up.

By far their best work in the modern era (mid 80s to current) in my opinion.

Re: Conjecture Within The Band re Voodoo Lounge Track Inclusions
Posted by: KRiffhard ()
Date: September 16, 2020 22:16

"I like The Storm, which is the first B-side. I'd hoped that was going to be on the album, but you can't have everything.
Ron Wood, 1994 (https://www.timeisonourside.com/SOTheStorm.html)

You were so right Ronnie!!!!

[youtu.be]



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