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Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: June 28, 2020 03:14

I got 'Through the Past Darkly' on Japanese SHM CD. Totally impressed. I didn't realize the selling point is that the CDs are printed on Super Hard Material. Plus they must be using good 'masters'. They're comparable, sometimes better, than the Blu Ray discs I've been getting. (Exile is wonderful on Blu Ray audio).

Does anyone else have experiences with these discs? I'm thinking of post ABKCO material. Maybe a Greatest Hits package to get the most bang for my buck. They can be prohibitively expensive, just like the Blu Ray discs. But, when price, and selection meet, it's very entertaining. It's so good that the fidelity is too much for some older tracks. They weren't designed to be heard this way. I see that the Stones' first album is available on SHM CD at a doable price, but I'm afraid their earliest work would be lost on the advanced technology.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: Kennedy ()
Date: June 28, 2020 05:30

I grabbed most of the post ABKCO releases on Japanese SHM/SACD a couple years ago.

Well worth it if you have the equipment for it. Black & Blue and Emotional Rescue really shine in this format. Audiophile grade.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: Toru A ()
Date: June 28, 2020 08:08

They produce more color hues than can ever been heard.

It may be stereotypical but I love Made In The Shade on SHM CD.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: June 28, 2020 09:18

Quote
Toru A
They produce more color hues than can ever been heard.

It may be stereotypical but I love Made In The Shade on SHM CD.


Makes sense. Broad array of songs, more entertainment.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 28, 2020 13:18

The problem with post-ABKCO SHM CDs in Japan is - different series came with different mastering. I.e. there are with Japanese 'flat transfers' from UK original analogue master tapes and with infamous brickwalled Polydor 2009 remaster. The former are good, the latter are bad. You know, no SHM and no HD cutting will help bad mastering.

If you are for redbook (16/44), here is the list of SHM-platinum CDs. These are equivalents to SHM-SACD (DSD downsampled to redbook) mentioned by Kennedy
Name Catalog# EAN
SF UICY-40011 4988005788368
EOMS UICY-40001 4988005782113
GHS UICY-40021 4988005791726
IORR UICY-40031 4988005798343
BAB UICY-40022 4988005791733
LYL UICY-40032/3 4988005798350
SG UICY-40012 4988005788375
ER UICY-40062 4988005816580
TY UICY-40002 4988005782120
SL UICY-40052 4988005811578
UC UICY-40072 4988005825520
DW UICY-40067 4988005821058
SW UICY-40162 4988031125410
FP UICY-40163 4988031125427

These are limited edition usual SHM-CD with the same mastering
Name Catalog# EAN
SF UICY-75886 4988005788467
EOMS UICY-75762 4988005782212
GHS UICY-75931 4988005791825
IORR UICY-76017 4988005798442
BAB UICY-75932 4988005791832
LYL UICY-76018 4988005798459
SG UICY-75887 4988005788474
ER UICY-76160 4988005816634
TY UICY-75763 4988005782229
SL UICY-76096 4988005811677
UC UICY-76357 4988005825575
DW UICY-76214 4988005821102
SW UICY-77613 4988031125434
FP UICY-77614 4988031125441

If you see different catalog number - that is 2009 remaster.
Be ready to shell off some $30-$40 per disc before S&H.

The recent compilations Made In The Shade [UICY-78938] (sorry Toru A), Rewind [UICY-78941], Time Waits For No One [UICY-78939] and Spanish version of Sticky Fingers [UICY-78937] came with 2009 remaster. Nothing can help those.
Sucking in the 70's [UICY-78940] with Virgin remaster 2005.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Date: June 28, 2020 14:15

What is "FP"?

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 28, 2020 14:30

Quote
DandelionPowderman
What is "FP"?
Flashpoint

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: June 28, 2020 14:30

Quote
ironbelly

Flashpoint

On 2-Dec-2015 Universal Music Japan released a DSD-Remaster of Flashpoint (UICY-40163) on Platinum-SHM-CD.

At the same time they also released a DSD-Remaster of Steel Wheels on Platinum-SHM-CD (UICY-40162). But the Remaster is a matter of personal taste - [iorr.org] .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-28 14:50 by Irix.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: timbernardis ()
Date: June 28, 2020 14:47

What is the connection between SHM and SACD?

For the Abkco catalog, is there anything better sounding than the 2002 SACD releases?


plexi

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 28, 2020 14:58

Quote
timbernardis
What is the connection between SHM and SACD?

For the Abkco catalog, is there anything better sounding than the 2002 SACD releases?


plexi
SHM - is material. Something special and different from polycarbonate that is used for regular CDs. It is advertised that SHM material allows lower number of errors and stands aging better. I.e. better quality media.
SACD - signal coding, format of audio information storage. It is one of High Resolution formats. Regular reddbook CD is 16 bits/44.1 kHz. SACD is 1 bit / 2.82MHz. I.e. better sound treatment.

SHM-SACD is a marketing trick for audiophiles winking smiley. In theory SHM-SACD supposed to sound the best among other digital media.

Is there anything better than 2002 SACD for ABKCO catalog? Yes, some old West German London CDs from 1984-1986 that utilized flat transfers of the master tapes made on MFSL equipment.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: June 28, 2020 15:01

Quote
timbernardis

For the Abkco catalog, is there anything better sounding than the 2002 SACD releases?

Yes: the DSD-Files (Bob-Ludwig-Master) of the 2016 Mono-Box, 2017 TSMR, 2018 BB, 2019 LIB -- [Store.AcousticSounds.com] .

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: Irix ()
Date: June 28, 2020 15:35

Quote
ironbelly

SHM-SACD is a marketing trick for audiophiles.

It's also typical Japanese perfection (SHM -> better shaped pits). As a next step Universal Music Japan should maybe re-issue the SACDs with UHQ-Material - [Forums.SteveHoffman.tv] .

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: lamemodem2 ()
Date: June 29, 2020 20:15

What about the UIGY-9000 series of SHM releases in 2011 and 2012? Are those flat transfers as well? The liner notes on the ones I have say "DSD transferred from analogue master tapes by Mick McKenna and Richard Whittaker at the FX Copyroom, 2011." They don't say "flat transferred from UK original analogue master tapes" like the platinum liner notes.

I also have a mini-LP release of Emotional Rescue from Japan that is TOCP-66457. Any ideas on that that's about? I think it's from 2005.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: floodonthepage ()
Date: June 29, 2020 21:11

I bought SHM-CD "It's Only Rock n Roll" for the slower 'Fingerprint File'. I still can't get used to it though!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-30 20:12 by floodonthepage.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 29, 2020 22:09

Quote
lamemodem2
What about the UIGY-9000 series of SHM releases in 2011 and 2012? Are those flat transfers as well? The liner notes on the ones I have say "DSD transferred from analogue master tapes by Mick McKenna and Richard Whittaker at the FX Copyroom, 2011." They don't say "flat transferred from UK original analogue master tapes" like the platinum liner notes.

I also have a mini-LP release of Emotional Rescue from Japan that is TOCP-66457. Any ideas on that that's about? I think it's from 2005.
UIGY-9000 series from 2011-2012 are original editions/transfers in SACD format (flat transfers). However, the discs (unlike ABKCO 2002 SACD-hybrid editions) were single layer. I.e. these discs have HD layer only, not compatible with regular CD players.

Later, SACD/DSD transfer was downsampled to regular reddbook format and re-issued that way. I gave the list above. I believe "UK original analogue master tapes" was a marketing trick. The initial DSD transfer was the same.

TOCP-66457 is re-issue of VJCP-25117 (1994). It came with so called Virgin mastering made by Bob Ludwig. Actually, all Rolling Stones Records era albums re-issued between 1994 and 2005 contain the very same A/D transfer and were mastered by Bob Ludwig.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2020-06-30 00:00 by ironbelly.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: June 30, 2020 00:06

I tried to compare SACD/DSD Stones cuts against the SHM-CDs, but it doesn't work. You can't download the SHM songs and get the same experience when you transfer it to a burned DVD. That polycarbonate results doesn't transfer. I'll have to simply put one CD in, listen to it, take it out, put in the other CD.

I can't imagine 'Sittin' On a Fence' sounding any better than it does on SHM. I remember an audible hiss on the 2002 SACD remaster version. And 'Honky Tonk Women' is clean, compared to the version I remember from Hot Rocks.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: lamemodem2 ()
Date: June 30, 2020 01:22

Quote
ironbelly
UIGY-9000 series from 2011-2012 are original editions/transfers in SACD format (flat transfers). However, the discs (unlike ABKCO 2002 SACD-hybrid editions) were single layer. I.e. these discs have HD layer only, not compatible with regular CD players.

Later, SACD/DSD transfer was downsampled to regular reddbook format and re-issued that way. I gave the list above. I believe "UK original analogue master tapes" was a marketing trick. The initial DSD transfer was the same.

TOCP-66457 is re-issue of VJCP-25117 (1994). It came with so called Virgin mastering made by Bob Ludwig. Actually, all Rolling Stones Records era albums re-issued between 1994 and 2005 contain the very same A/D transfer and were mastered by Bob Ludwig.

Very cool, thank you for the info.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 30, 2020 02:02

>"It's Only Rock n Roll" for the slower 'Fingerprint File'


Um, what? Slower Fingerprint File? Sorry if this is general knowledge, but I never heard of any such thing. Care to share the history? Do you mean the normal track slowed down, or a slower version? And this is hidden on one or more releases of the LP/CD?

thanks
jb

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: georgelicks ()
Date: June 30, 2020 02:52

The original version available of Fingerprint File on most releases was mastered at a faster speed than the original recording, 6:33 vs 7:01. The version of the song mastered at the correct slower speed was released on the Japanese SHM-SACD.

It's on Youtube too:
[www.youtube.com]

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 30, 2020 03:49

You mean on the original release of IORR it was mastered fast? Thats the only one I have or have heard to my knowledge. That sounds correct though, it always did sound speeded up to me.

But to reissue it in "correct" form on an obscure issue seems pretty weird. But then there have been numerous instances of mastering alt takes and oddities so its plausible.

I will check it out on youtube, I always liked that song. Especially the version from 75 LA one night or another. Some slashing guitar riffs in there.

jb

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 30, 2020 03:55

Well thats something.

Sounds better slowed down for sure.

Learn something new every day!

Thanks

jb

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: 24FPS ()
Date: June 30, 2020 08:31

Wow. That extra thirty or so seconds makes a big difference. A different song almost. The 'original', on the album, sounds more insistent and paranoid than the 'expanded' version. But you can hear a lot of little instrumental parts that stand out more when not being sped by. I kept thinking I was hearing two bass tracks at different times. Mick Taylor could play bass, but I swear his fingers fumble on a few places. Thanks for the track.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 30, 2020 11:39

Quote
24FPS
I tried to compare SACD/DSD Stones cuts against the SHM-CDs, but it doesn't work. You can't download the SHM songs and get the same experience when you transfer it to a burned DVD. That polycarbonate results doesn't transfer. I'll have to simply put one CD in, listen to it, take it out, put in the other CD.

I can't imagine 'Sittin' On a Fence' sounding any better than it does on SHM. I remember an audible hiss on the 2002 SACD remaster version. And 'Honky Tonk Women' is clean, compared to the version I remember from Hot Rocks.
Would you kindly clarify what particular edition of 'Through the Past Darkly' on Japanese SHM CD you are talking about? Is it UICY-79023 (2019) with UK track list? If yes, you are talking about different mastering, not the one that was used in 2002. Most probably, initial A/D DSD transfer was the same (2002) but remastering was done in 2019 (according to cdjapan advertising page). Unless they made new transfer and remaster in Japan for this edition.

Quote
jbwelda
But to reissue it in "correct" form on an obscure issue seems pretty weird.
jb
I would not call Japanese SHM-SACD and two SHM-CD editions obscure. They were well known and documented. Those were Japanese-only releases. A usual business for our boys to make extra cash.
The shame is that the rest of the world is forced to listen to brickwalled 2009 UM remaster while there is properly made flat transfer of original tapes.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: glimmertwin1 ()
Date: June 30, 2020 14:11

Japanese know how to make cds.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: floodonthepage ()
Date: June 30, 2020 20:14

The SHM-CD "It's Only Rock n Roll" also has a longer "Time Waits for No One" (no fade out) I believe?

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 30, 2020 20:44

Quote
floodonthepage
The SHM-CD "It's Only Rock n Roll" also has a longer "Time Waits for No One" (no fade out) I believe?
Yes. But not all of them. Only those that originated from 2011 DSD flat transfer from original master tapes by Mike McKenna and Richard Whittaker at the FX Copyroom.

There are SHM-CD editions of "It's Only Rock n Roll" with regular brickwalled 2009 UM remaster.

BTW, discogs is less than helpful in the matter of identification because the guys who fill the form on the discogs just copy-paste from one release to another. One should be extremely careful purchasing those countless UICY editions. Some of them are not good.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: floodonthepage ()
Date: June 30, 2020 21:02

Quote
ironbelly
Quote
floodonthepage
The SHM-CD "It's Only Rock n Roll" also has a longer "Time Waits for No One" (no fade out) I believe?
Yes. But not all of them. Only those that originated from 2011 DSD flat transfer from original master tapes by Mike McKenna and Richard Whittaker at the FX Copyroom.

There are SHM-CD editions of "It's Only Rock n Roll" with regular brickwalled 2009 UM remaster.

BTW, discogs is less than helpful in the matter of identification because the guys who fill the form on the discogs just copy-paste from one release to another. One should be extremely careful purchasing those countless UICY editions. Some of them are not good.

Yikes! Mine indeed has the no fade TWFNO, as well as the slower Fingerprint File of course...and very elaborate packaging. I bought it straight from Japan. I feel like I want to wear gloves when opening it/playing it as it's so nice! Anyway, it seems it is truly the 2011 flat transfer, it sounds like. Do you know if the '09 SHM-CD/UM remasters still have the slowed Fingerprint File?

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: June 30, 2020 21:14

Quote
floodonthepage
Quote
ironbelly
Quote
floodonthepage
The SHM-CD "It's Only Rock n Roll" also has a longer "Time Waits for No One" (no fade out) I believe?
Yes. But not all of them. Only those that originated from 2011 DSD flat transfer from original master tapes by Mike McKenna and Richard Whittaker at the FX Copyroom.

There are SHM-CD editions of "It's Only Rock n Roll" with regular brickwalled 2009 UM remaster.

BTW, discogs is less than helpful in the matter of identification because the guys who fill the form on the discogs just copy-paste from one release to another. One should be extremely careful purchasing those countless UICY editions. Some of them are not good.

Yikes! Mine indeed has the no fade TWFNO, as well as the slower Fingerprint File of course...and very elaborate packaging. I bought it straight from Japan. I feel like I want to wear gloves when opening it/playing it as it's so nice! Anyway, it seems it is truly the 2011 flat transfer, it sounds like. Do you know if the '09 SHM-CD/UM remasters still have the slowed Fingerprint File?
UM 2009 remaster has regular speed-up version of FF and TWFNO with fade. Brickwalled to DR6. I have no pleasurable explanation why they re-issued this remaster on SHM-CD.

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: jbwelda ()
Date: June 30, 2020 23:19

Obscure. Like when it takes two paragraphs to explain and pinpoint "good" versions versus "bad" versions of the same release. Thats pretty obscure to me, and incredibly tangled.

But thanks for the info, it is very interesting. I may try to untangle it enough to get my hands on the good version of IORR for these two rarities. At 35$ or more a disk, though, I want to be pretty certain what it is I am buying.

These do play on a regular CD machine, right? Or do you need a dedicated player?

Finally, is Rolling Stones Now available as a significant upgrade to the original Decca LP or the 70s Japanese LPs? If so, how does it sound? That is one of their early albums I always thought sounded exceptional.

jb

Re: Stones on SHM - CDs - any suggestions?
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: July 1, 2020 00:27

Quote
jbwelda
Obscure. Like when it takes two paragraphs to explain and pinpoint "good" versions versus "bad" versions of the same release. Thats pretty obscure to me, and incredibly tangled.

But thanks for the info, it is very interesting. I may try to untangle it enough to get my hands on the good version of IORR for these two rarities. At 35$ or more a disk, though, I want to be pretty certain what it is I am buying.

These do play on a regular CD machine, right? Or do you need a dedicated player?

Finally, is Rolling Stones Now available as a significant upgrade to the original Decca LP or the 70s Japanese LPs? If so, how does it sound? That is one of their early albums I always thought sounded exceptional.

jb
UICY-40031 and UICY-76017 are compatible with any regular CD player
UIGY-9069 - SACD player only

I have no idea about comparison between recent CDs and old LPs. That is always a tricky question. I think both 2002 SACD-hybrid and disc from 2016 In Mono box sound very good. But is it an upgrade to LP? I have no answer to that.

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