Excellent post. It'll take me a while to digest and try to respond, but I have to take issue with one small point. Like yourself, I'm also a HUGE Springsteen fan. (I think we're a minority...a lot of people don't like both Bruce and the Stones). Anyway, while Bruce isn't playing Born to Run on the Devils and Dust acoustic tour, you'd be hard pressed to come up with the last time that song wasn't played during an E Street Band show. A better example might have been Rosalita, which wasn't played regularly on the Reunion Tour or The Rising Tour (until the US Stadium leg towards the end of the tour).

Ok then.. "hungry heart" - a well known song to the masses (even more so than 'Rosie') that was somewhat sporadically played on the Rising tour..

I'm sure you'd agree with me that the D&D shows havent been too diminished just because he's played next to nothing from "Born to run" on them...although obviously a 'theatre' tour of acoustic shows attracts a different type of fan than a band show in a stadium (but think what he could have charged for tickets to those theatre shows. There were only 9,000 tickets available for the entire UK, after all. he could have charged three times as much and still sold out easily. But didnt.)

We don't have to wait and see what the ticket price in Europe will be. I can predict it. Because it is going by the market money. U2 asked for approx 100 dollars i.e. around 80 Euro in Norway this summer. It sold out in half an hour. A venue of 40,000 people. Valle Hovin. The one the Stones will play next summer. A lot - I mean thousands - of these 100 dollars tickets were purchased by scalpers - and sold on at 200 dollars (1300 norwegian kroner) i.e. double price. And the people who bought these scalper tickets said proudly on the tv news it was all worth it. That was the real value of the ticket.

So the Stones will ask for that. Something like 100 - 120 Euro. Depending on the place and the seat in the venue. In Spain it will be 60 Euro I guess. In UK it will be 200 pounds top price i.e. 300 euro. For the rest of western and central Europe I would guess it will be 100-120 Euro. I.e. that is what people are willing to pay in Europe. No more. No less.

PS. We are not talking about a boy band that broke the news last year, with teen-ager fans having no more than 10 euro in their pockets. We are talking about the world's most popular still touring rock band. The Stones. Everybody want to see them. Except for a few ones here who complain about boring set lists. People are paying the real value of the ticket. In Europe it will cost the equivalent of what many people burn on beers during one week-end. And with the Stones you don't get a hang-over!

Bjornulf

bv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PS. We are not talking about a boy band that broke
> the news last year, with teen-ager fans having no
> more than 10 euro in their pockets. We are talking
> about the world's most popular still touring rock
> band. The Stones. Everybody want to see them.
> Except for a few ones here who complain about
> boring set lists.


quite a silly sweeping generalisation, if you ask me

Rock n roll has nothing to do with elitism based on income - and no one (least of all myself) is seriously arguing that quality should come cheap. Its not as black and white as that.

and wanting to see them (as 99.9% of us here do) and the desire for them to reach within themselves artistically a bit more than taking the easy option arent mutually exclusive


People are paying the real value
> of the ticket. In Europe it will cost the
> equivalent of what many people burn on beers
> during one week-end.

speak for yourself...LOL


And with the Stones you don't
> get a hang-over!

Indeed - but, as we've discussed before, the cost of pissing out the beer you consume at the gig costs you 3-4 times as much money (in terms of how much of the show you miss) than it did to buy it in the first place

Real Madrid do NOT charge much more than other teams just because they're 'big'

in fact. you can get in to their games cheaper than some shit team in England such as Tottenham

BV, do you think that by charging 120€ you'll keep the scalpers away? Because that's your point. I can't remember fans complaining a lot last tour (tickets from 70€ - to 95€ FOS) not getting tickets. Maybe U2 is a better selling act nowadays?!

andy js

Real Madrid do NOT charge much more than other teams just because they're 'big'

in fact. you can get in to their games cheaper than some shit team in England such as Tottenham


whats your problem with English teams.....Who rattled your cage..I disagree though- we then go onto exchange rate and all that and of course the pound is far stronger than that Euro obviously. But the fact is I reckon Madrid's prices are higher than say a lower team in La Liga..simple as that. Its fair game.. Winner takes all ( come on I am a Tottenahm supproterand their not shite)who do you support



The fact is the stones are that much better than you average Bon Jovi and cannot generate any audience to that of the stones.


As for getting a younger audience..please.... you grow into the stones.. I am part of that "younger audience" but struth I am telling you its rare these days. Putting the prices down cause of that is bullshit they have done their screeming in Halls malarkey and besides it won,t happen simple.

I cannot blame the Stones or Cohl for charging what scalpers had been charging and getting. My only regret is that it does prohibit a lot of people from going and in their place we tend to find more than a handful of stodgy business and there-to-be-seen types.

Ironically, I've seen more teens at the shows on this tour than in the previous two or three (Licks, No Security and Babylon), although they are still a small minority. I've talked to quite a few of them and not only do they love the Stones, it is also hip to like the Stones...similar to the way Johnny Cash started to appeal to a new set of young fans late in his career....and they all love the show and say its the best they've ever seen.

It's unfortunate that many of them can't afford to go at $160 to $450 a pop for a decent seat. How cool would it be if they hung around a few cities on the tour an extra day or two and did a less expensive under 21 show? No beer served because everyone is under 21 anyway, and I cannot help but think that it would be one of the most satisfying shows for the band...to look out and see those kids going nuts. A handful of these would probably give their merchandising a kick too...

If you want a low price on Stones tickets then you must answer this:

1. If the Stones ticket cost 25 euro/dollar. How would you sell the tickets? And how would you prevent scalpers from getting any of these tickets.

2. If tickets sold out at 25 euro/dollars in your home town. And you did not get any ticket. How much would you be willing to pay for your Stones ticket to see them playing in your home town?

Bjornulf

-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want a low price on Stones tickets then you
> must answer this:
>
> 1. If the Stones ticket cost 25 euro/dollar. How
> would you sell the tickets? And how would you
> prevent scalpers from getting any of these
> tickets.

Easy: sell tikets by name, like airplane tikets. This is happening only now in football here in Italy, and it works.

> 2. If tickets sold out at 25 euro/dollars in your
> home town. And you did not get any ticket. How
> much would you be willing to pay for your Stones
> ticket to see them playing in your home town?

When it's over, it's over. If you know that you will not have a chance to buy tikets once they are sold out, then you will shoot all your bullets before this happens (for example offering 1000 dollars to take the place of someone standing ahead of you in the queue!

C

I saw Springsteen in Paris this summer and the amount of tickets I was allowed to purchase was a maximum of two. My name was printed on both tickets and I had to produce an ID when I attended the show. This system worked fine for me and the scalpers couldn't get their hands on the the usual great number of tix. Sure the scalpers could of course sell one of the tickets for a huge amount of money, but in that case the scalper would have to go through security with the buyer of the ticket, i.e the buyer could not enter the show by himself. This system seems to be the normal procedure at club gigs for the Stones so why not use it at stadium shows as well?

bv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If you want a low price on Stones tickets then you
> must answer this:
>
> 1. If the Stones ticket cost 25 euro/dollar. How
> would you sell the tickets? And how would you
> prevent scalpers from getting any of these
> tickets.

What Liddas said is one way

what Springsteen did on the Reunion tour is another - ie make the first xxx number of rows will-call only with a two-ticket limit (basically like they do with the theatre shows)...the people who collected their tickets were then escorted to their seats to prevent them going outside and re-selling to scalpers

If scalpers and brokers cant get their hands on the best seats then its not worth their while. Basically, treat, say,the first 1500-2000 seats in any venue like you would a theatre show (will-call, wristbands, etc). If it worked for those shows, then it can work for larger ones too.

If the Stones really wanted to keep tickets away from these people, they could do it. Unfortunately they dont, and between themselves, Clear Channel. TM and the various brokers and agencies offering overpriced hotel/ticket packages they make a nice little extra profit out of the exploitation. To actually claim that theyre doing us a favour by charging double or triple normal prices "to beat scalpers" is an insult to one's intelligence.

Having a properly organised fan club allocation is another way of organising the sale of such tickets

No system is going to be 100% perfect, but it would be much fairer for genuine fans than the rip off farce that normally happens with the Stones and which seems so much worse with them than it does with everyone else.

If people cant get tickets through the normal, legitimate and fairest channels - thats tough. Demand exceeds supply, after all, but at least the system gives everyone a genuine chance. But its still a fairer system than having to pay three or four times over the odds because the band and their management arent interested in providing a level playing field for everyone.

You are a daydreamer if you want cheap tickets but still you don't want to tell me how much you are willing to pay for a ticket if it was sold out before you got one.

Bjornulf

"This system seems to be the normal procedure at club gigs for the Stones so why not use it at stadium shows as well?"

One of the dirty secrets of bands with a lot of tickets to sell and high maximum purchase amounts is that they turn the fans into surrogate Ticketmasters by putting the burden of unloading excess tickets on the fans (who try to sell to friends, relatives etc before taking a loss on Ebay or in the parking lot). Also, at least in L.A., Springsteen tickets went on sale about 2 weeks before the show.

If the Stones are going to use a will call/I.D. verification system for stadium shows then they can't go putting them on sale 6 months in advance. Like I REALLY know what I am doing or where I am going to be in 6 months. I held off on committing to shows in part because the Stones simply aren't the most important tour of the year for me this time.

bv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a daydreamer if you want cheap tickets but
> still you don't want to tell me how much you are
> willing to pay for a ticket if it was sold out
> before you got one.
>
> Bjornulf

well, I note you also didnt respond to the examples given (which you asked about) about fairer ways of ticket distribution

However, I didnt read that part of your question at first, but since you asked..


It depends on the show and how much spare cash I happen to have on me, and what other things take priority

where the show happens to be (you mentioned 'your hometown') isnt that important to me. Its still the same band. I dont care if its New York, London or Timbuktu

the smaller the show the better. I certainly wouldnt pay say £150 for a seat thats so far away that I'm watching a video screen for two hours. I'd pay that for a theatre show however I suppose, but I wouldnt pay that for a large scale show unless I was in the first few rows. And even then, I consider it excessive (what you consider 'cheap' in Norway might be considered quite expensive in most countries, dont forget)

Maybe you feel a compulsion to see a show, Bjornulf, that youre willing to pay what it takes to get a ticket. I don't. If I dont get in, its not the end of the world for me. I'll see a show somewhere else. Each of us has different priorities. It's called real life. For everyone, its a personal choice. It doesnt mean someone is 'cheap' because they dont feel its worth it when they have bills to pay.

and no, actually I'm not a daydreamer who wants 'cheap tickets' (it was you quoted a price of $25, not me) as I dont have a problem with Stones shows being a bit more expensive than most (which I've said countless times). Unfortunately it seems you cant seem to see any grey area between the two extremes of giving something away for next to nothing and being extortionate.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-28 19:08 by Gazza.

bv Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> You are a daydreamer if you want cheap tickets but
> still you don't want to tell me how much you are
> willing to pay for a ticket if it was sold out
> before you got one.
>
> Bjornulf


Speaking of "cheap" tickets, I have a single to the "sold out" Fresno show I can't even get $40 for. I suspect there will be less than half price tickets all over southern California. Just watching the prices plummet on Ebay indicates that. Hopefully I will work the true law of supply and demand to my advantage.

Most shows in Europe are open admission. One ticket. No difference between price and position. Hockenheim Germany 90,000 people same ticket. Valle Hovin Oslo 40,000 people same ticket. Ignore the VIP seats far away at double price. They are few and not interesting in this discussion. So you want to sell 45,000 pairs of Hockenheim tickets at a low price. And there are no seats. All standing. Like all over Europe. How would you prevent scalpers from buying these tickets?

Scalpers are buying 30% of ALL tickets in the US!!! And I get e-mail from fans almost every day saying they buy ALL their tickets from brokers (scalpers). They (the brokers) have a lot of people buying up tickets and they run a legal service in many states and countries.

You don't have to tell me the price of seeing a show. And you don't have to mix me into this discussion. I am just asking you this question, because that is the question every Stones fan will have in his mind when he did not get a ticket. He is only going to one show, they sold cheap tickets, scalpers took a lot, and you will now have to go to the black market or grey market i.e. the brokers to get your ticket. What are you willing to pay? Remember if you don't pay that price then you will not be able to see the Stones at all on the tour. What is the price you will pay to get your only ticket to this tour? That is what the scalper will charge you in cash... For his extra tickets...

Bjornulf

If they want to sell out Hockenheim, they get AC/DC or Metallica to open.

BV - you need a Fresno ticket?

BV,
A friend of mine couldn't get rid of a few spare tickets for the opening night in Munich last tour. Ok, he could for 10 € but then he'd rather keep them instead of letting someone in for 10€.

Thats the one advantage to high ticket prices - unless its first few rows the value starts dropping immedietly. I have been mostly paying $5-10 for tickets all year. Got into John Cale at UCLA last night for $10.

Munich: May be your friend was hiding in a tree or in the bushes but normally I have experienced Munich to be the place with the highest scalper tickets on any tour. Paid double price one tour and noticed high prices on another one. Even if it was raining heavily. Don't know about the last tour.

Fresno: Won't be there. Unfortunately.

Hockenheim: Stay in Mannheim. Take the train. Enjoy the show. In August next year. Great place to see them!

Last minute tickets: It is true that some times you can get tickets on show day after 7pm at half price or less but how many hard core fans have the balls to wait until then to even think about securing a ticket, knowing that Mick & Keith have been inside the building for hours already?

Bjornulf

Personally I have seen the Stones so many times I don't care if I see them again or not. I have no problem just drinking beer in the parking lot if a cheapie doesn't come my way. But the great thing about die hard fans is that they are easier to take advantage of.

It has been my experience as well that having spare tickets for stones concerts is a Bitch. For sure that's the case for stadium concerts. And no, I don't think he was hiding in the bushes.

If you can drink beer in the parking lot while the Stones are on inside then you must be a cool cat. I wish I could have that pleasure but my mind is twisted and it is telling me I should sell my house rather than drink beer outside - if needed.

Bjornulf

I have heard from industry sources that there will be "golden circle" tickets at all Stones shows worldwide. These are the $350 - $450 face tickets that we are seeing in the States. The tricky part is, the ticket price and size of the "golden circle" differs depending on the venue and anticipated demand. Thus, in MSG, where demand is high, virtually every ticket in the lower bowl is $454+. At MCI, the top price was $400, but every ticket on the floor was in the golder circle. Move to Fresno or Phoenix, and top price is $350, and the back half of the floor, including the sections near the B-State, is $160. The local promoters will do the same thing in Asia and Europe, you can count on it. I think that the "golden circle" will be smaller (maybe the first 15-20 rows, etc.), but just as expensive, if not more.

The GOLDEN CIRCLE trick does NOT work in Europe. During the LICKS tour they charged around 10-20 dollars/euro extra - not much money compared to the ticket price of around 100 - for the front pit "golden circle" of around 3000 people. They had a hard time getting these extra 10-20 dollars. I remember in Zaragoza Spain the front pit of some 3000 people capacity had max 50 people - I am not lying this is the truth! - around half an hour before the show started. So they had to open up and let people in for free of course. Like they did at many other venues in Europe during Licks. I am sure they know about this by now. So asking for 300 dollars in the front will not happen in Europe. Remember it is all standing. No chairs. Not even 200. May be 100 max.

Bjornulf

I think they will do the Front of stage thing again in Europe as it worked quite well for my oppinion. They will be again seats I assume for UK as they can charge much higher ticketprices there than in the rest of the Continent.
But do not forget that lower ticket prices will result in less arenas and much more stadium shows. In the North America Arena shows are much more than Stadium shows.
This is always like that.

Dan, I have probably seen you many times outside shows, as I live in LA and do the same methods you do. I go to so many different shows, because I usually don't have to pay more than $20 outside. I saw John Cale at Amoeba on Wednesday, so I didn't go to UCLA last night. A friend of mine did and got a $40 ticket for free.

Some of the shows I have payed little for in the past few weeks are Robert Plant at the Wiltern for $20 for a $60 face ticket. Once in I slipped on my Wiltern wristband and walked right into the pit 15 minutes before he went on.

For Green Day at the Wiltern I was able to get a free VIP ticket outside.

I paid $15 to see Queen + Paul Rodgers at the Hollywood Bowl, then snuck into the Terrace box section.

On Sunday I exceeded what I wanted to pay to see Sheryl Crow at the Bowl, but bought a $125 garden box center seat for $20.

In all cases except Green Day, in retrospect, I bought too early, as I'm sure I could have got those same tickets for about $10 less for each had I waited just a little longer.

I will do the exact same thing for the Stones, though I'm willing to pay up to about $50 per ticket. At the Bowl, my plan is again to sneak into the Terrace box section, if not closer.

Those Terrace boxes look claustrophobia inducing to me. I scored a pair in F2 for Queen/Paul Rodgers for $99 cents plus $14.95 Fed Ex from a broker off Ebay. Couldnt even get rid of the extra so I traded the pair for a single 10 feet in front of me then snuck forward 13 rows. Stones I plan on just listening from outside unless I score a real deal because the sound there leaves a lot to be desired but its so close (I live in Burbank) that I might as well hang out. Since they have outdoor beer concessions I can party either way. If I make it to Anaheim or San Diego (both are still up in the air) then what I spend depends on location but surely not more than $40-50. Got Danzig tomorrow and Judas Priest/Rob Zombie/Anthrax on Sunday!