Tell Me :
Talk
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
and wait! SNL actually came up with a skit that was reasonably funny ?
I guess you don't watch it.
It wasn't even reasonably funny, that program stopped being funny 20 years ago. Sledgehammer deliveries, you can see them coming a mile off, crap timing, it's like watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
It was funny because these superfans were going on about the most obscure facts about the music stars they idolized and got unreasonably angry over small details they disagreed with and...
Oh, sorry.
Too close to home for some
Completely un-agreed.
They do 'get' it; in their own, particular way.
As a continental European, I'm really close to British humour, and I've been growing up with it for 50 odd years now. So I feel I did 'get' the original -
and while the American version is what it is: an American interpretation, and therefor quite different from "the Office" UK, they did touch the same nerves in that series...
And by doing so, they created what I consider to be one of the very best - and allow me to say, from a personal point of view: one of the very few really good - USA comedy series of this day & age.
Maybe I just don't 'get' USA comedy; so be it then - but "the Office" USA, I really really liked. And for all the right reasons.
I think its just that the comedy writers aren't there today in America, i mean so much great humour has come from America over the years, the list is just too long to mention all the greats, but i guess its hard these days because it's a no no to offend anyone, so the subject matter becomes very restricted and trivial, your're left with toilet comedy , bodily functions etc.
I totally got the clip about the parallel between us fans and the things we get uptight about, i just didn't think it particularly funny, and as for the American version of The Office i stick to what i said, the makers obviously didn't get the original, although as you said, it's good for what it is in it's own way, it's just that it has zero resemblance comedy wise to the original.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 13:02 by keithsman.
Haha, you should've seen the Finnish version of The Office...
I think the original British version is one of the best TV series I've ever seen. Pure brilliance. After seen it, the American version was rather lame. But that said, had I've never seen the original I am sure the American one would have made a huge impact on me.
But about the topic: does this mean that we would not hear from now on Keith Richards in public bashing Jagger, The Beatles, some of the contemporary artists, etc? What will happen to all those self-supremacy promoting claims of "if I just could get the boys in the studio", "Antennae's out all the time", "fvck MIck's demos, I have three dynamite riffs", "sure hell it won't be the last tour", "This is the best Stones yet" etc. How boring and non-tabloid-making Richards interviews will turn out to be from now on? More of that "I don't know", "I wouldn't hold my breath", etc.
But good for Keith, and especially for the people living and working with him. A nasty drunk is one of the worst people one can associate with.
And hey Riffie - do not go anywhere! Your one-sided, blinded Richards fanaticism belongs to the furniture of this place!
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 14:23 by Doxa.
I usually dont like discussing how the drugs, alcohol etc. affecting to the creativity or the story of The Stones (even though it has a big part in there for sure). For example, I tend to see the reason why Mick Taylor quitted the band more in terms of artistic reasons than that of 'trying to stay alive before it's too late'. But I do an exception here and tell the story of Keef in terms like that. I warn you - it will not be nice.
My simplified and overtly controversial picture is that the junkie era killed Keith's true brilliance in creativity. When getting there on dopeville he would make things like like "Gimme Shelter" and "Monkey Man" but when being there for some years the best he could come up with was like the 'by-numbers' riffs of "You Can't Rock me" and "Dance Little Sister". That's pretty normal story to see how the drugs effect - first they inspire one's muse, and then they kill it (and the person himself not seeing the difference). That some people see the latter songs as some sort of examples of excellence is simply a sign of the quality standard by the fans has also having gone downhill along the years and some sort of "the most elegantly wasted human being " picture taking the lead in judging Keith's doings. It's Da Man an sich people started to be more fond of.
After thankfully quitting the smack Keith compensated that with (mostly) drink. While the story of dopeville era is full of heroism and rock'n'roll folklore, making Keef the huge survivor and superman, the days of alcohol doing the talking is somehow totally ignored in man's tale. That it in reality turned the man into an aggressive thick head and conservative, trusting solely on his own alcohol-fuiled and powered intuition. One impossible to offer new ideas to or actually to co-work with seriously and fruitfully. Best we could get from him was some solo nightclub-sounding slow ballads, full of 'emotion' - that of an old drunk singing to his drink class and telling his story to anyone interested in ('yes, uncle Keith, that was awesome. Can we go now?'). Surely, there were diehard fanatics loving every move and praising the 'honest' and 'genuine' man. More Da Man per se. And surely there were always some lesser colleagues and yes-men to waste their time to work with the legend, but none of his old band mates any longer.
Like we have never heard Jagger complaining about Keith's junkie habits, we will not hear him telling his alcohol-fuiled years either. Is that loyalty to his old friend or just a smart move by business-wise, hard to say. We can only read between the lines or some Ronnie Wood or Bill Wyman, even Charlie Watts, revealing a bit more occasionally. Mostly Richards and his tale is the most protected myths in the history of rock'n'roll. And people love that myth (sometimes I feel like the whole story of the Stones and of rock music in general is somehow essentially connected to it that people are too afraid to reflect it in adult terms; we love having myths - losing them would be like losing something in us or something we want to believe on). But for the last 40 years or so 'Keef' is the biggest free-rider in the same history - no any other rock star or guitar god has so much appraisal and adoration by actually having done so little in terms of creativity and brilliance. And most of it 'under the influence' - what a priviledge! But it's Da Man an sich.
If this doesn't affect on Riffie coming back, and Dandie as well, none will do...
- Doxa, RSVP
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 17:33 by Doxa.
The future is unwritten but I like the next chapter.....
Interesting though, that in recent interviews Marianne has expressed regret about her long involvement with drugs (and drink). Of course, she is more inclined to open up about her feelings in interviews than Keith does.
In private, Keith may well have regrets...but maybe he needs (still) to protect his 'personna'.
Artistically and creatively, Marianne seems for some time to have been well ahead of both Mick and Keith. So maybe they could do with a bit more self introspection and give us some more adult lyrics and music to match.
Never too late.
*Is this the Marianne who just recently was quoted:
‘I still snort stuff now and then, sure’
Who does that?
Someone who used to be needle addicted to opiates?
Huh?
What is true I do not know.
CH is adult enough for me lyrically and musically. No songs of regret in the bunch....
There is only 1 song I will not play on ‘Crosseyed Heart’ and that is ‘Amnesia’
Who cares. Personally I’m procrastinating last minute errands.
However, Doxa, are you not on this occasion presenting too much of a one factor explanation of this band's development through major, medium and minor peaks and relative and sometimes absolute slumps, that is, with a focus on Keith's part of it. From your exposition it is as if, were it not for Keith's drug use, he would have contributed to creativity without any stops. And somehow you have, again on this occasion, abstracted from characterisic points of their development. Especially from what one may call their artistic turn that THEIR SATANIC MAJESTYS REQUEST paved the way for. Also, on the other hand, from the exhaustion that GOATS HEAD SOUP in its lethargy displays from musical innovation during the preceding years, for instance in one of Keith's best Keith sung songs," Coming Down Again". Later on, past their artistic period, there was still music made that instead of 'artistic, may be described as deeply inspirational. I am referring to the Pathe Marconi albums, of which Keith has his share. And when both Keith and Mick after that time period, influenced by their disagreements on material, the two of them do not write quite as good songs as in the past, one ought to be aware that the more reserved reception to their albums from their conservative buying public has contributed to take away incentives to be more active in music making.
In other words, Keith's use of drugs and alcohol has had its impact, I don't object, but in a richer context, which I have only alluded to. It is paradox for me to remind you, you know so very much more than me about these subjects. But you seem almost to have been intoxicated (!) by the perspective you chose.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 00:29 by Witness.
Well, I think the whole story of the (downhill of) creativity of the Stones in general and Keith in particular is much richer and complicated than I described above. Of course. What I did was to just emphasize one factor, and I really don't have any clue if anything I said holds court (or to what extent). It was just one consistent and coherent way (or attempt to that) to explain certain phenomenons we have wittnessed along the years. It was controversial for sure because for once I tried look the case without typical non-natural heroism involved in discussing the topic of Keith and drugs. Just a human, raw and naked perspective (without any glamour and myths) reflecting what drugs and booze does for one's behavior in the long run.
But like I said that's not the way I generally like seeing the Stones. For example, I much rather like to see Mick Jagger not wanting to co-work with Keith because Mick doesn't find Keith 'inspiring' enough (or for some other 'pure' artistic reasons) but not because of Keith's unbearable drunken behavior. The latter just sounds way too harsh, easy and 'naturalistic' explanation. Nor I don't like to see Keith or the Stones losing their true muse and focus after EXILE due to their heavy drugs use. I rather like to see them just running out of fresh ideas, them of completing everything they know and can by EXILE, and thereby having a 'natural' artistic downhill (or, if one likes, just getting old in basically young man's game). Or like with Keith, him by then having gotten about any sensible new idea from the open tuning that was somehow within the reach of his curious mind. Him just running out of bullets. Not that of him shooting most of his creative cells in his brains out. But I am afraid that that of trying to tell everything in pure artistic terms isn't satisfactory enough, and that one needs certain causal, non-musical stories to complete the picture.
I actually hate using the drug card in explaining anything in music, but sometimes I need to admit that it might have a real explanatory role in trying to understand their doings. Both positively and negatively. My story above stemmed out of that. But I hope anyone sees the hypothetical and over-simplifying (and, of course, rhetorical) character my story has. It wasn't written to be taken literally, but just to open up one possible perspective to consider.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 02:00 by Doxa.
The british version of the office is fantastic,its kinda like what would happen in a real office.people really do behave like that.I tried to watch the american version but didnt like it that much.just not the same as the british version.
Feel The Fear
And Do It Anyway
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 07:59 by mandu.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 16, 2018 17:21
Quote
Rip This
this Saturday Night Live skit perfectly sums up the conversation on the last 2 pages.....
[www.youtube.com]
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: December 16, 2018 17:42
Quote
35loveQuote
Rip This
this Saturday Night Live skit perfectly sums up the conversation on the last 2 pages.....
[www.youtube.com]
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Palace Revolution 2000
()
Date: December 16, 2018 18:01
Quote
35loveQuote
Rip This
this Saturday Night Live skit perfectly sums up the conversation on the last 2 pages.....
[www.youtube.com]
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
and wait! SNL actually came up with a skit that was reasonably funny ?
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Cooltoplady
()
Date: December 17, 2018 03:49
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000Quote
35loveQuote
Rip This
this Saturday Night Live skit perfectly sums up the conversation on the last 2 pages.....
[www.youtube.com]
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
and wait! SNL actually came up with a skit that was reasonably funny ?
I guess you don't watch it.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
diverseharmonics
()
Date: December 18, 2018 02:56
Holy Crap
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 18, 2018 12:53
Quote
Palace Revolution 2000Quote
35loveQuote
Rip This
this Saturday Night Live skit perfectly sums up the conversation on the last 2 pages.....
[www.youtube.com]
and ‘wait, he drinks?’
Heelarious!
and wait! SNL actually came up with a skit that was reasonably funny ?
It wasn't even reasonably funny, that program stopped being funny 20 years ago. Sledgehammer deliveries, you can see them coming a mile off, crap timing, it's like watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
MisterDDDD
()
Date: December 18, 2018 14:30
Quote
keithsman
It wasn't even reasonably funny, that program stopped being funny 20 years ago. Sledgehammer deliveries, you can see them coming a mile off, crap timing, it's like watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
It was funny because these superfans were going on about the most obscure facts about the music stars they idolized and got unreasonably angry over small details they disagreed with and...
Oh, sorry.
Too close to home for some
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
RoughJusticeOnYa
()
Date: December 18, 2018 14:40
Quote
keithsman
watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
Completely un-agreed.
They do 'get' it; in their own, particular way.
As a continental European, I'm really close to British humour, and I've been growing up with it for 50 odd years now. So I feel I did 'get' the original -
and while the American version is what it is: an American interpretation, and therefor quite different from "the Office" UK, they did touch the same nerves in that series...
And by doing so, they created what I consider to be one of the very best - and allow me to say, from a personal point of view: one of the very few really good - USA comedy series of this day & age.
Maybe I just don't 'get' USA comedy; so be it then - but "the Office" USA, I really really liked. And for all the right reasons.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Rip This
()
Date: December 18, 2018 15:00
hope to see some of you in Miami or jacksonville.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 05:28 by Rip This.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 05:28 by Rip This.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
keithsman
()
Date: December 19, 2018 00:47
Quote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
keithsman
watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
Completely un-agreed.
They do 'get' it; in their own, particular way.
As a continental European, I'm really close to British humour, and I've been growing up with it for 50 odd years now. So I feel I did 'get' the original -
and while the American version is what it is: an American interpretation, and therefor quite different from "the Office" UK, they did touch the same nerves in that series...
And by doing so, they created what I consider to be one of the very best - and allow me to say, from a personal point of view: one of the very few really good - USA comedy series of this day & age.
Maybe I just don't 'get' USA comedy; so be it then - but "the Office" USA, I really really liked. And for all the right reasons.
I think its just that the comedy writers aren't there today in America, i mean so much great humour has come from America over the years, the list is just too long to mention all the greats, but i guess its hard these days because it's a no no to offend anyone, so the subject matter becomes very restricted and trivial, your're left with toilet comedy , bodily functions etc.
I totally got the clip about the parallel between us fans and the things we get uptight about, i just didn't think it particularly funny, and as for the American version of The Office i stick to what i said, the makers obviously didn't get the original, although as you said, it's good for what it is in it's own way, it's just that it has zero resemblance comedy wise to the original.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 13:02 by keithsman.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 19, 2018 14:21
Quote
keithsman
as for the American version of The Office i stick to what i said, the makers obviously didn't get the original, although as you said, it's good for what it is in it's own way, it's just that it has zero resemblance comedy wise to the original.
Ok time to take Rip This advice, i'm off for a long while.
Haha, you should've seen the Finnish version of The Office...
I think the original British version is one of the best TV series I've ever seen. Pure brilliance. After seen it, the American version was rather lame. But that said, had I've never seen the original I am sure the American one would have made a huge impact on me.
But about the topic: does this mean that we would not hear from now on Keith Richards in public bashing Jagger, The Beatles, some of the contemporary artists, etc? What will happen to all those self-supremacy promoting claims of "if I just could get the boys in the studio", "Antennae's out all the time", "fvck MIck's demos, I have three dynamite riffs", "sure hell it won't be the last tour", "This is the best Stones yet" etc. How boring and non-tabloid-making Richards interviews will turn out to be from now on? More of that "I don't know", "I wouldn't hold my breath", etc.
But good for Keith, and especially for the people living and working with him. A nasty drunk is one of the worst people one can associate with.
And hey Riffie - do not go anywhere! Your one-sided, blinded Richards fanaticism belongs to the furniture of this place!
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 14:23 by Doxa.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: December 19, 2018 14:35
Imagine where The Stones would have been had Keith (and Ron) made this decision 30 years ago?
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: December 19, 2018 14:55
American versus English comedy. Lord Fry has an idea about this and I quite agree. As a Swede I have always been closer to the British comedy tradition. Maybe because we have been fed by the BBC here?
The Jewish American tradition is very witty though (thinking about The Marx brothers, Woody Allen and many more here). What do you think? Is Lord Fry right?
[www.youtube.com]
The Jewish American tradition is very witty though (thinking about The Marx brothers, Woody Allen and many more here). What do you think? Is Lord Fry right?
[www.youtube.com]
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 19, 2018 16:38
Quote
Stoneage
Imagine where The Stones would have been had Keith (and Ron) made this decision 30 years ago?
I usually dont like discussing how the drugs, alcohol etc. affecting to the creativity or the story of The Stones (even though it has a big part in there for sure). For example, I tend to see the reason why Mick Taylor quitted the band more in terms of artistic reasons than that of 'trying to stay alive before it's too late'. But I do an exception here and tell the story of Keef in terms like that. I warn you - it will not be nice.
My simplified and overtly controversial picture is that the junkie era killed Keith's true brilliance in creativity. When getting there on dopeville he would make things like like "Gimme Shelter" and "Monkey Man" but when being there for some years the best he could come up with was like the 'by-numbers' riffs of "You Can't Rock me" and "Dance Little Sister". That's pretty normal story to see how the drugs effect - first they inspire one's muse, and then they kill it (and the person himself not seeing the difference). That some people see the latter songs as some sort of examples of excellence is simply a sign of the quality standard by the fans has also having gone downhill along the years and some sort of "the most elegantly wasted human being " picture taking the lead in judging Keith's doings. It's Da Man an sich people started to be more fond of.
After thankfully quitting the smack Keith compensated that with (mostly) drink. While the story of dopeville era is full of heroism and rock'n'roll folklore, making Keef the huge survivor and superman, the days of alcohol doing the talking is somehow totally ignored in man's tale. That it in reality turned the man into an aggressive thick head and conservative, trusting solely on his own alcohol-fuiled and powered intuition. One impossible to offer new ideas to or actually to co-work with seriously and fruitfully. Best we could get from him was some solo nightclub-sounding slow ballads, full of 'emotion' - that of an old drunk singing to his drink class and telling his story to anyone interested in ('yes, uncle Keith, that was awesome. Can we go now?'). Surely, there were diehard fanatics loving every move and praising the 'honest' and 'genuine' man. More Da Man per se. And surely there were always some lesser colleagues and yes-men to waste their time to work with the legend, but none of his old band mates any longer.
Like we have never heard Jagger complaining about Keith's junkie habits, we will not hear him telling his alcohol-fuiled years either. Is that loyalty to his old friend or just a smart move by business-wise, hard to say. We can only read between the lines or some Ronnie Wood or Bill Wyman, even Charlie Watts, revealing a bit more occasionally. Mostly Richards and his tale is the most protected myths in the history of rock'n'roll. And people love that myth (sometimes I feel like the whole story of the Stones and of rock music in general is somehow essentially connected to it that people are too afraid to reflect it in adult terms; we love having myths - losing them would be like losing something in us or something we want to believe on). But for the last 40 years or so 'Keef' is the biggest free-rider in the same history - no any other rock star or guitar god has so much appraisal and adoration by actually having done so little in terms of creativity and brilliance. And most of it 'under the influence' - what a priviledge! But it's Da Man an sich.
If this doesn't affect on Riffie coming back, and Dandie as well, none will do...
- Doxa, RSVP
Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-19 17:33 by Doxa.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: December 19, 2018 17:13
I don't think Keith has any regrets, nor should he. Looking forward to 2019, hopefully the Stones will deliver..
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
MartinB
()
Date: December 19, 2018 17:31
Agree to some extent with Doxa. However, Mick Jagger did not achieve much more musically while staying (relatively) clean and sober, although he did better than Keith. Looking at musicians outside Stones, the quality of output does seem to decline with age. Even the Maestro himself (Dylan) has not produced anything particularly stunning (musically) over the last decades. So the extent to which drugs vs. age were responsible remains unclear.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: December 19, 2018 18:16
Keith's collaborations, tributes etc. must be considered. What he did with Bettye Lavette this year would have fit nicely on a Stones album. He is the king of understatement....
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 19, 2018 18:34
What would you have all preferred, output like Prince (RIP) where it’s too much and saturated?
The past is the past.
Coulda woulda shoulda, who cares.
We are all here now, and at the end of 2018 we have possible new tunes, a brilliant England/ Europe tour that was attended 6 months ago!
And a new tour in 5 months!
Count your blessings and give the boys a break from all the complaining and negativity/raking them over the coals.
Merry Christmas friend and family-
The past is the past.
Coulda woulda shoulda, who cares.
We are all here now, and at the end of 2018 we have possible new tunes, a brilliant England/ Europe tour that was attended 6 months ago!
And a new tour in 5 months!
Count your blessings and give the boys a break from all the complaining and negativity/raking them over the coals.
Merry Christmas friend and family-
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: December 19, 2018 18:36
Quote
35love
What would you have all preferred, output like Prince (RIP) where it’s too much and saturated?
The past is the past.
Coulda woulda shoulda, who cares.
We are all here now, and at the end of 2018 we have possible new tunes, a brilliant England/ Europe tour that was attended 6 months ago!
And a new tour in 5 months!
Count your blessings and give the boys a break from all the complaining and negativity/raking them over the coals.
Merry Christmas friend and family-
The future is unwritten but I like the next chapter.....Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
jlowe
()
Date: December 19, 2018 21:06
Quote
Maindefender
I don't think Keith has any regrets, nor should he. Looking forward to 2019, hopefully the Stones will deliver..
Interesting though, that in recent interviews Marianne has expressed regret about her long involvement with drugs (and drink). Of course, she is more inclined to open up about her feelings in interviews than Keith does.
In private, Keith may well have regrets...but maybe he needs (still) to protect his 'personna'.
Artistically and creatively, Marianne seems for some time to have been well ahead of both Mick and Keith. So maybe they could do with a bit more self introspection and give us some more adult lyrics and music to match.
Never too late.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 19, 2018 21:15
Quote
jloweQuote
Maindefender
I don't think Keith has any regrets, nor should he. Looking forward to 2019, hopefully the Stones will deliver..
Interesting though, that in recent interviews Marianne has expressed regret about her long involvement with drugs (and drink). Of course, she is more inclined to open up about her feelings in interviews than Keith does.
In private, Keith may well have regrets...but maybe he needs (still) to protect his 'personna'.
Artistically and creatively, Marianne seems for some time to have been well ahead of both Mick and Keith. So maybe they could do with a bit more self introspection and give us some more adult lyrics and music to match.
Never too late.
*Is this the Marianne who just recently was quoted:
‘I still snort stuff now and then, sure’
Who does that?
Someone who used to be needle addicted to opiates?
Huh?
What is true I do not know.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Maindefender
()
Date: December 19, 2018 21:18
Quote
jloweQuote
Maindefender
I don't think Keith has any regrets, nor should he. Looking forward to 2019, hopefully the Stones will deliver..
Interesting though, that in recent interviews Marianne has expressed regret about her long involvement with drugs (and drink). Of course, she is more inclined to open up about her feelings in interviews than Keith does.
In private, Keith may well have regrets...but maybe he needs (still) to protect his 'personna'.
Artistically and creatively, Marianne seems for some time to have been well ahead of both Mick and Keith. So maybe they could do with a bit more self introspection and give us some more adult lyrics and music to match.
Never too late.
CH is adult enough for me lyrically and musically. No songs of regret in the bunch....
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
35love
()
Date: December 19, 2018 21:34
Quote
MaindefenderQuote
jloweQuote
Maindefender
I don't think Keith has any regrets, nor should he. Looking forward to 2019, hopefully the Stones will deliver..
Interesting though, that in recent interviews Marianne has expressed regret about her long involvement with drugs (and drink). Of course, she is more inclined to open up about her feelings in interviews than Keith does.
In private, Keith may well have regrets...but maybe he needs (still) to protect his 'personna'.
Artistically and creatively, Marianne seems for some time to have been well ahead of both Mick and Keith. So maybe they could do with a bit more self introspection and give us some more adult lyrics and music to match.
Never too late.
CH is adult enough for me lyrically and musically. No songs of regret in the bunch....
There is only 1 song I will not play on ‘Crosseyed Heart’ and that is ‘Amnesia’
Who cares. Personally I’m procrastinating last minute errands.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 20, 2018 00:27
Quote
DoxaQuote
Stoneage
Imagine where The Stones would have been had Keith (and Ron) made this decision 30 years ago?
I usually dont like discussing how the drugs, alcohol etc. affecting to the creativity or the story of The Stones (even though it has a big part in there for sure). For example, I tend to see the reason why Mick Taylor quitted the band more in terms of artistic reasons than that of 'trying to stay alive before it's too late'. But I do an exception here and tell the story of Keef in terms like that. I warn you - it will not be nice.
My simplified and overtly controversial picture is that the junkie era killed Keith's true brilliance in creativity. When getting there on dopeville he would make things like like "Gimme Shelter" and "Monkey Man" but when being there for some years the best he could come up with was like the 'by-numbers' riffs of "You Can't Rock me" and "Dance Little Sister". That's pretty normal story to see how the drugs effect - first they inspire one's muse, and then they kill it (and the person himself not seeing the difference). That some people see the latter songs as some sort of examples of excellence is simply a sign of the quality standard by the fans has also having gone downhill along the years and some sort of "the most elegantly wasted human being " picture taking the lead in judging Keith's doings. It's Da Man an sich people started to be more fond of.
After thankfully quitting the smack Keith compensated that with (mostly) drink. While the story of dopeville era is full of heroism and rock'n'roll folklore, making Keef the huge survivor and superman, the days of alcohol doing the talking is somehow totally ignored in man's tale. That it in reality turned the man into an aggressive thick head and conservative, trusting solely on his own alcohol-fuiled and powered intuition. One impossible to offer new ideas to or actually to co-work with seriously and fruitfully. Best we could get from him was some solo nightclub-sounding slow ballads, full of 'emotion' - that of an old drunk singing to his drink class and telling his story to anyone interested in ('yes, uncle Keith, that was awesome. Can we go now?'). Surely, there were diehard fanatics loving every move and praising the 'honest' and 'genuine' man. More Da Man per se. And surely there were always some lesser colleagues and yes-men to waste their time to work with the legend, but none of his old band mates any longer.
Like we have never heard Jagger complaining about Keith's junkie habits, we will not hear him telling his alcohol-fuiled years either. Is that loyalty to his old friend or just a smart move by business-wise, hard to say. We can only read between the lines or some Ronnie Wood or Bill Wyman, even Charlie Watts, revealing a bit more occasionally. Mostly Richards and his tale is the most protected myths in the history of rock'n'roll. And people love that myth (sometimes I feel like the whole story of the Stones and of rock music in general is somehow essentially connected to it that people are too afraid to reflect it in adult terms; we love having myths - losing them would be like losing something in us or something we want to believe on). But for the last 40 years or so 'Keef' is the biggest free-rider in the same history - no any other rock star or guitar god has so much appraisal and adoration by actually having done so little in terms of creativity and brilliance. And most of it 'under the influence' - what a priviledge! But it's Da Man an sich.
If this doesn't affect on Riffie coming back, and Dandie as well, none will do...
- Doxa, RSVP
However, Doxa, are you not on this occasion presenting too much of a one factor explanation of this band's development through major, medium and minor peaks and relative and sometimes absolute slumps, that is, with a focus on Keith's part of it. From your exposition it is as if, were it not for Keith's drug use, he would have contributed to creativity without any stops. And somehow you have, again on this occasion, abstracted from characterisic points of their development. Especially from what one may call their artistic turn that THEIR SATANIC MAJESTYS REQUEST paved the way for. Also, on the other hand, from the exhaustion that GOATS HEAD SOUP in its lethargy displays from musical innovation during the preceding years, for instance in one of Keith's best Keith sung songs," Coming Down Again". Later on, past their artistic period, there was still music made that instead of 'artistic, may be described as deeply inspirational. I am referring to the Pathe Marconi albums, of which Keith has his share. And when both Keith and Mick after that time period, influenced by their disagreements on material, the two of them do not write quite as good songs as in the past, one ought to be aware that the more reserved reception to their albums from their conservative buying public has contributed to take away incentives to be more active in music making.
In other words, Keith's use of drugs and alcohol has had its impact, I don't object, but in a richer context, which I have only alluded to. It is paradox for me to remind you, you know so very much more than me about these subjects. But you seem almost to have been intoxicated (!) by the perspective you chose.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 00:29 by Witness.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: December 20, 2018 01:56
Quote
Witness
However, Doxa, are you not on this occasion presenting too much of a one factor explanation of this band's development through major, medium and minor peaks and relative and sometimes absolute slumps, that is, with a focus on Keith's part of it. From your exposition it is as if, were it not for Keith's drug use, he would have contributed to creativity without any stops. And somehow you have, again on this occasion, abstracted from characterisic points of their development. Especially from what one may call their artistic turn that THEIR SATANIC MAJESTYS REQUEST paved the way for. Also, on the other hand, from the exhaustion that GOATS HEAD SOUP in its lethargy displays from musical innovation during the preceding years, for instance in one of Keith's best Keith sung songs," Coming Down Again". Later on, past their artistic period, there was still music made that instead of 'artistic, may be described as deeply inspirational. I am referring to the Pathe Marconi albums, of which Keith has his share. And when both Keith and Mick after that time period, influenced by their disagreements on material, the two of them do not write quite as good songs as in the past, one ought to be aware that the more reserved reception to their albums from their conservative buying public has contributed to take away incentives to be more active in music making.
In other words, Keith's use of drugs and alcohol has had its impact, I don't object, but in a richer context, which I have only alluded to. It is paradox for me to remind you, you know so very much more than me about these subjects. But you seem almost to have been intoxicated (!) by the perspective you chose.
Well, I think the whole story of the (downhill of) creativity of the Stones in general and Keith in particular is much richer and complicated than I described above. Of course. What I did was to just emphasize one factor, and I really don't have any clue if anything I said holds court (or to what extent). It was just one consistent and coherent way (or attempt to that) to explain certain phenomenons we have wittnessed along the years. It was controversial for sure because for once I tried look the case without typical non-natural heroism involved in discussing the topic of Keith and drugs. Just a human, raw and naked perspective (without any glamour and myths) reflecting what drugs and booze does for one's behavior in the long run.
But like I said that's not the way I generally like seeing the Stones. For example, I much rather like to see Mick Jagger not wanting to co-work with Keith because Mick doesn't find Keith 'inspiring' enough (or for some other 'pure' artistic reasons) but not because of Keith's unbearable drunken behavior. The latter just sounds way too harsh, easy and 'naturalistic' explanation. Nor I don't like to see Keith or the Stones losing their true muse and focus after EXILE due to their heavy drugs use. I rather like to see them just running out of fresh ideas, them of completing everything they know and can by EXILE, and thereby having a 'natural' artistic downhill (or, if one likes, just getting old in basically young man's game). Or like with Keith, him by then having gotten about any sensible new idea from the open tuning that was somehow within the reach of his curious mind. Him just running out of bullets. Not that of him shooting most of his creative cells in his brains out. But I am afraid that that of trying to tell everything in pure artistic terms isn't satisfactory enough, and that one needs certain causal, non-musical stories to complete the picture.
I actually hate using the drug card in explaining anything in music, but sometimes I need to admit that it might have a real explanatory role in trying to understand their doings. Both positively and negatively. My story above stemmed out of that. But I hope anyone sees the hypothetical and over-simplifying (and, of course, rhetorical) character my story has. It wasn't written to be taken literally, but just to open up one possible perspective to consider.
- Doxa
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 02:00 by Doxa.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
Witness
()
Date: December 20, 2018 02:20
With your second part added, Doxa, I am all in all left with no objections. And one extra perspective has thereby joined the former explanations.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
diverseharmonics
()
Date: December 20, 2018 07:05
We are going to both. Will look you up and have a drink!Quote
Rip This
hope to see some of you in Miami or jacksonville.
Re: Keith on cutting back on drinking: "I got fed up with it."
Posted by:
mandu
()
Date: December 20, 2018 07:58
Quote
RoughJusticeOnYaQuote
keithsman
watching the American version of the office, they just don't get it.
Completely un-agreed.
They do 'get' it; in their own, particular way.
As a continental European, I'm really close to British humour, and I've been growing up with it for 50 odd years now. So I feel I did 'get' the original -
and while the American version is what it is: an American interpretation, and therefor quite different from "the Office" UK, they did touch the same nerves in that series...
And by doing so, they created what I consider to be one of the very best - and allow me to say, from a personal point of view: one of the very few really good - USA comedy series of this day & age.
Maybe I just don't 'get' USA comedy; so be it then - but "the Office" USA, I really really liked. And for all the right reasons.
The british version of the office is fantastic,its kinda like what would happen in a real office.people really do behave like that.I tried to watch the american version but didnt like it that much.just not the same as the british version.
Feel The Fear
And Do It Anyway
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-12-20 07:59 by mandu.
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