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dcba
RE "You Can't Rock Me" Nick Kent who attended some IORR sessions said that each take of these songs was worse than the previous and when a super-dire take was in the can Keef'd usually say : "that's it, that's the one! We got it!".
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dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
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GasLightStreet
A working mix of the LP version.
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dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
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DandelionPowderman
I think there are examples of both. Sometimes, the unfinished versions are better (Keep Up Blues and some of the SW-tracks spring to mind).
However, LIS and YGMR really got a good makeover that improved the songs, imo.
I find it fascinating to listen to the development of their tunes as well. Some of the the early attemps are very long (the SG-tracks, Flip The Switch, YGR, for instance). We can litterally hear them searching for sweet stuff to add and trying out different things. Surprisingly, they often keep the backing tracks of many of those versions for the finished version. Then, they edit them down and do the overdubs and the final touches.
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DoxaQuote
dcbaQuote
Doxa
Thank you both of you for sharing these. For a Stones nerd like me it is always interesting to hear works in progress, and thereby witnessing the whole creativity process of the Stones (especially that of Jagger/Richards colloboration).
Doxa
Especially when the leaked bootleg tunes are better than the final official MJ/KR-sanctioned release...
Said differently I never heard a working version of a song from the golden (68-72) era that was better than the official version, which proves that during these years the Twins' flair was unparalleled. They made NO mistakes.
Now (and it's my opinion) the release of the "Voodoo Brew/Stew/Residue" around 1996/97 proved that the Twins had lost quite a fair share of their flair : they were putting 2nd rate material on the album and were putting away embryos of songs that had a great potential (like "You Got It Made").
You have a point there. Some sort of focus is missing in many latter-day Stones albums. Like they were not being able to bring the projects to end gracefully, or that there is something missing in the very basic elements, in Jagger-Richards songs themselves. I don't think any masterpiece was lost due to song selection as far as VOODOO LOUNGE go, but yeah, like Jagger, I am not totally satisfied with the selection Don Was did. That Mick and Keith had given him that significiant role, speaks also volumes about that the album wasn't totally in in their hands or under their artistic vision. Was it because they couldn't agree together and needed an outsider to make the decisions (not to end up fighting like with EMOTIONAL RESCUE?), or was it because they didn't really bother any longer? They didn't have that 'vision' anymore?
I think studying VOODOO LOUNGE and its creation might tell something quite revealing why the Stones have been quite non-profilic ever since. In a theory it looked like that everything was perfect. The band spending much time together in a studio and giving quite a lof time and space for the project. For example, STEEL WHEELS was a rather rushed project by Stones standards by then. But now they were doing the album 'like they used to'. They also had a new producer to whom a lot of power was given to give the album a needed focus and freshness. Jagger had tried that with Rubin in WANDERING SPIRIT with both commercially and artistically good results (one might wonder had that experience something to do with the choice and role of Don Was).
VOODOO LOUNGE turned to be a huge success commercially, and it is an okay album by all means. It also sounded good in that contemporary classic rock-friendly scene. But that's not good enough for me: to me it is a mother of all Stones-by-numbers albums, and since its relaese I have had difficulties to take them seriously (I have sometimes called the album 'Stones For Dummies...' there is nothing wrong with the songs themselves if one likes a standard Rolling Stones sound, but that's not good enough for a spoiled fan like me).
What the hell happened?
One could say that the quality of MAIN OFFENDER type songs Keith with which he both commercially and artistically (forget his hardcore fanbase with their acquired taste) flopped with wasn't the source of inspiration for a great Rolling Stones album. The best of them, "Love is Strong", was the leading single of the album, but while having a Stones fan ear-friendly surface, with that harmonica and all, it is a rather forgettable song in the long run. I still recall listening it in 40 LICKS and being almost shocked how cheap and thin the song sounded like in that collection of bigger-than-life songs. Formally okay but the substance missing.
But more than Keith I 'blame' Jagger here. I dare to claim - sorry Mick - that his heart wasn't totally involved while making that album. Or if it initially was, he somehow lost his interest during the process. Almost none of that drive and focus he had in WANDERING SPIRIT - an album of Rolling Stones style music - is left. Lyrically VOODOO LOUNGE is his worst album ever. Full of cheap and hasty-sounding choices - 'sharks will cry', indeed... And how banal are the opening lines of "Love Is Strong" (the title itself being one of the lamest they ever come up with, followed later titles like "Anybody Seen My Baby?" and "Streets of Love" - damn, all of them being leading singles from their albums!) - true that those are Keith's but Jagger wasn't bothered to write anything better. Artistic laziness. Add the odd fact that he gave so much power to Was. That's not the Jagger 'control freak' we are familiar with.
I cannot help but VOODOO LOUNGE marks the very moment when Mick and Keith, no matter how much time and space was given, couldn't any longer 'click' together. And Don Was no any bloody Jimmy Miller either (but the core problem wasn't in that direction). Magic just didn't happen any longer. I have a picture that Jagger made his own conclusion of that, and has not given a new chance since then. Both BRIDGES TO BABYLON and A BIGGER BANG were made by a different method, as it looks like the new album is going to be as well.
- Doxa
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gotdablouse
Based on how the VL sessions took place, writing sessions in Barbados for Mick and Keith (see Residue) and then endless sessions for the whole band together in Ireland at Ronnie's place, I always thought that the Keith versions that first appeared on "Voodoo Stew" in 1996 were more or less finished versions he'd gone back to record a vocal on, for fun or to make a point, i.e. not demos he worked on and that Mick polished up at the last minute, as what happened for with "One More Shot" in 2012.Quote
DandelionPowderman
I think there are examples of both. Sometimes, the unfinished versions are better (Keep Up Blues and some of the SW-tracks spring to mind).
However, LIS and YGMR really got a good makeover that improved the songs, imo.
I find it fascinating to listen to the development of their tunes as well. Some of the the early attemps are very long (the SG-tracks, Flip The Switch, YGR, for instance). We can litterally hear them searching for sweet stuff to add and trying out different things. Surprisingly, they often keep the backing tracks of many of those versions for the finished version. Then, they edit them down and do the overdubs and the final touches.
Where on earth did you hear an "early version" of Flip the Switch ?!
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keithsman
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
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keithsman
Total rubbish , i absolutely love Voodoo Lounge, brilliant album. Since Tattoo You its their best effort.
It's an improvement on Dirty Work that preceded it, and its better than Bridges To Babylon and ABB that followed it, i can't see where you are coming from in dissing this album at every turn, it's a good solid album that i play very often, i have a lot of affection for this album, but i agree with you that it's the last time Mick and Keith looked out of the same telescope together, but i don't agree that it was the very moment they no longer clicked, i would say that happened on the next album.
Stones by numbers i hear you say, well look if it pleases Stones fans what's the problem. If they can't recreate Exile then this is a good second best.
Take it easy, man. It's just a matter of differing opinions, so no problem there. Good for you if you like the album so much. I like it too, like I do of every Stones album, but I don't hear the brilliance you do.
I consider BRIDGES TO BABYLON to be slightly better album than VOODOO LOUNGE. I think that has something to do with Jagger and Richards not even trying to click, but constructed the album more or less separately, originating from intended solo projects. Neither needed to do compromises or having being inspired by other's doings. To me the album contains best individual songs from the latter day era, such as "Out of Control" and "How Can I Stop", even though as a whole it is a bit uneven and incohesive.
As pointed here, "Flip The Switch" is made by their old traditional working method, but I think that it is one of the weakest songs in the album.
- Doxa
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keithsman
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
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dcba
RE "You Can't Rock Me" Nick Kent who attended some IORR sessions said that each take of these songs was worse than the previous and when a super-dire take was in the can Keef'd usually say : "that's it, that's the one! We got it!".
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DoxaQuote
keithsman
In light of what you said just now i think it will be interesting to see how this new album pans out. I like your comment that you thought BTB was better because by that point the Glimmers did not even try to click, i just wonder if you think it better they not click on the new album. It's an interesting way of looking at it, i said earlier today that it will be a good album because it will be two halves, Micks half and keith's, as long as they throw some fairy dust on each others work this could end up great. Its the compromise that could spoil this album, i'd rather have the best Micks got in competition with the best keith's got, and no saving the best stuff for their solo albums
Well, from the base we know by now, it looks like that the method they use now is more than that of BRIDGES TO BABYLON than that of VOODOO LOUNGE. Will that mean the album will have better chances to be better? That's impossible to say, as is always the case with creativity. We might learn from the history and do some educated guesses, but still one can not predict the future or the outcome. It can be a masterpiece or a total turd (or most likely, something in between).
I think the way they now are making the album comes out of necessity: that of them being old semi-retired men who really don't need any new music to survive. Keith sounds like making the album with the same style and frequency as he did his latest solo album: just some sessions here and then, thrown within a four years time frame or so. Mick writes and records his demos occasionally when he feels like (and sounds being rather profilic when he has that mood on) - that seems to fit nicely to Keith's schedule as well. Mick and Keith meet occasionally (probably to discuss about what to do with their songs and exchanging ideas). The whole band is asked studio for a week or so occasionally to do something with those songs Mick and Keith provide to them.
I simply think that the old style of making records by the whole band gathering to a studio and let the songs develop bit by bit by jamming etc. is something out of their reach. Simply due to their age and interest. Keith might occasionally talk about it, and many fans seems to have nostalgic ideas about it, but I think that those days are gone by; it is a part of Rolling Stones history and folklore now. Like I argued above, VOODOO LOUNGE was the last real effort to apply that method. (And my estimation is that VOODOO LOUNGE proved that the method had really run out of gas. A pragmatic guy like Mick Jagger concluded that the time and money invested in it doesn't pay off in remarkably if any better results. Jagger has always had some complaints about it, but I think he tolerated it, and live with it, as long as the results were worth of the 'sacrifice').
What goes for Mick and Keith 'clicking' or not, my take is that what happened to them was a result of natural history. They matured up as individual and independent artists (with not the world's smallest egos) and especially after both of them making solo records (although the development starting already in the early 70's), they were able to do just fine without the other. At some point their co-work started to be more like making compromises than that of inspiring each other. It was like what happened to John Lennon and Paul McCartney, although the Glimmers' fruitful co-operation lased longer and they were destinied to continue their careers under the umbrella notion of The Rolling Stones. Like with Lennon/McCartney, one could easily say that the stuff they did separately was not as strong as they did together, but it was a result of natural evolution. When there was not any longer that spark and feel of mutual inspiration, what one can do?
But that said, the best and most memorable results the Stones gained when Mick and Keith were 'clicking' (and with that the band was lead by one shared vision, not by two making forced compromises) and the band using that traditional, time consuming method to make records. But they were rather young and hungry guys back then... People happen to change when they get older...
- Doxa
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Doxa
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa
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Doxa
Bloody hell!
If someone would put a gun against my head and demand me to name the worst released Rolling Stones song ever, "Moon Is Up" would be pretty high on my list with "Back to Zero", but this version is so awful that it is hilarous. They should have released this instead the dull and embarrasing finished Jagger one! At least one could have laughed one's asses off with no shame!
- Doxa