interesting link ...
[www.artchive.com]


"What do you want - what?!"
- Keith

Another interesting lyric.."I think I've crossed the Rubicon"

ie: in a nutshell, the point of no return

Julius Caesar

I took it to be reference to the horrific images from Goya's Disasters of War series...but maybe only Mick knows........ROCKMAN

[www.napoleonguide.com]

Rockman Wrote:
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> I took it to be reference to the horrific images
> from Goya's Disasters of War series...but maybe
> only Mick knows........ROCKMAN
>
>
>
>


Yeah, the whole song is apocalyptic anti-bush stuff, like DB and Sweet Neocon. Guess who the preacher is in the first verse?

Don't cancel my account bv, but ABB is perhaps the most overtly political album that the boys have done.

Ms Sssoul! Another great pic that I have never seen! Merci!

Pray tell camper who do believe it to be?....ROCKMAN

If we keep going down this (political) track, we're not going to get back. The same feeling (that is in Sweet Neo Con and Rain Fall Down) is in Back of My Hand: that we'll go too far, get away from our original values, and this overreaching imperialism will take us to a place where we eventually collapse.

- Mick Jagger, 2005

awwwwwwwwwww Michael Moore? Howard Dean? just guessing out of my ass.

Without mentioning politics: anybody visiting Madrid should go and see those paintings over there. They are really very beautiful.
Crossing the Rubicon, that's from Vergil?

Whale..here ya go__was the beginning of the Roman Empire/

It basically means the point of no return, and credited as follows

Cæsar's crossing of the Rubicon was a very noted event. Ever since then, whenever a bold decision has been made, or a step taken which cannot be recalled, people have exclaimed: "The die is cast!" or "He has crossed the Rubicon!" and, when you hear these expressions used, you must always remember Cæsar and his bold resolve.

>> Goya's Disasters of War series <<
nice link, thank you Rockman!

>> Another great pic that I have never seen! Merci! <<
my pleasure, ChrisM - do you mean my avatar or those Goyas?
in case you mean my avatar, here is it a bit larger - it's from the Nicaragua Benefit gig;
i don't know who took it - Lynn Goldsmith, maybe?

Rockman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Pray tell camper who do believe it to
> be?....ROCKMAN
>
> If we keep going down this (political) track,
> we're not going to get back. The same feeling
> (that is in Sweet Neo Con and Rain Fall Down) is
> in Back of My Hand: that we'll go too far, get
> away from our original values, and this
> overreaching imperialism will take us to a place
> where we eventually collapse.
>
> - Mick Jagger, 2005


Let's just say he's less a preacher and more an evangelical politico who plays the god card to sway the red states and he shows up in Sweet Neocon. I won't say more in fear of getting booted by bv.

I think people interpret it whatever way they want. I never saw any political msg in BOMH or Dangerous Beauty. In fact Jerry Hall has been recently referred to as "the lady with the leash". The USA political interpretations by others actually lessened my enjoyment of the music.
The whole album to me, has a very urban feel, and has its finger on the pulse of urban life today--a bit of apathy/hopelessness, paranoia, and corruption of self, corruption of society and the desire to escape this in myriad forms.

P.S: Thanks for the link, very cool, and I love that Mick included an artistic reference to underline the mood of the song. Almost like the darkness in paint it black.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-02 21:13 by Miss U..

Miss U. Wrote:
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> I never saw any political msg in BOMH or
> Dangerous Beauty.

Re: Dangerous Beauty, two words: Abu Ghraib

A dangerous beauty
So plainfully plain to us
You're doing your duty

Who you got there in that hood, you look so fancy in those photographs
With your rubber gloves on you're a favorite with the Chiefs of Staff

You're doing such a wonderful job
You're a natural at working with dogs
Keeping everyone awake at night
With a touch of the prods

Re: BOMH, two words: No WMD's

I hear a preacher on the corner
Ranting like a crazy man
He says there's trouble, troubles are coming
I can read it like the back of my hand

Please understand that this is not intended as a political post, it's simply meant to illustrate that the political readings/ meanings of both of these songs are rather clear and straight forward, particularly in light of Sweet Neocon and public statements by Mick regarding recent political events involving certain governments.

> The USA political interpretations by others
> actually lessened my enjoyment of the music.

How do you feel about SFM, Gimme Shelter, SFTD, Fingerprint File, Undercover, Blinded By Rainbows, or Highwire? From I Fought the Law to We're Not Going To Take It, a political sensibility is central to rock'n'roll's element of rebellion. Don't you think?

I think music is subjective and very personal, it's open to interpretation. I don't think Mick would ever want to come out and say "This song is about this". That's not what art is about, it often has many meanings and is "in the eye of the beholder".

Like I said before, I can see how some might interpret the songs in this kind of political way, but that was not my take on it. I definitely think Sweet Neocon is political, and Look What the Cat Dragged in also has a bit of politics in it, and of course Satisfaction, SFM, Gimme Shelter. Political songs in the 60s were de rigeure. But the times they are a changing....and if you listen to the lyrics on this album, you can also pick up a feeling of apathy and hopelessness about it all, a desire for escape, a paranoia. This is not a call to arms.
I still prefer my own interpretations, and I think there is a tendency especially from Americans, to interpret songs from their cultural perspective....sorry but that has dampened my enjoyment of the song, especially Dangerous Beauty!!!!
:>(
How concerned is Mick with USA politics, or is it more of a concern about the rising cost of gasoline as a result, and the impact on the cost of transporting the stage around, thus his bottom line?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-10-02 22:36 by Miss U..

The politics of songs doesn't hamper my enjoyment of them at all. Sweet Neo Con and Dangerous Beauty are two of my favorite tracks and I am a Christian Republican with some conservative leanings (some liberal ones as well). I also really like John Fogerty's "Deja Vu (All Over Again)" even though my views are the opposite of those in the song. A good song is a good song. If I listened to only songs were I agreed with the lyrics, then I would have very few songs to listen to and would probaly be out of touch with what other people think.

Josh
np: "Sweet Neo Con"

P.S. when i read the sweet neo con lyrics, i thought they were a bit "rhyming dictionary", but they actually work really well. there is a big difference between reading and signing lyrics.

yes Josh, I am just traipsing behind you going "yeah...uh huh..yes, yes". readin lyrics vs singing them is a big difference. And Jagger especially has this gift of time and time again coming up with these special zingers that just don't sit right with me at first. But on repeated listenings they become more and more deep. I figure Jagger knows full and well the "dangers" of tossing out a "house-mouse" lyric. So if he does choose to write something like that I think he must have his reasons. And then bing! it comes through and hits me. Lou Reed is really good with playing with language like that too. Probabaly better than Jagger. Jagger does trip up from time to time. "Sparks Will Fly"comes to mind.

Scott Weilend (sp?) is could also fit in that category. When i read the lyrics to STP's big album (title escapes me), the lyrics looked pretty bad, especially Creep. However, the album is awesome.

Josh
np: two story town - bon jovi

with sssoul that photo is great! Thanks!

Whale Wrote:
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> Crossing the Rubicon, that's from Vergil?

It's from Julius Caesar's "De bello Gallico".

By crossing the river Rubicon with his legions, Caesar began the civil war that ended the Roman Republic and led to the Roman Empire. The Rubicon river was the boundary of Gaul, the province Caesar had the authority to keep his army in. By crossing the river, he had committed an invasion of Rome.

It has nothing to do with whether or not I agree with the presumed political message of the song. It also has nothing to do with whether or not I can relate to the song; I just don't like the egocentricity of presuming this is the meaning, it must relate to USA events/politics, and frankly if so the imagery that evokes also ruins it for me.

Miss U. Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It also has nothing to do with whether or not I
> can relate to the song; I just don't like the
> egocentricity of presuming this is the meaning,

It's not egocentric to point to a lyric in a song, for example: "Who you got there in that hood, you look so fancy in those photographs/ With your rubber gloves on you're a favorite with the Chiefs of Staff" and the recent events of Abu Ghraib where the world just happened to witness prisoners in hoods, guards in rubber gloves, and photographs of both groups, as well as a number of books and articles that connect those activities with the Chiefs of Staff and the DoD.

If there were only one connecting part we might call it an anomaly
If there were only two connecting parts we might call it a coincidence
But with three connecting parts, and more with the rest of the song, it's hard to refute that DB is connected to Lyndie England's pictures at Abu Ghraib and her role in the events there, particularly since her highschool photo was used ad nauseum by the press.

I'll agree that songs and lyrics can be interpreted in many ways, absolutely. But I'd also suggest that these lyrics may be interpreted with the events of Abu Ghraib in mind. They don't have to be, but they certainly may be, with some agreement that this is a valid reading (not to say the only reading). To cite another example, take a look at the lyrics of Claudine and ask if they correspond to any real world event (Spider's death).

I don't know, why don't you tell me what Claudine is about.