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"Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 25, 2018 01:02

As a result of a project concerning the different / "correct" ? / "incorrect" ? runningtimes of the "Beggars Banquet" album, I received a Yogoslavian copy -
December 1968 (engraved in the dead wax") -
and this is a remarkable release !

As you can see, the cover is marked "Stereo - Mono" - and this has to be taken literally !!! - Side One is MONO ! - and Side Two is STEREO !

The Whole Side Two is Stereo, - meaning that it holds a unique version of
"Prodigal Son" in Stereo ! . . .
All other (?) Stereo-BBs has it in Mono . . .

It sounds like it is an ERPS-(Electronically Re-Processed Stereo) production, -
but hard to say, - as the arrangement of the song is so "simple". . .

Anyway, - absolutely unique ! - but raises some questions ! :
Why just in Yugoslavia - ? Why not on other BB-releases - ?

The Promotional Album, -London RSD 1 was earlier rumored to hold a Stereo-version, - but this info has been proven to be wrong, - and the UK Decca RSM 1 is Mono !

(The Mono-Side-One does NOT hold the "Dedicated Mono Mix" of SFTD - but a
Mono Stereo-folddown of the Stereo-BB, - otherwise only known from Mexican-
Mono-BB-release !) -
making this Yugoslavian release even more exceptional !



Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: 1963luca0 ()
Date: April 25, 2018 02:08

Matrix Numbers?

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: April 25, 2018 02:22

Your copy is supposed to be the mono version.
Stereo version: [www.45worlds.com]
Mono version: [www.45worlds.com]


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 25, 2018 02:34

Quote
1963luca0
Matrix Numbers?

Ha Ha ! Since you so politely ask, here they are :
Side One : LPDCV 366A 7169-8169 ZP-VP. - (all hand engraved)
Side Two : LPDC-VS-366B 171268-181268 MK-VP (all hand engraved)

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 25, 2018 02:39

Quote
Deltics
Your copy is supposed to be the mono version.
Stereo version: [www.45worlds.com]
Mono version: [www.45worlds.com]

Well. . Not really sure about how this release is described elsewhere. . .
But my copy is exactly like I reported. . .
Side One : MONO
Side Two : STEREO



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-25 02:42 by HenrikBB.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: April 25, 2018 11:48

Quote
HenrikBB
Quote
Deltics
Your copy is supposed to be the mono version.
Stereo version: [www.45worlds.com]
Mono version: [www.45worlds.com]

Well. . Not really sure about how this release is described elsewhere. . .
But my copy is exactly like I reported. . .
Side One : MONO
Side Two : STEREO

I'm sure it is but looking at the matrix numbers you provided it looks like Jugoton used the wrong the stamper on side two.
Of course, this does not explain the anomaly of the stereo version of Prodigal Son. I wonder if it's the same on the stereo version?


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: April 25, 2018 12:30

More importantly why the hell was it recorded in mono in the first place when the rest of the album is stereo?

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 25, 2018 12:54

Quote
Deltics
Quote
HenrikBB
Quote
Deltics
Your copy is supposed to be the mono version.
Stereo version: [www.45worlds.com]
Mono version: [www.45worlds.com]

Well. . Not really sure about how this release is described elsewhere. . .
But my copy is exactly like I reported. . .
Side One : MONO
Side Two : STEREO

I'm sure it is but looking at the matrix numbers you provided it looks like Jugoton used the wrong the stamper on side two.
Of course, this does not explain the anomaly of the stereo version of Prodigal Son. I wonder if it's the same on the stereo version?

Strange indeed ! - but only one way to find out, - the hard way smoking smiley
and get a copy . . .

Discogs has Matrix runout (A-side) : LPCVS 366A 18370 (B-side): LPCVS 366B 18370
for this Blue-label release, - which has identical number and cover as the
Black-label release.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: ironbelly ()
Date: April 25, 2018 13:07

Oh, boy!
I thought that CD matrices and mastering variations are pain in the back.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-25 13:08 by ironbelly.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: April 25, 2018 18:18

Thanks for the info. I'd love to hear Prodigal Son in stereo.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: emilio ()
Date: April 25, 2018 19:04

I confirm your version Henrik, and my record also plays side 1 mono and side 2 stereo
my matrix
Side 1 ZP-VP LPDCV 336 A 7169 8169 Hand Written
Side 2 MK-VP LPDC-VS 336 B 171268 181268 Hand Written
[stonesworldcollection.blogspot.it]

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: Monsoon Ragoon ()
Date: April 25, 2018 19:20

It's also available on countless BB alternate bootleg CDs.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 26, 2018 01:36

Quote
Monsoon Ragoon
It's also available on countless BB alternate bootleg CDs.

Yes, I'm sure it is available from many unofficial sources, -
but what I find interesting is, that this is on an Official release -
and seems to be a "one of a kind" - ?
Even the very special Mexican Stereo-BB holds "Prodigal Son" in Mono !



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-26 01:39 by HenrikBB.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: exilestones ()
Date: April 26, 2018 16:53

Quote
Monsoon Ragoon
It's also available on countless BB alternate bootleg CDs.

Thanks

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 27, 2018 19:57

Quote
Silver Dagger
More importantly why the hell was it recorded in mono in the first place when the rest of the album is stereo?

It wasn't recorded in mono, and the official releases do feature a stereo mix, it's just that the mix they made from the multitrack recording is mostly centered.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 13:37 by His Majesty.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: Deltics ()
Date: April 27, 2018 20:24

Quote
HenrikBB
Quote
Deltics
Quote
HenrikBB
Quote
Deltics
Your copy is supposed to be the mono version.
Stereo version: [www.45worlds.com]
Mono version: [www.45worlds.com]

Well. . Not really sure about how this release is described elsewhere. . .
But my copy is exactly like I reported. . .
Side One : MONO
Side Two : STEREO

I'm sure it is but looking at the matrix numbers you provided it looks like Jugoton used the wrong the stamper on side two.
Of course, this does not explain the anomaly of the stereo version of Prodigal Son. I wonder if it's the same on the stereo version?

Strange indeed ! - but only one way to find out, - the hard way smoking smiley
and get a copy . . .

Discogs has Matrix runout (A-side) : LPCVS 366A 18370 (B-side): LPCVS 366B 18370
for this Blue-label release, - which has identical number and cover as the
Black-label release.

Incidentally, the catalogue number on your cover is for the stereo album, it's different to the one on the label.


"As we say in England, it can get a bit trainspottery"

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: deardoctortake1 ()
Date: April 28, 2018 01:35

I have the exact same Beggars Banquet Yugoslovian Stereo-Mono LP with the same apparent matrix numbers and it appears that Prodigal Son is in MONO

I also have an Israeli Pax Beggars that also says Stereo-Mono and plays Prodigal in MONO too, but it's called Prodigal BLUES on the disc label.


My Australian RED open Decca FFSS also plays Prodigal Son in mono, all 3 sound the same to me.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 02:47

Quote
deardoctortake1
I have the exact same Beggars Banquet Yugoslovian Stereo-Mono LP with the same apparent matrix numbers and it appears that Prodigal Son is in MONO

I also have an Israeli Pax Beggars that also says Stereo-Mono and plays Prodigal in MONO too, but it's called Prodigal BLUES on the disc label.


My Australian RED open Decca FFSS also plays Prodigal Son in mono, all 3 sound the same to me.

Is the Whole Side 2 on your Yoguslavian copy playing Mono ? - or just "Prodigal Son" - ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 02:50 by HenrikBB.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: deardoctortake1 ()
Date: April 28, 2018 03:13

Yugoslovian Beggars Black label
stereo-mono
LPSV -DC-366

Side 2

matrix also reads 12-12 -68

Street Fighting Man stereo
Prodigal Son mono
Stray Cat Blues stereo
Factory Girl stereo
Salt Of The Earth stereo

side 1 matrix reads 7/69

Sympathy mono but not like the actual mono mix, I guess stereo fold down
No Expectations mono but slide higher than the mono single version
Dear Doctor mono
Parachute Woman mono
Jig Saw Puzzle mono

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 03:44

Quote
deardoctortake1
Yugoslovian Beggars Black label
stereo-mono
LPSV -DC-366

Side 2

matrix also reads 12-12 -68

Street Fighting Man stereo
Prodigal Son mono
Stray Cat Blues stereo
Factory Girl stereo
Salt Of The Earth stereo



side 1 matrix reads 7/69

Sympathy mono but not like the actual mono mix, I guess stereo fold down
No Expectations mono but slide higher than the mono single version
Dear Doctor mono
Parachute Woman mono
Jig Saw Puzzle mono

"It sounds like it is an ERPS-(Electronically Re-Processed Stereo) production, -
but hard to say, - as the arrangement of the song is so "simple". . . "
Compared to the other songs on BB, - Side 2, - "Prodigal Son" is "simple" -
and Fantastic ! - So no W I D E -Stereo image.
Dont expect the guitar coming from the right, - and Jagger singing from the left.
If you can shift from Mono to Stereo (and back) on your amplifier, - you will have no doubt that it is Stereo ! - which I have never heard on any other BB-release !
- or outside-BB releases . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 03:49 by HenrikBB.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: deardoctortake1 ()
Date: April 28, 2018 05:34

Very subtle at most for me

I possibly hear high hat more on right side
Vocals center
Bass drum center
Maybe harmonica more right

But final “breath” may be toward one side on right

But more mono to me than stereo

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 11:17

Quote
deardoctortake1
Very subtle at most for me

I possibly hear high hat more on right side
Vocals center
Bass drum center
Maybe harmonica more right

But final “breath” may be toward one side on right

But more mono to me than stereo

Like first stated, it sounds like an ERPS-production to me.
I won't call it subtle,
When switching from Mono to Stereo, the guitar fills the the
right side of the "sound image" - and the high-hat moves to the right -
and a little "up". . . . so it is definitely some kind of Stereo-production.
Nothing moves to the left. . . resembling many ERPS-productions.
Anyway still unique, - and not to be found elsewhere (yet ?)-
and still a mystery why, - and I agree with Siverdagger, - it was Mono
in the first place - on a Stereo-LP ? - and secondly why this
(ERPS ?) is only to be on an Yoguslavian release . . . ?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 12:42 by HenrikBB.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2018 13:40

Quote
HenrikBB
... and I agree with Siverdagger, - it was Mono
in the first place - on a Stereo-LP ?

PS is stereo on the official stereo releases.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 14:07

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
HenrikBB
... and I agree with Siverdagger, - it was Mono
in the first place - on a Stereo-LP ?

PS is stereo on the official stereo releases.

? ? ? - Please mention One Official Stereo Release, where PS is in Stereo !
(- beside this strange Yugoslavian release )

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2018 15:33

Quote
HenrikBB


? ? ? - Please mention One Official Stereo Release, where PS is in Stereo !
(- beside this strange Yugoslavian release )

Every official version available to buy in shops and online.

Maybe you need to listen again? The bass drum is not totally centred, it is placed slightly to the right. The hi-hat sound subtly spreads out with slight emphasis to the left. A harmonica overdub towards the end of the track comes in on the right speaker, listen close at circa 2:09. The end of the track has the ending noises spread out across the stereo field.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 16:00 by His Majesty.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: ReelStone ()
Date: April 28, 2018 18:14

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
HenrikBB


? ? ? - Please mention One Official Stereo Release, where PS is in Stereo !
(- beside this strange Yugoslavian release )

Every official version available to buy in shops and online.

Maybe you need to listen again? The bass drum is not totally centred, it is placed slightly to the right. The hi-hat sound subtly spreads out with slight emphasis to the left. A harmonica overdub towards the end of the track comes in on the right speaker, listen close at circa 2:09. The end of the track has the ending noises spread out across the stereo field.

First time made clear by Hurristone: [iorr.org]

His Majesty's just scoring cheap points.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 18:36

Quote
His Majesty
Quote
HenrikBB


? ? ? - Please mention One Official Stereo Release, where PS is in Stereo !
(- beside this strange Yugoslavian release )

Every official version available to buy in shops and online.

Maybe you need to listen again? The bass drum is not totally centred, it is placed slightly to the right. The hi-hat sound subtly spreads out with slight emphasis to the left. A harmonica overdub towards the end of the track comes in on the right speaker, listen close at circa 2:09. The end of the track has the ending noises spread out across the stereo field.

Now this is a very interesting observation !
PS has "normally" been considered to be Mono, - including by me . . .
but I can hear that you have a point ! - Especially regarding the harmonica
at around 2.12, - it DOES come from the right !
The other aspects you are mentioning, - I am not able to hear . . .

You are also right about the "widespreadness" - which makes it slightly different from the Mono-releases . . .

- But now it gets weird, - I can hear the "harmonica-thing" on my first press
UK-Decca vinyl, - and on my early press US-London vinyl, -
but NOT on my early London-Germany-CD or the 2002 DSD-CD ! - ?

IF the regular PS in fact IS Stereo, - either very narrow Stereo, - or maybe
some kind of ERPS-production - which cannot be ignored it can be . . .
(on Dutch-produced "Out Of Our Heads" there are ERPS´s where elements moves from
left to right - or the opposite ) - it sure is interesting !

However, this does not change the fact, that PS is pretty different on this
Yugoslavian BB-release, - but I will have a phase analysis made of it !

Very interesting info ! - Thank you !

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2018 18:43

Quote
ReelStone

First time made clear by Hurristone: [iorr.org]

His Majesty's just scoring cheap points.

Eh, no. I've known it was stereo since I first heard the album and worked out the guitar parts etc in the 90's.

I noticed oddities with the harmonica and commented on it here before that post was made. [iorr.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2018-04-28 18:44 by His Majesty.

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: HenrikBB ()
Date: April 28, 2018 19:02

All Right ! - Please keep me out of this dog fight !

I was aware of the earlier thread, - but when read, I didn't find Hurristone´s
infos very informative, - and certainly didn't like his "style". . .

I'm still not sure if PS actually is in "True (but very narrow) Stereo" - or some kind of ERPS - ?

Re: "Prodigal Son" in Stereo !
Posted by: His Majesty ()
Date: April 28, 2018 19:10

Quote
HenrikBB
All Right ! - Please keep me out of this dog fight !

I was aware of the earlier thread, - but when read, I didn't find Hurristone´s
infos very informative, - and certainly didn't like his "style". . .

I'm still not sure if PS actually is in "True (but very narrow) Stereo" - or some kind of ERPS - ?

Reelstone was just mis-informed. smiling smiley

Just true stereo, but narrow except for that harmonica overdub and the end noises/sounds where you hear the spread more obviously.

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