Hi everyone,

I use a pseudonym on IORR to keep my offline identity separate from my online one, but in real life I'm actually a university professor who writes about music. Right now I'm trying to write something about the Stones' relationship to soul music. Obviously, I've got some things I'm already thinking of, but there are people on these boards with a lot more knowledge than me, so I thought I'd ask for your help.

If anyone has suggestions for connections between the band and soul - either biographical or musical, or anything else - then please post something in this thread. I'm really interested to hear the things that people come up with.

Many thanks

syrel

Soul music, well let's go through their relationship with it.

On their first album, England's Newest Hitmakers, is the cover of Can I Get A Witness, an early Marvin Gaye classic. In 1965, on Out of Our Heads, there's another Gaye cover, Hitchhike, which is again Motown. Like the Beatles with Smokey Robinson's You Really Got A Hold On Me, and their cover of the Marvelettes Please Mr Postman, the early beat groups admired Motown.

The Stones were also familiar with Southern Soul, again like the Beatles covering Arthur Alexander's Anna (Go To Him), and A Shot of Rhythm & Blues, the Stones covered You Better Move On, also by Arthur Alexander, Down Home Girl by Alvin Robinson, and Mercy Mercy by Don Covay. They were also familiar with That's How Strong My Love Is, albeit not the OV Wright version on Peacock, but the rewrite as performed by Otis Redding, which also surfaced on Out of Our Heads.

Many years' later, in 1986, Don Covay sang backing vocals on Dirty Work, specifically Harlem Shuffle, which was a cover of the Bob & Earl soul classic from the late 60s. Furthermore, I also think Ronnie Wood guested on a Don Covay album from the 1990s.

Additionally, the Stones, specifically Ronnie, turned up on Bobby Womack albums. Womack also reciprocated by appearing on Now Look, Ronnie's second solo album. And, of course, Womack wrote It's All Over Now, which was a huge hit for The Stones. Womack was also married to Sam Cooke's widow, Barbara, and Sam wrote Good Times, which the Stones covered on Out of Our Heads. Furthermore, Ronnie's buddy, Rod Stewart covered It's All Over Now on his first solo album, An Old Raincoat.

Returning to the Motown sound. Ain't Too Proud to Beg was covered on the It's Only Rock'n'Roll album, yet bootleg versions of Drift Away (country soul from Dobie Grey), and Shame Shame Shame by Lee and Shirley were also covered at the same time frame.

Soul artists also referred to the Stones, i.e Eugene McDaniels' Jagger The Dagger on the Headless Heroes of the Apocalypse album.

Additionally, The Stones on the 40 Licks tour covered Night Time Is The Right Time, which is from 1957 by Ray Charles on Atlantic Records. On the Bigger Bang tour, they also attempted Mr Pitiful, the Otis Redding tune.

Satisfaction, the Stones classic, was also covered by Aretha Franklin on her Live In Paris album, and likewise Otis Redding from the Otis Blue album. Aretha also covered Jumpin' Jack Flash with Keith Richards playing the guitar, albeit in the mid 80s for the film soundtrack of the Jumpin' Jack Flash film.

I hope this helps.

Tom

Forgot......Just My Imagination, a Temptations classic, covered on the Some Girls album. Produced, on Motown, by Norman Whitfield too; he of the Psychedelic Shack and Cloud Nine, Ball of Confusion fame.

tomcasagranda - what a tremendous piece you have put together which will help syrel.

I had started to run thru my record collection from the Stones 1st album onwards but
have stopped after reading your wonderful reply with full history including original
composers for soul music songs covered by the Stones.

What about their own "soul" style song "Let it loose".

Great list of "soul" covers by the Stones. Re the premise of the opening statement, wouldn't you have to define just what is soul music first - it encompasses much - and look at how it influenced the Stones and other white groups and performers sound/style to eventually define the Stones or other groups relationship to soul music within their own songs/performances? It surely must be more than just saying they covered these songs originally performed by or written by such and such a black artist. Take for instance Mick's stage moves after he saw James Brown at the TAMI show. You can't say he wasn't influenced by what he saw, so, he learned to incorporate James Brown, the Godfather of Soul, into his routines.

And, another question just arose in my thoughts: Who chose the songs they covered on those early albums and why? What image(s) were the Stones trying to put across to their fans and the public by covering these particular songs? This would make a fascinating article or book: The musicography of the Rolling Stones and the sounds that shaped/shape the band. I think many people on IORR would reach such a book. I would.

If it helps here's a list with almost every soul covers the Stones have recorded, although I'm not sure if it's updated:

[www.gerardslinkert.nl]

Have to discuss Billy Preston, who became an important player and influence on the band for a few years.
Just speculation, but perhaps Mick had more of an affinity for soul music because it has so many great songs for a singer. I had read of Harlem Shuffle that Mick said something like, 'It took me 20 years to convince Keith to do it, and two takes to record.

Thanks for the replies so far (I won't name you all individually, but do appreciate all of you replying).

Tom, I'd complete forgotten the Ronnie/Womack connection, that's really useful (though had thought about the Womack collaboration in the Dirty Work sessions). It also made me remember Ronnie's cover of Testify on Slide on This.

Dmay - I will have to answer the 'what is soul?' question at some stage, and I'm really not sure how to do it. At this stage, I'm just thinking 'recognised/established soul singers/songs' and then I'll see where it takes me. That question you ask 'who chose the covers, and why?' is the one I am most interested in answering. I think ALO probably played a big role in selecting their covers, though some of them were obviously part of live sets too.

I'm also interested of biographical stories of when band members crossed paths with soul stars in the early days. I seem to remember a story about James Brown teaching Mick some dance moves at some point - perhaps before the TAMI show? Can anyone point me to a specific account of it?

To give something back to this topic, some notes I've thought about already. I'll add more as we go along...
- Solomon Burke guesting in 2002(?), and Mick performing a tribute to him at the Grammies.
- Stevie Wonder as support in 72 and the Uptight/Satisfaction melody.
- Keith saying that Otis's version of Satisfaction is the only Stones cover the band like (though I need to find a source for this).

thanks again, it's great to get some extra input into all of this.

syrel

As I was typing, Wonderboy wrote his reply - had completely forgotten about Billy, thanks!

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syrel
Keith saying that Otis's version of Satisfaction is the only Stones cover the band like (though I need to find a source for this).

“It took the (Stones) a long time to figure out how to play ‘Satisfaction’ on stage. What made us like it was when Otis Redding covered it. With that and Aretha Franklin‘s version, which Jerry Wexler produced, we heard what we’d tried to write in the first place.”
–- Life, p. 178

Stevie Wonder's "I Don't Know Why" also.

In addition to covers mentioned above, they did an Otis Redding song in 1965, the same year Redding released his version.

I've Been Loving You Too Long: [www.youtube.com]

Otis Redding co-wrote I've Been Loving You Too Long with Jerry Butler, who had a hit in the late fifties with Your Precious Love, a song the Stones covered during their Steel Wheels sessions.

Your Precious Love, 1989: [www.youtube.com]

In the early 2000s the Stones were playing the O'Jays' seventies soul hit Love Train in concert.

Love Train, Paris, 2003: [www.youtube.com]

In truth, one could say that soul music is as fundamental to their heritage and musical identity as blues/R&B, as the genres seem to overlap at times.

Another very interesting twist is then how the Stones put the lessons learnt, to use. It's something they are probably unbeaten at: to take different music styles, and make them Stones music.
An early original is "Heart of Stone". It's in that 6/8 soul shuffle. Again - it is especially fascinating to check out the 3 versions by the Stones themselves.
There is the airy 'Metamorphosis" version, that has nothing to do with soul at all. But then the early Stones 45 is IMO one of their best, and VERY overlooked songs from back then. It is not until they choose to unearth this song on a Live club stage, years later that we (and maybe the Stones too) realize what this song was always meant to be. Jagger's phrasing, the Horns.

I know "You can make it if you try" is a cover, but on that first album I think the courage in their choice makes many of those songs 'theirs'.
Same goes for "time is on my Side" -about as strong and beautiful a soul song they ever did. And the little cousins to TIOMS "Pain in my Heart" or "Cry to Me". These songs all have near classic Soul arrangements. An organ, and especially Brian Jones often would stay on that very straight arpeggio guitar line.
Through out the 60's they preferred a more melodic, commercial style, but IMO it is always there, lingering underneath: "What to Do", Under my Thumb", Long Long While", only to flourish with "Salt of the Earth" and "You Cant always get what you want". The last one, one of the great Stonestracks shows them taking most of their influences and serving them up as Stones.
Two other peaks are "memo from Turner", about as daRk of a Soul groove ever, and "I don't know why" - another cover, but it is the Taylor solo (doubled) that makes this special.
IMO the 70's are the Stones at their most soulful. Entire albums come off as soul. "Sticky Fingers", "Exile" with "I got the Blues, "Shine a Light", Ventilator Blues", Just wanna see his Face". "Let it Loose", one of Keith/ Micks best.
But I often find that the decadent MID-70's, with Keith or Taylor on Phaser guitars, and BU singers like Blue Magic; with Billy Preston and Ronnie wood solo albums in the mix brought out a lot. "Act Together", plus most of Ron's solo.
Around Dirty Work, they mess around with "Loving You is Sweeter" - pretty much a run through; and "Invitation" - a lot deeper. Must be Covay and Womack. But we see the influence on "Sleep", and several of the outtakes.
An outtake from "Steel wheels" that everyone seemed to agree was a big loss is "Precious Love" by Jerry Butler.

This post got away from me. Wrote more than I intended.

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stonehearted
In truth, one could say that soul music is as fundamental to their heritage and musical identity as blues/R&B, as the genres seem to overlap at times.

That's what I'm interested in looking at - I think they are too often just interpreted as a blues/R&B band, when soul is as least as influential to them, in my opinion.

syrel

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
IMO the 70's are the Stones at their most soulful. Entire albums come off as soul. "Sticky Fingers", "Exile" with "I got the Blues, "Shine a Light", Ventilator Blues", Just wanna see his Face". "Let it Loose", one of Keith/ Micks best.

This post got away from me. Wrote more than I intended.

I think the 1969 recording sessions at Muscle Shoals had an influence. I need to go and look at the musical credits on each song, but my impression is that there is more brass on their records from that point on. They also have had at least one brass player on stage from 1971 onwards, I think.

Quote
Palace Revolution 2000
This post got away from me. Wrote more than I intended.

syrel

One way to look at the soul v. blues/r&b question:

The Stones are "faking it" in both genres. But they are better at it in blues tunes than in soul songs. The reason for this, in my opinion, is Mick's voice.

It's a wonderful rock instrument but is revealed in most of their soul covers to be woefully thin and limited. It's one thing to get down and dirty with Muddy, Howlin' Wolf, Slim Harpo, Jimmy Reed. et al. It's quite another to take on the likes of Smokey Robinson on "My Girl." The human voice reigns supreme in soul and Mick's voice is just ... not up to snuff in that particular genre. His voice is not only technically limited but there's just too much self-conscious irony or "posing" in his delivery to be truly 'authentic.'

(The one exception to this is of course "Let It Loose" which is a marvelous vocal.)

A soul cover like "I Don't Know Why" is very successful ... but as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread that success is more a function of band excellence than anything in Mick's vocal.

Quote
Cristiano Radtke
If it helps here's a list with almost every soul covers the Stones have recorded, although I'm not sure if it's updated:

[www.gerardslinkert.nl]

Seems pretty accurate,although not recorded but perfomed at ABB europe leg 2007 l'd like to add the James Brown tribute " I'll Go Crazy " .

First thing I ever heard from them was TIOMS, the version with the organ intro. I thought it was a soul record actually. I was an immediate fan. I didn't know if they were black or white and didn't think to think of it...they played that version A LOt in my market. Sam Cooke had pretty much single-handedly started that sub-genre, and also artist-ownership of label, rights and so on...certain he established the commercial viability when he moved from gospel and started messin' around, successfully, at getting pop hits on the charts and radio.

It's a fine subject; good luck with your studies and writing and teaching.
A lot of great comments here informing me...i'm thinking of Bar Kays & Mar Keys, those guys and where they came from, who they were, who they variously backed...how Otis' version ended up being the Stones horn charts for deacdes on end in stadum for Satisfaction and etc....that whole memphis connection as well as chicago and chess...the horns on sticky fingers are very soulful; on exoms they are incredible punctuation throughout...

...how great 'harmlem shuffle' masters that whole groove...
...also thinking somehow of Sam & Dave, wildly ignored in these celebrations of the Summer of Love '67 when Monkees killed off EVerYBOdy else for record sales...haha

and the Grammy Winner of for best R&B Group or Duo in '67 was Sam & Dave, who live on record, straight from the church into hold on i'm coming,...,
well....they had a couple or ROCKIN" Hits there nobody else can really touch...imo.,

and oh yeah. mick does tina is what L&G is about at it's funkiest and loosest where he really doing dance moves and not so much the modern jazz workout, kinda heavy on the iconic symbols for huge crowds, and running mastefully around the stage with balletic drama and such...yes James Brown coming on right before you, and KILLING IT....got them rubber legs shakin' but Jags had his own beautiful awkward white boy grace, and K was ram rodding electrifc all over his side of the stage....
surely great stuff and a little hesitang Brownism...and Mick's great ferocious direct connection and steeping up into them...good show...
but also very much Tina it seems to me....i think in some ways that might have been the 'end' of his great natural physicality in such electric performance...he's sure great and amazing and death defying,..but they are rehearsed moves, however effective...even all that crazy jumping up in the air and fast running etc....he has good trainers and is excellent athletically...but hey, chek out Sam and Dave live in '67...they have pretty much a little dance solo at the end when the've got the fever worked incredibly high....the first rock and roll show i ever saw had Ben E. King as the lead performer, and you kmow where he came from!! so it's pretty down nitty gritty stuff and the Brit boys were ON to it...not a white face on the bill or in the 2nd line. We didn't even think of that as kids we just lined up for autographs from our heros and got them...
pretty wonderful all those stones and beatles covers, regardless of how different each of these bands are....they are going right for Larry Williams and The Tempts and Sam Cooke, Smoky...all the many the above posters mentioned more comprehensively...

wow that's an incredible link Christiano left!!! The Stones have something like over 75 soul (blues/r&b) recordingsd!! wow. great...
super. a lot of those among my favoritist musics ever...
seriously tho; you need a really tight and right bass player to pull this kinda stuff off...someone natural and unchained at this...

listen to the bass on these great songs from that list and etc...those bands using the memphis horns and such; those great great soul hits...a lot of it just one guitar and one bass and one kit aside from the horns...very central to the low down groove, sweat funk reality of the real soulful thing imo...bill wyman knew who james jamerson was and all the cats ahead of him on Richard and Chucks albums...when r&B met rock and roll and jump...that soul thing almost entirely from the church...historically...and directly...sam and smoky and so many of them straight from the gospel circuit....or heavily heavily influenced...
which goes back to the field hollers if you wanna take your students back to call and response origins and the like....thanks for the thread...

Not sure if this will help but maybe explore their recordings at Muscle Shoals and it's relationship to Stax.

Cool thread, I feel like I'm auditing a course! Good luck!

Speaking of TIOMS (Time Is On My Side), we should link it with Fortune Teller, as both came from Crescent City, New Orleans that is. Fortune Teller was written by Naomi Neville (aka Allen Toussaint), and Time Is On My Side was performed by Irma Thomas, the soul queen of New Orleans.

For what it's worth, Keith Richards returned to Time Is On My Side with Sarah Dash singing the lead on Live at the Palladium. Of course, Sarah Dash has a soul connection, being part of Labelle. Allen Toussaint does a great duet with Irma Thomas on Time Is on My Side from the Treme OST.

Fortune Teller was also performed by The Who, specifically on their Live at Leeds album.

I'm thinking this posting is fascinating, because we can also consider MarY Wells' cover of Satisfaction, made when she briefly joined Atlantic after falling out with Berry Gordy at Motown.

Speaking of the Crescent City sound - Dr John also appeared as the backing keyboardist on Let It Loose. Venetta Fields and Clydie King turn up as backing vocalists on that track. Clydie was a Raelette, and did some great solo recordings in the 60s. She also turns up, from 1980/1981, as one of Bob Dylan's backing singers within the Saved / Shot of Love period. I also think she was in a personal relationship with Dylan.

Venetta Fields was also part of the Blackberries, a group that backed Pink Floyd and Humble Pie amongst others in the 1970s.

Furthermore, if we turn our attention to Merry Clayton, the backing vocalist on Gimme Shelter: she was also a Raelette. She also released a solo album on Ode records, produced by Lou Adler, during which she covered Gimme Sheleter. Additionally, Gimme Shelter was covered by a great blue-eyed soul singer, Ruth Copeland, which was produced by George Clinton.

There's so many roots and branches and this to it. We can even go so far as to the soulful sound of Heart of Stone being covered by The Allman Brothers Band on Hitting The Note, giving the cover some Muscle Shoals depth.

Also, The Rolling Stones had a great soul / blues chanteuse as a support act on their 1978 tour in Etta James. In 1975 on the TOTA they had The Meters, and in 1981 they had Prince, as support acts.

Keith has said that songs like Beast of Burden and Almost Hear You Sigh were heavily influenced by Curtis Mayfield...

has 'Drift Away" been mentioned..?


[www.youtube.com]

I Got The Blues is my favourite of their original soul tunes.

Obviously, it's very influenced by Otis Redding's sound. One of Mick's best performances, imo. Let It Loose is a good as well.

They picked up both the Motown and the Stax-sound, and still sounded like the Stones.

I think they succeed with most covers, although Walk And Don't Look Back didn't work in 2002.

I read somewhere that they considered making a pure soul/Motown type album around the time of IORR.
It wound up having the cover, Ain't Too Proud; Dance Little Sister, sort of a nod to the genre; If you Really Want ..., which is unique in their canon and a good song. Also played around with Drift Away and maybe a few others.
Somebody said Mick and Keith were having artistic difference but they agreed on that genre.

I would say "If you really want to be my friend" is their best soul song. And also one of their most under rated songs as well. A forgotten gem. With Blue Magic doing backing vocals. I Love Jagger's soft tone delivery and I hope if there is new material released he uses it again.

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MisterO
I would say "If you really want to be my friend" is their best soul song. And also one of their most under rated songs as well. A forgotten gem. With Blue Magic doing backing vocals. I Love Jagger's soft tone delivery and I hope if there is new material released he uses it again.

A bit like Through the Lonely Nights imo....

Heart of Stone too in a way perhaps. It's got that slow chugging feel like grand r&b that inspired it; Charlie is doing remarkable little propulsive things on the snare, snap-back kinda a half beats resolving on the two and four...including 8 to the bar push where it feels right; it a r&b voke delivery; the high falsetto ooooohs behind him in places...the repeating guitar lick changing root notes with the progression; has that sameiness of dead-on groove that James Brown could stretch for seven or eight minutes on an album cut...that kind of locks in and enhances the florishes and snapping little pushes Charlies doin...theres the saminess hypnotic thing about the beat but it's seems pretty electric and dynamic as if they are actually playing off of each other while recording a lot of it....i never really looked at it this way before the thread, and just casually listeing to a lot of their various stuff...and happened to listen to it after reading some of the cool posts on this thread and saw it in a different light...it's got a bit of that grand sweeping power of their 1st version of TIOMS that still gets to me...which was covered really nicely by IORRer aboce...i dunno; as far as real deal 'soul music' per se...i dunno how far we ought to try to go; like arthur conley really could not be topped doing his hit you know...haha...that sweet soul music...i think wicket pickett and otis cut it but...
...and maybe not, with Heart of Stone; maybe i'm just grasping at straws and relating it to this thread too much, as it's good one and refreshing and influenceing what i'm listening to and for...it must be at least as rooted in the blues as 'soul' per se...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2017-05-26 06:21 by hopkins.

great thread!