We were dicussing in that possible new album thread about Jagger/Richards colloboration, and specifically, what it takes for Mick Jagger to be inspired. Don't know the answer to the latter, but "Tops", like TATTOO YOU album altogether, is a showcase of Mick Jagger being exactly that, inspired.

Actually the whole album is an incredible achievement of Jagger taking a shitload of vault material in his shoulders, from different eras, and giving it a masterful treatment, lifting it up to absolute greatness. Not that the material wasn't great to begin with it, like with "Tops, yes it was, but what it is crucial for great Stones songs and albums is the final treatment - to really finish them properly. The final form, the focus, the statement, is laid there - in the last meters of song-writing and its vocal delivery. And that's what Jagger is in his best. For example, even the substance of EXILE material was build during a couple of years, it was what Mick did with Keith in Los Angeles (finishing all those melodies, adding over-dubs, writing lyrics and especially delivering the vocals inspiringly) was necessary to give the album the form it has, and actually much of the famous feel the album has. The actual miracle of EXILE happened there. With TATTOO YOU, Jagger did it alone.

I am sure if "Tops", like "Waitin' On A Friend" or "Worried Bout You", would have been released in their 'proper' context, all of them would have been great releases. But still I am convinced that they wouldn't have been so mature, thorough-thought and special as they turned out to be in TATTOO YOU. To say it simply: Jagger wouldn't have been able to such strong contribution earlier than he did in 1981, having more experience on his belt.

I think "Tops" includes one of Jagger's best vocal deliveries of all time (and I don't think he has topped it ever since). Timeless, effortless, rich, natural performance, which suits perfectly to the backing track. If we assume that Keith is mostly responsible for the great, sublime backing track (we should not forget the 'other' Mick though), I think it is a perfect Jagger/Richards colloboration. Musically it belongs to the haunting, reflective, melodic landscapes of GOATS HEAD SOUP era, being stuff the Stones albums had lacked for sometime by then (and since then). I think the reason why TATTOO YOU was - and is - so strong and distinctive and different - is those mid-70's songs offering kind of melodical, reflective, minor note stuff they had released themselves out of in SOME GIRLS (when they decided that they will not grow up). Those gave the album the depthness - or even maturity - the albums since SOME GIRLS seem to lack.

But still "Tops" and TATTOO YOU is a miracle for me. One never can know from where and when the genious arrives. The song and the album is a sum of paradoxes, and my limited Rolling Stones understanding can't really explain how on earth the results turned to be so fantastic (with SOME GIRLS, the last important and huge Stones album, a classic). The great wonder of creativity and inspiration.

Nor what happened to Jagger with the Rolling Stones ever since.

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-05 10:57 by Doxa.

Good post, Doxa.
And I agree completely that "Tops" is one of the best vocal deliveries of Mick Jagger. Absolutely perfect.

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matxil
Good post, Doxa.
And I agree completely that "Tops" is one of the best vocal deliveries of Mick Jagger. Absolutely perfect.

yes, the vocals are good *and* the lyrical content is creative and imaginative - not so much the turn of the phrase as the subject matter.

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Silver Dagger
Glad they saved this song for Tattoo You because it wouldn't have fitted in with Goat's Head Soup.

Here though, it's lush, featherbedding tones are perfect for that dreamy second side (on vinyl) of Tattoo You. (...)

I politely disagree (mildly;-): it wouldn't have fitted in concerning the vocal part and lyrics. But as these were added only later, it's quite interesting to listen to the `72 basic track. Another strong example of the many (too many?) work-in-progress tracks that were floating around before the final tracklist came together. Who knows which melody would have been added, if they had finished it for Goats Head Soup?

Obviously in it's finished form it's a great song and a perfect fit for Tattoo You. But, listening to the instrumental version (which fits nicely with several GHS tracks IMO), I can't help thinking that it lost a bit in terms of subtlety, when the vocal part and lyrics were added.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-05 12:51 by Greenblues.

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matxil
Good post, Doxa.
And I agree completely that "Tops" is one of the best vocal deliveries of Mick Jagger. Absolutely perfect.

Well, I would say that 'Long Long While' is perfect...but Tops is coming pretty Close....

2 1 2 0

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Doxa
We were dicussing in that possible new album thread about Jagger/Richards colloboration, and specifically, what it takes for Mick Jagger to be inspired. Don't know the answer to the latter, but "Tops", like TATTOO YOU album altogether, is a showcase of Mick Jagger being exactly that, inspired.

Actually the whole album is an incredible achievement of Jagger taking a shitload of vault material in his shoulders, from different eras, and giving it a masterful treatment, lifting it up to absolute greatness. Not that the material wasn't great to begin with it, like with "Tops, yes it was, but what it is crucial for great Stones songs and albums is the final treatment - to really finish them properly. The final form, the focus, the statement, is laid there - in the last meters of song-writing and its vocal delivery. And that's what Jagger is in his best. For example, even the substance of EXILE material was build during a couple of years, it was what Mick did with Keith in Los Angeles (finishing all those melodies, adding over-dubs, writing lyrics and especially delivering the vocals inspiringly) was necessary to give the album the form it has, and actually much of the famous feel the album has. The actual miracle of EXILE happened there. With TATTOO YOU, Jagger did it alone.

I am sure if "Tops", like "Waitin' On A Friend" or "Worried Bout You", would have been released in their 'proper' context, all of them would have been great releases. But still I am convinced that they wouldn't have been so mature, thorough-thought and special as they turned out to be in TATTOO YOU. To say it simply: Jagger wouldn't have been able to such strong contribution earlier than he did in 1981, having more experience on his belt.

I think "Tops" includes one of Jagger's best vocal deliveries of all time (and I don't think he has topped it ever since). Timeless, effortless, rich, natural performance, which suits perfectly to the backing track. If we assume that Keith is mostly responsible for the great, sublime backing track (we should not forget the 'other' Mick though), I think it is a perfect Jagger/Richards colloboration. Musically it belongs to the haunting, reflective, melodic landscapes of GOATS HEAD SOUP era, being stuff the Stones albums had lacked for sometime by then (and since then). I think the reason why TATTOO YOU was - and is - so strong and distinctive and different - is those mid-70's songs offering kind of melodical, reflective, minor note stuff they had released themselves out of in SOME GIRLS (when they decided that they will not grow up). Those gave the album the depthness - or even maturity - the albums since SOME GIRLS seem to lack.

But still "Tops" and TATTOO YOU is a miracle for me. One never can know from where and when the genious arrives. The song and the album is a sum of paradoxes, and my limited Rolling Stones understanding can't really explain how on earth the results turned to be so fantastic (with SOME GIRLS, the last important and huge Stones album, a classic). The great wonder of creativity and inspiration.

Nor what happened to Jagger with the Rolling Stones ever since.

- Doxa

Great piece of text. Strangely, I find the vocals on the outtake version (with the falsetto, the 'any dirty old place' version) even better. That's so laid back, and then so frantic with the falsetto. Fantastic. One of my ever fave tracks.

Mathijs

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Come On

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matxil
Good post, Doxa.
And I agree completely that "Tops" is one of the best vocal deliveries of Mick Jagger. Absolutely perfect.

Well, I would say that 'Long Long While' is perfect...but Tops is coming pretty Close....

"Long long while" is definitely another very good one!

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swiss



Still, it was hard for me to get my head and ears around this take being from 1972 Jamaica (or even 1973 Los Angeles). It sounds a lot closer to being finished, and in the style Mick was singing--later on.

Sounds more like the 1980 session referenced below, which does draw on an initial instrumental from 1972.

Exactly. I really can't believe that the Jagger in that supposed 1972 out-take sounds is from 1972/73. The tone and the way he uses his voice is pretty similar, almost too similar, to "Emotional Rescue" by playing with the register of his voice (and each register seem to sound the same in both songs), plus having that laid-back, half-drunk Pathe Marconi feel he had at the time.... Lots of similar nuances. If he really would have done it in, say, 1972, that would have been something totally out of the blue. And that sort of use of falsetto wasn't popular in 1972 yet (if it didn't even existed yet - before the 'disco' era).

Jagger's voice actually had changed quite a lot between 1972 and 1980 if one pays attention..

So my guess is like yours: the backing track derives from 1972, but Jagger vocals from 1980. This sounds like an serious attempt to the direction of final TATTOO YOU version - the released version sounds really being a sharpened version of this one.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-05 17:23 by Doxa.

But then again... I need to take some of my words back. If we listen the "Waiting On A Friend" out-take from 1972, there Jagger is sporting that falsetto again... Maybe he actually was doing those exercises back then, even though they wouldn't see the light of the day until, say, "Fool To Cry".

So who knows...

Hmm... there are some missing pieces here... How sure is that the rather well-known "Tops" and "Friend" out-takes from 1972 - those TATTOO YOU songs - are actually completely from that year? Could there be a some kind of common error occurred here in some stage of bootlegging when identifying the source? Like not noticing a probable Jagger over-dub actually added afterwards? Does anyone know with a more detail the history of those circulated tracks?

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-05 18:00 by Doxa.

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Doxa
And that sort of use of falsetto wasn't popular in 1972 yet (if it didn't even existed yet - before the 'disco' era).

Not too sure what you mean by "that sort of use", but for what it's worth,
several major falsetto vocalists that were popular pre-1972:


Curtis Mayfield
Smokey Robinson
Al Green
Eddie Kendrick
Marvin Gaye
Frankie Valli
Del Shannon

_____________________________________________________________
Rip this joint, gonna save your soul, round and round and round we go......

Well, I pay attention to Jagger's voice (reply to Doxa)
and the alternative/ rough studio outtake 'Tops'
sounds exactly like Jagger 1972-1973, albeit a quaalude undertone, and is discernibly different from Emotional Rescue sessions/ sound.

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Doxa
We were dicussing in that possible new album thread about Jagger/Richards colloboration, and specifically, what it takes for Mick Jagger to be inspired. Don't know the answer to the latter, but "Tops", like TATTOO YOU album altogether, is a showcase of Mick Jagger being exactly that, inspired.

Actually the whole album is an incredible achievement of Jagger taking a shitload of vault material in his shoulders, from different eras, and giving it a masterful treatment, lifting it up to absolute greatness. Not that the material wasn't great to begin with it, like with "Tops, yes it was, but what it is crucial for great Stones songs and albums is the final treatment - to really finish them properly. The final form, the focus, the statement, is laid there - in the last meters of song-writing and its vocal delivery. And that's what Jagger is in his best. For example, even the substance of EXILE material was build during a couple of years, it was what Mick did with Keith in Los Angeles (finishing all those melodies, adding over-dubs, writing lyrics and especially delivering the vocals inspiringly) was necessary to give the album the form it has, and actually much of the famous feel the album has. The actual miracle of EXILE happened there. With TATTOO YOU, Jagger did it alone.

I am sure if "Tops", like "Waitin' On A Friend" or "Worried Bout You", would have been released in their 'proper' context, all of them would have been great releases. But still I am convinced that they wouldn't have been so mature, thorough-thought and special as they turned out to be in TATTOO YOU. To say it simply: Jagger wouldn't have been able to such strong contribution earlier than he did in 1981, having more experience on his belt.

I think "Tops" includes one of Jagger's best vocal deliveries of all time (and I don't think he has topped it ever since). Timeless, effortless, rich, natural performance, which suits perfectly to the backing track. If we assume that Keith is mostly responsible for the great, sublime backing track (we should not forget the 'other' Mick though), I think it is a perfect Jagger/Richards colloboration. Musically it belongs to the haunting, reflective, melodic landscapes of GOATS HEAD SOUP era, being stuff the Stones albums had lacked for sometime by then (and since then). I think the reason why TATTOO YOU was - and is - so strong and distinctive and different - is those mid-70's songs offering kind of melodical, reflective, minor note stuff they had released themselves out of in SOME GIRLS (when they decided that they will not grow up). Those gave the album the depthness - or even maturity - the albums since SOME GIRLS seem to lack.

But still "Tops" and TATTOO YOU is a miracle for me. One never can know from where and when the genious arrives. The song and the album is a sum of paradoxes, and my limited Rolling Stones understanding can't really explain how on earth the results turned to be so fantastic (with SOME GIRLS, the last important and huge Stones album, a classic). The great wonder of creativity and inspiration.

Nor what happened to Jagger with the Rolling Stones ever since.

- Doxa

Great post. Tops has been a favourite since first listen back then.

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Doxa
But then again... I need to take some of my words back. If we listen the "Waiting On A Friend" out-take from 1972, there Jagger is sporting that falsetto again... Maybe he actually was doing those exercises back then, even though they wouldn't see the light of the day until, say, "Fool To Cry".

So who knows...

Hmm... there are some missing pieces here... How sure is that the rather well-known "Tops" and "Friend" out-takes from 1972 - those TATTOO YOU songs - are actually completely from that year? Could there be a some kind of common error occurred here in some stage of bootlegging when identifying the source? Like not noticing a probable Jagger over-dub actually added afterwards? Does anyone know with a more detail the history of those circulated tracks?

- Doxa

There are falsetto spots in Sympathy too.

This used to be one of my least favorite tracks on Tattoo You because I found the lyrics too 'Disney.' I mean the most risque part of this song is Jagger’s audacious rhyming of ‘star’ with ‘pedestal.’ (It's genius really but I don’t think you can do that unless you’re British.) Which isn’t to say I insist that lyrics include explicit references to drugs, sex and violence but the fact is most of the best Stones songs do. I appreciate Tops more today though, the vocals are very good, but I only listen to it till the end for Taylor’s outro.

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GetYerAngie



There are falsetto spots in Sympathy too.

Yeah, there are, a good reminder, like there are some phrases in "Oh Mercy", as pointed out here. And we shouldn't forget Keith's memorable background vocals in "Time Is On My Side" in that early live US TV performance (was it Sullivan?)...

But as far as I can rememeber, only "Fool To Cry", as a first one, provides pieces of song in which a considerable amount of the main melody is done in falsetto (the "Sympathy" part sounds like an extra gimmick to emphasize the devilish statement of the song - a bit like Keith's screaming solo - during tehe "all cylinders on" long outrun). Interstingly, common to "Tops" and "Emotional Rescue", in "Fool To Cry" Jagger seems to mix the falsetto with half-spoken "rap", usually a rather low register parts. Like they are going together in his mind. It would be interesting to know are there any examples of this 'method of contraries' in recorded music. I am sure there are, but nothing comes to my mind now. In any of those examples Hairball listed above (I am sure he hinted at the right direction)?

Anyway, it wouldn't so unthinkable that Jagger might have practised the falsetto singing during GOATS HEAD SOUP era. After EXILE he seemingly was up to a different kind of things, and why not trying to sing in falsetto for longer parts of a song, could have been one of those. That also could go on with the tendency of writing 'heavy ballads' - with or without Billy Preston (hi Charlie!) - he seemed to start doing at the time, and which would cover the years all the way to BLACK AND BLUE. And it could be that he wasn't satisfied with the results until "Fool To Cry" (or to be considered good or fitting enough before that).

But still my ears - in contrary to 35Love's - tell that the particular vocals in that out-take of "Tops" - unlike in "Waiting On A Friend" - are from 1980/81 era. But the old epistemologist in me tells me also that one cannot rely too strongly on a testimony based on sense perception... I know I have made errors in that department many times...

- Doxa



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-06 09:49 by Doxa.

The falsetto was down by Mercy Mercy already.

And some further thoughts... of those 'falsetto going with totally or half-spoken rap parts", I forgot the most famous one: "Miss You".

Probably we could divide the falsetto thing into two eras/sections: those soul inspired heavy ballads, the "Fool To Cry" ones, starting probably already with "Oh Mercy" (think of "Worried About You", and much later, say, "Keys To Your Love"), and those dance-based funk/disco influenced the "Miss You" ones ("Emotional Rescue" being an obvious one, but a thing like "Sweet Thing" as well).

It would be rather easy to put "Tops" musically into first section - pre-"Miss You" stuff - but but... my ears, my ears...

- Doxa



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-06 10:16 by Doxa.

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DandelionPowderman
The falsetto was down by Mercy Mercy already.

Well, how many times this needed to be pointed out...><

I mentioned "Oh Mercy", so if that's another song...

- Doxa

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
The falsetto was down by Mercy Mercy already.

Well, how many times this needed to be pointed out...><

I mentioned "Oh Mercy", so if that's another song...

- Doxa

Ha ha, that's why I didn't see it!

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DandelionPowderman

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Doxa

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DandelionPowderman
The falsetto was down by Mercy Mercy already.

Well, how many times this needed to be pointed out...><

I mentioned "Oh Mercy", so if that's another song...

- Doxa

Ha ha, that's why I didn't see it!

Well, that's part of the problem with sense perception I talked about... we tend to sense things we are already familiar with, and some unpredictable easily escapes our mind and attention... (But I stop here; better leave discussing these kind of matters to other forums....)

- Doxa

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Doxa

Hmm... there are some missing pieces here... How sure is that the rather well-known "Tops" and "Friend" out-takes from 1972 - those TATTOO YOU songs - are actually completely from that year? Could there be a some kind of common error occurred here in some stage of bootlegging when identifying the source? Like not noticing a probable Jagger over-dub actually added afterwards? Does anyone know with a more detail the history of those circulated tracks?

- Doxa

The Tops outtake from 1972 does not have vocals, all vocals where added in 1980. For Waiting on A Friend: the 'Waiting on my friend' vocals are from 1972.

Mathijs

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Mathijs

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Doxa

Hmm... there are some missing pieces here... How sure is that the rather well-known "Tops" and "Friend" out-takes from 1972 - those TATTOO YOU songs - are actually completely from that year? Could there be a some kind of common error occurred here in some stage of bootlegging when identifying the source? Like not noticing a probable Jagger over-dub actually added afterwards? Does anyone know with a more detail the history of those circulated tracks?

- Doxa

The Tops outtake from 1972 does not have vocals, all vocals where added in 1980. For Waiting on A Friend: the 'Waiting on my friend' vocals are from 1972.

Mathijs

Thank you! That's exactly my old ears were telling it to be the case (and like swiss initially proposed in regards to "Tops").


- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2015-11-06 13:34 by Doxa.