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*The past as today's politics*
When references to history totally confuse the point

Victor Davis Hanson, a senior fellow and historian at the Hoover Institution at Stanford University: Tribune Media Services
Published July 29, 2005

History is evoked more and more these days, even as fewer of us read it.

That apathy explains why when public figures turn to false historical analogies for political purposes, they're often given a free pass to exaggerate or distort. Take, for example, filmmaker Michael Moore, who once compared terrorists in Iraq to our own Minutemen, or Yasser Arafat who implied that the taking of Jenin was as brutal as the battles for Leningrad and Stalingrad. Even Sen. Dick Durbin (D-Ill.) recently likened the conditions found in Guantanamo Bay to those in Nazi death camps.

So the next time someone quotes philosopher George Santayana for the umpteenth time that "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it," just assume that what follows will probably be wrong. Having a Rolodex of cocktail party quotes to beef up an argument is not the same as the hard work of learning about the past.

Thus, we are now warned that the war against terror is failing because it has lasted as long as World War II--as if the length of war, not the cost, determines success.

Yet the nearly 2,000 U.S. combat fatalities in Afghanistan and Iraq, while tragic, are a fraction of the 292,000 American battle deaths in World War II--about 0.6 percent, in fact.

The mantra "Bush lied; thousands died" charges that President Bush altered his reasons for the war from the original worry over weapons of mass destruction. But aside from the fact that the U.S. Senate voted for the war on 22 additional counts, wars, rightly or wrongly, have often had a variety of changing public explanations.

Lincoln led the North into the Civil War emphasizing that it was a struggle to preserve the Union, not outlaw slavery. The Emancipation Proclamation was not passed until January of 1863, when enough Union progress allowed Lincoln to publicly redefine a practical struggle of restoration into one of sweeping idealism.

Woodrow Wilson ("He kept us out of war") and Franklin D. Roosevelt ("Your boys are not going to be sent into any foreign wars") won re-election by promising non-involvement in Europe's fighting. Yet, when voted back in, they both prepared for war, convinced that there was no living with either Prussian militarism or Axis fascism.

Since America entered World War I without first being attacked, should we conclude "Wilson lied, thousands died"?

Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.) intoned of the USA Patriot Act he voted for, "We are a nation of laws and liberties, not of a knock in the night." Though, so far, that mild statute pales before exigencies of past liberal wartime presidents who really did jail innocents, night and day, without warning or sometimes even justification.

Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War. During World War I, under the Espionage and Sedition Acts, Woodrow Wilson detained citizens without trial and made it a crime to slander the United States. Franklin Roosevelt convicted and executed saboteurs through military tribunals and sent thousands of Japanese Americans to relocation camps.

We're constantly reminded of the regrettable intelligence lapses from Sept. 11, 2001, onward, but they seem almost minor in light of prior blunders in the fog of war.

Thousands of Americans perished at Shiloh, Pearl Harbor and during the Battle of the Bulge because commanders like Ulysses S. Grant, Adm. Husband Edward Kimmel and Dwight D. Eisenhower didn't have a clue what the enemy was planning.

In our confusion during this war, why do we often ignore history or twist its details to fit our own particular needs?

First, in our schools, formal study of the past has given way to the more ideological agenda of the social sciences. Mastery of historical facts is seen as passe, while the less educated instead "do theory" to prove preconceived notions.

Second, good intentions don't always equal good history. Being politically correct often makes us plain wrong, relegating history to melodrama and negating history's power to put tragedy into context.

Third, we're in thrall to the present affluent age, convinced that our own depressing experiences are unique, naturally dwarfing all prior calamities.

But history is not a parlor game used to prove a political point. Instead, at its best, history should offer us solace that we are never really alone.

Good post,

GIVE WAR A CHANCE !

Duane in Houston Wrote:
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> Good post,
>
> GIVE WAR A CHANCE !

Ditto!!! on the post ... flopping like a fish on the war though

from Harlow in Houston






Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-08-10 21:10 by harlito1969.

I just think alot of people get so caughtup in being anti-war that they forget what we're fighting. The US isnt invading a democratic nation, we've removed a dictator and are working with the people of Iraq to establish a democracy. After that, we're outta there!

I was in Panama in 1989 during Just Cause. My family was on Norriega's blacklist. Our phonelines were tapped. We were followed in public places. Horrible time for any caucasion living in Panama. Then Bush Sr. came in with troops, tookout the dictator, and brough back democracy. Cant tell you how much he was/is a personal hero of mine for that act.

Panama didnt attack the US. The US SAVED Panama from a dictator. Same thing is happening in Iraq except its a war on terror, not just one dictator. There werent terrorist cells in Panama, yet Bush Sr. achieved the same thing his son is achieving: Democracy (AKA: FREEDOM)

awesome drake...bv may shut this one down since it's not directly related to a song, but I have to tell you this...God bless the Stones for stirring the debate. The war on terror won't end in Iraq or in any battlespace, but once the terrorists understand that our love of freedom is greater than their lust to crush Israel, the U.S, and western culture in general (they hate liberal more than anyone!), we'll have some chance for peace.

Well unlike others I put "OT" infront of my post, so I should get some clearance. Honestly I'd rather keep political views a personal matter but Jagger has made it a public matter through the new tune (which I cant wait to hear). Indeed it is awesome to get some debating out there. Especially where it really matters.

A bit of humor: Me and some buddies run a website called Deathsocks.com Its a big joke. Basically its Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" but with sockpuppets. No shit, our website was hacked by Muslim extremists. Checkout the "Stop Jihadin Me" section of the site. I kept the hack intact on the website so that everyone can see it. Its hilarious. Why some Muslim extremist felt like hacking a messageboard on a site about sockpuppets is beyond me.

drake Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> A bit of humor: Me and some buddies run a website
> called Deathsocks.com Its a big joke. Basically
> its Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" but with
> sockpuppets. No shit, our website was hacked by
> Muslim extremists. Checkout the "Stop Jihadin Me"
> section of the site. I kept the hack intact on
> the website so that everyone can see it. Its
> hilarious. Why some Muslim extremist felt like
> hacking a messageboard on a site about sockpuppets
> is beyond me.


I dunno, Drake - where I come from sockpuppets are no joke!

I'll check it out! Ya know, we all should admit that we're enjoying this shit! Too bad we couldn't all be drinking beers at the pub while doing this!!! And T&A, you'd be invited too! Don't be mean now...you love the debate and ya know it! :-)

Very true man. Hell its a rare occasion for me to sitdown with Stones fans PERIOD. Maybe I'll have the pleasure in Chicago and Columbus next month!

Heart of America baby! And one's a red state and the other's blue...please report on reactions to Sweet Neocon! LOL

peace - out

pray for peace -prepare for war...God Bless you all...I'm outta this thread too.

I agree with Jagger when he says '....I think you're full of shit'. We all know, or at least we all should know that Iraq was already on the Bush agenda before 9/11, makes you wonder about the real reason for this war.....I'm just happy to live in a country where the Stones like to rehearse and the government is wise enough to stay out of of stupid illegal wars.

And I think you're ignorant and closed minded. I doubt you even read the article above in completion. And yes, it was on his agenda prior to 9/11. Dictators seem to draw alot of attention these days. Especially when that dictator commits genocide, tests chemical weapons on his own people and commits all sorts of horrible acts, both political and personal. I cant wait to see how his "trial" goes.

<stupid illegal wars>

Whatever opinion we have, the war is still illegal, and that's why people around the world take offense by US actions.

what makes a war illegal? lack of UN approval? talk about fear of globalization! gotta love an organization whose leadership accepts bribes from Saddam and has Cuba and Sudan on its Human Right Commission!!!

Amen.

4tylix Wrote:
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> what makes a war illegal? lack of UN approval?
> talk about fear of globalization! gotta love an
> organization whose leadership accepts bribes from
> Saddam and has Cuba and Sudan on its Human Right
> Commission!!!


now, now - you said you were off this thread!

can't go to hershey park gig because my national guard unit is deploying and i'll miss the show----anyone need the tix see the ticket page....

STONES JAM!! MICKEYS RULES!!! (burp) NADER IN 2016!!!!! GO GIANTS!!

T&A Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> 4tylix Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > what makes a war illegal? lack of UN
> approval?
> > talk about fear of globalization! gotta love
> an
> > organization whose leadership accepts bribes
> from
> > Saddam and has Cuba and Sudan on its Human
> Right
> > Commission!!!
>
>
> now, now - you said you were off this thread!


touche...you got me on that one! :-)

I couldn't resist a response. I'll try to behave. :-)

Peace kills the goose that lays the golden egg

War is illegal, we all know that Bush is lieing, Usa is not there for iraqi freedom, Saddam and Bin Laden were Bush alied!!!, they had bussines with him!!! OIL BUSSINES!, the CIA give Saddam the power, Bin Laden also, dont lie man, we are not stupid, Bush Terrorist Number One!

Drake? Are you currently or have you recently been in the military?

I ain't stupid, I'm just guitarded.

My parents were missionaries in Panama and Costa Rica for 8 years. I grew up around the military for most of my childhood (ages 5 - 13) and have had family in the military. I was there during Just Cause in 89 (Bush removed Norriega). Panama's economy came back and did so well the US handed over the canal earlier than the contact date.

Great post ...Drake we applaud your service to your country here is the simple fact ,The Bush Admisnistration primary goal is to control the immense energy reserves of the Persian Gulf region Irag included that has been the a prime concern of the Western industrial powers since the time when Iraq was created by the British to insure that Iraq oil reserve are out of Iraq hands beside democracy is grass rooted not impossed..thank you copsnrobbers

I'm just curious.
Why does anyone here on this thread think that this subject is suitable on a music site?
Respecting all opions here - and no offense intended - but why not take this conversation to a site dedicated to such matters?

I doubt the Rolling Stones new album and tour are of any consequence to any political websites.

Sites such as this one for some are a form of harmless escapism, whereby they can play Rolling Stones fan without having to concern themselves for a few minutes with what the price of milk is, or what is politically concerning in the world at the moment, or how they are to afford their child's education.

I for one don't consult "Tell me" for current world events unless they Rolling Stones (or at the very least) musically related.

kyle m

Have you ever lent somebody $20 and never seen them again? It was probably worth it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2005-08-12 11:29 by monkey man.

Monkey man we here at copsnrobbers agree we need a "harmless escapism" thats why we bicker with each other here,,regarding "Tell Me " form ...is a little of this a little of that so on.. Monkey man we here at copsnrobbers are perplexed is it true the stones namesake is from the song "Rollin Stone" Muddy Waters and or Mckinley Morganfield...Do you think last nite set list is indicative of this tour songs line up?