The Rolling Stones never hired the Hells Angels for Altamont!
I was the exclusive representative for the tour and I never hired the Hells Angels on behalf of The Rolling Stones.
Sonny Barger said The Rolling Stones never hired The Hells Angels.
The Rolling Stones never hired the Hells Angels--That's the fact!

Welcome back Ron!

Dude everybody knows the Grateful Dead (Jerry in particular) were close with the Angels and that's the connection that got them hired as "security" for the show. I'm a huge Deadhead but the way they cut out of there once they heard the gig wasn't going accordingly to plan still grates on me. The Stones, professionals that they are, stayed and played under less than ideal circumstances.

Hey Ron - really looking forward to your book about the 1969 tour. Stanley Booh's book has long been one of my favourites, but I really loved the different perspective in Sam Cutler's book - so I think yours will be fantastic. Will you be including anything about the business/logistical side of arranging the tour - I find the whole economics of rock tours really interesting and particularly so in the late 60s when the concept of an arena tour was in is infancy.

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mnewman505
Dude everybody knows the Grateful Dead (Jerry in particular) were close with the Angels and that's the connection that got them hired as "security" for the show. I'm a huge Deadhead but the way they cut out of there once they heard the gig wasn't going accordingly to plan still grates on me. The Stones, professionals that they are, stayed and played under less than ideal circumstances.

I think the idea was if they did not play, the Stones could come on a few hours earlier and get the whole concert over sooner. But it turned out that the Stones were waiting for the sun to go down to film their set. Phil Lesh said later that the Dead should have gone on (as scheduled) to fill up the time, but added that when the music was being played is when the crowd was rushing the stage and is when thee Angels were pushing back. No win situation...

From the book Garcia by Blair Jackson

Hi John Lomax-My book includes the 1965 US tour, 1966 US tour, 1969 US tour, Altamont, 1970 Euro tour and Gimme Shelter, as well as my time with the Beatles, Sam Cooke, and many others. Besides the personalities, it deals specifically with the business of the '69 tour, 1970 Euro Tour and the producing of Gimme Shelter!

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john lomax
Hey Ron - really looking forward to your book about the 1969 tour. Stanley Booh's book has long been one of my favourites, but I really loved the different perspective in Sam Cutler's book - so I think yours will be fantastic. Will you be including anything about the business/logistical side of arranging the tour - I find the whole economics of rock tours really interesting and particularly so in the late 60s when the concept of an arena tour was in is infancy.

well then what were they doing there?

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2000 LYFH

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mnewman505
Dude everybody knows the Grateful Dead (Jerry in particular) were close with the Angels and that's the connection that got them hired as "security" for the show. I'm a huge Deadhead but the way they cut out of there once they heard the gig wasn't going accordingly to plan still grates on me. The Stones, professionals that they are, stayed and played under less than ideal circumstances.

I think the idea was if they did not play, the Stones could come on a few hours earlier and get the whole concert over sooner. But it turned out that the Stones were waiting for the sun to go down to film their set. Phil Lesh said later that the Dead should have gone on (as scheduled) to fill up the time, but added that when the music was being played is when the crowd was rushing the stage and is when thee Angels were pushing back. No win situation...

From the book Garcia by Blair Jackson

this show has been officially released on daves picks volume six and it is smokin!!!

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bmuseed
Hi John Lomax-My book includes the 1965 US tour, 1966 US tour, 1969 US tour, Altamont, 1970 Euro tour and Gimme Shelter, as well as my time with the Beatles, Sam Cooke, and many others. Besides the personalities, it deals specifically with the business of the '69 tour, 1970 Euro Tour and the producing of Gimme Shelter!

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john lomax
Hey Ron - really looking forward to your book about the 1969 tour. Stanley Booh's book has long been one of my favourites, but I really loved the different perspective in Sam Cutler's book - so I think yours will be fantastic. Will you be including anything about the business/logistical side of arranging the tour - I find the whole economics of rock tours really interesting and particularly so in the late 60s when the concept of an arena tour was in is infancy.

Fantastic, Ron, the book sounds awesome, really looking forward to it. When are to expecting it will be published? Any chance of autographed copies being sold via mail order to IORRians??

I could say "wait for my book" but I'm not that kinda guy..
For now -
I was told The Angels were at previous free concerts in SF protecting the generators. For this they got all access..more of a 'you watch the electricity and we let you watch the band, close up'. No one hired them.

Just saw this and thought it interesting
November 12, 1966
Hells Angels’ motorcycle gang dance at Sokol Hall, 739 Page St. Grateful Dead performed.

PS-melillo--- They were there for the music

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melillo
well then what were they doing there?

If I may ask about what Pete Knell, longtime H.A. "Frisco" Prez had to say on the Gimme Shelter DVD on Dec 7 KSAN.
He spoke very directly about a meeting with Sam Cutler.

When I first read about the Hells Angels' involvement in Up and Down with the Rolling Stones it seemed so absurd I thought "Is Tony Sanchez making some kind of a joke here?" I was half-expecting a "Ha ha just foolin'" comment further down the page.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-06 22:00 by Title5Take1.

Never mind...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-06 22:09 by 71Tele.

I live in California and am surprised to have only met one person who attended Altamont. She is a neighbor. She said she was back up on a hill and had no idea what was going on in front of the stage. She said in was an exhausting day, but she enjoyed it. I suspect more people than not have that perspective, but it is the thugs that have imprinted the memory of that day.

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bmuseed
I could say "wait for my book" but I'm not that kinda guy..
For now -
I was told The Angels were at previous free concerts in SF protecting the generators. For this they got all access..more of a 'you watch the electricity and we let you watch the band, close up'. No one hired them.

Just saw this and thought it interesting
November 12, 1966
Hells Angels’ motorcycle gang dance at Sokol Hall, 739 Page St. Grateful Dead performed.

PS-melillo--- They were there for the music

Quote
melillo
well then what were they doing there?

Drinking 500$ beer for free...............

"I ain't no cop, I ain't never going to ever pretend to be no cop. I didn't go there to police nothing, man. They told me if I could sit on the edge of the stage so nobody could climb over me, I could drink beer until the show was over. And that's what I went there to do."

You can read this (security part) and make up your mind your self if they were hired or not............
[en.wikipedia.org]

So the question is: Who paid for the beer, so they sit on the edge of the stage so nobody could climb over them

__________________________




Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-06 23:40 by NICOS.

hi bmuseed!

Not to sound unduly Clintonian, but to some degree it seems it might depend on
what the definition of "hired" is.

Was a contract written up on Rolling Stones letterhead, signed by club
officials? Of course not. I would suggest, perhaps, more accurate terms might
be: discussions, and an "arrangement" between individuals involved with the
Rolling Stones and/or planning of the Free Concert, and members of the Hells
Angels.

By 1969 there was already Bay Area tradition of Hells Angels--who by and large
enjoyed live music and partying--attending many Bay Area happenings, concerts,
events, and gatherings.

Further, the notion of the Hells Angels being at a Rolling Stones concert to
"keep an eye on things" began with Hyde Park in July 1969. Yes--of course the
London Hells Angels were just getting their charters at that time, but to my
understanding, they also had been visited by some of the same members of the
Frisco Angels (late 1968/early 1969) who were engaged in dialogue about a Hells
Angels presence at Altamont.

So---and I don't think anyone is saying they're "Shocked shocked there's
gambling going on in the casino!"---but it's not all that anomalous that
members of the California Hells Angels: (a) would have been present at a large
outdoor Bay Area concert--or a free Rolling Stones outdoor concert, or (b) that
an agreed-to role included keeping an eye on things.

Anecdotally, when I was a young teen going to outdoor shows in the late '70s to
mid '80s, the New York Hells Angels were always there, in their own pack to the
side of the stage. Some people at that time called that area "The Hog Farm"
(which is funny because that's also the name of Wavy Gravy's groovy hippie
free-food/nourishment outfit). We never interacted because I didn't know them.

- swiss



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-12-07 13:36 by swiss.

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john lomax
Hey Ron - really looking forward to your book about the 1969 tour. Stanley Booh's book has long been one of my favourites, but I really loved the different perspective in Sam Cutler's book - so I think yours will be fantastic. Will you be including anything about the business/logistical side of arranging the tour - I find the whole economics of rock tours really interesting and particularly so in the late 60s when the concept of an arena tour was in is infancy.

________________________________
Agreed on all counts!

Rock Scully's take in his book is totally different too. As is Phil Lesh's. As is Grace Slick's.

Cannot wait for this book, Ronnie!

- swiss

[btw, john lomax, I just posted a recording I did of Stanley Booth reading the sections of The True Adventures pertaining to the Night Before Altamont.]

I always thought it was common knowledge the dead brought in the angels for
Security. From what I understand, the UK also had a Angels club but were much
More civil - so maybe the stones did not know better?

Many people who went to the show said they had a great time and were not aware
Of any issues. I assume the only chaos was near the stage.

Anyway, it appeared, the dead ran off like a bunch of cowards.

The comment from the film: "if you don't sit down you're not going to hear
Any more music. Now do you all want to go home or what?"is classic. Spoken
like a nursery school teacher threatening the kiddies. You could not write
Anything more absurd...

"It's chaos backstage baby" is another favorite line. I think this came from
Sam Cutler but not sure.

Hi Swiss
RE your point:

"Not to sound unduly Clintonian, but to some degree it seems it might depend on
what the meaning of "hired" is."

Absolutely right to some degree..

Yeah that little bit of news has always pissed me off too. After all weren't the Dead the connection to the bikers in the first place? Chickenshit of them to bugger off.

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bmuseed
The Rolling Stones never hired the Hells Angels for Altamont!
I was the exclusive representative for the tour and I never hired the Hells Angels on behalf of The Rolling Stones.

And you are?

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rob51
Yeah that little bit of news has always pissed me off too. After all weren't the Dead the connection to the bikers in the first place? Chickenshit of them to bugger off.

It's easy to be judgmental about such things, who knows what their true motivations for not playing were. I can certainly see the logic of not performing if their personal safety was at issue.

Harder for the Stones as the headliner and yes lots of respect to them for pulling it off it such adverse conditions. But if the Dead played, that madness would have gone on even longer and possibly even more violence would have occurred, possibly even against the Stones, who knows. I'd say the general feel of "get this show over with" was prevalent in more that just the Dead.

peace

was this the running order of the performers?

santana
fbb
airplane
csny
stones

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footlooseman
was this the running order of the performers?

santana
fbb
airplane
csny
stones

Yes. Dead slated to go on immediately before the Stones.

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swiss

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footlooseman
was this the running order of the performers?

santana
fbb
airplane
csny
stones

Yes. Dead slated to go on immediately before the Stones.

thanks swiss

did they each play around an hour?

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footlooseman

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swiss

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footlooseman
was this the running order of the performers?

santana
fbb
airplane
csny
stones

Yes. Dead slated to go on immediately before the Stones.

thanks swiss

did they each play around an hour?

For many years, I presumed they did -- at least 40 minutes. But now I'm not sure precisely how long each band played, aside from the Stones.

Here is a useful past thread

There are a number of bootlegs of Altamont, but I don't know of any absolutely reliable, totally complete, soup-to-nuts recording of all sets.

I also still haven't definitively determined (tho I also haven't laser-focused on it yet) exactly what time each band went one and came off, or how much time between bands.

Even firsthand accounts of those who were there "time-stamp" different songs and bands at times that sometimes contradict each other (much like everything else in the Altamont story).

One potentially useful data-point comes from a film of CSN playing at Altamont--i.e., it was twilight. The sun set at on December 6, 2969, at around 4:45pm and twilight/dusk lasted until around 5:15. In another clip, Sam Cutler announces it's almost noon and the music is about to start.

What's interesting to me about the CSN factoid is that people (many people) maintain that Mick refused to go on until it was dark out. And that people were kept waiting for a good 40 minutes. But if it was dark by 5:15, and CSN was still playing as the sun set...

In that other thread, acording to that one boot listed, if you add up all the song lengths it appears that most of the sets were quite short. I'll get to the bottom of this, coming up, but it's still a point of haziness. I'd like eventually to have, if not a minute-by-minute timeline of the day, at least a greatly improved, more detailed one.

I love Gimme Shelter, but its artful evocative editing doesn't give you a clean sense of time and timing. (Which is fine! but I also aim to plot the day out more linearly.)

- swiss

When I get to 1969 in my History of Rock & Roll class,
I show a clip from Stones in the Park and then a clip from Gimme Shelter.
Hell's Angels provided "security" at both shows. My students have no trouble seeing
why the Stones camp would go along with the locals' suggestions,
and why they would expect no trouble in December after the experience in July.

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Koen
And you are?

Koen, here's bmuseed's website: [meandtherollingstones.com]

I can definitively say that the devil is in the details.
Details:
The Rolling Stones as a group and individually or me and my corporation never hired or paid for the Hells Angels to provide security.

The Hells Angels did provide security by assigning Angels -more than their usual guarding the generators by taking care of the camera people, the talent and me . With that said: Sonny Barger said no one hired the Hells Angels to be security.

As to the $500 and the beer--I have the original story I got from Sam Cutler while at Altamont. Still not hiring the Hells Angels.

People assume that the Hells Angels were hired because they were providing security. I think that is the false assumption.

a little more info:The Maysles Bros were invited to do the Tonight Show to discuss Gimme Shelter and their other documentaries. They called they asked if I had any message to convey about Gimme Shelter and Altamont while they were on the show, I said, Stop the rumor about the Angels being hired to provide security. During their chat with Johnny Carson they never mentioned it. They told me they forgot in the excitement of the show. I always wondered if that would have made a difference.

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swiss


I love Gimme Shelter, but its artful evocative editing doesn't give you a clean sense of time and timing. (Which is fine! but I also aim to plot the day out more linearly.)

- swiss

thanks again.
artful to say the least but there must be more evidence on the cutting room floor its no zapruder film. a complete MSG would be a start dissappointing even the deluxe GYYYO box is a frankenstein and also no complete altamount footage or audio it was only an hour for the stones. here we are forty five years later with hundreds of thousands of people at an event with an actual film crew there that we dont have more. we have more info on the gettysburg adress from a hundred years previous.

Yes of course the Stones didn't directly hire the Angels, that is pretty much accepted by all the stories I have heard. But I'm pretty sure I read an interview where Sam Cutler did indeed put up the cash for the free beer for them. He was particularly miffed that he never got reimbursed for it and insinuated that that was the original deal.

So whomever originally asked Sam to put up the cash for the beer would likely be the party who could theoretically be the one who "hired" the Angels. The fact that they never reimbursed him is interesting but doesn't really make them any less responsible. And I've no doubt someone gave the Angels the instruction to keep the audience off the 3 foot high stage (ie: security duties), there was nobody else around to do it.

Sam had said several times the show was organized by Santana, Jefferson Airplane, The Dead and CSN&Y with the Stones just being asked to participate, and that these bands people had no idea how to organize a free show of that magnitude at the last minute. A recipe for disaster. Those bands were certainly not the type who would be likely to hire cops to do anything..

Ron, I'm sure your Altamont experience and perspective is somewhat unique and certainly interesting and I'm looking forward to hearing it! But I don't think you need to defend the Stones and their role in hiring the Angels, I think it's pretty clear they were not involved with that aspect of the show.

peace