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Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: René ()
Date: September 29, 2014 09:33

Comments, input and alterations are very welcome!
_______________________________________________________________________________

Star Star
(Mick Jagger / Keith Richards)

Dynamic Sound Studios, Kingston, Jamaica, November 25 - 30 & December 6 - 21,
1972 and Island Recording Studios, London, UK, May 28 - June 20, 1973

Mick Jagger - lead vocals, backing vocals
Keith Richards - electric guitar, backing vocals
Charlie Watts - drums
Bill Wyman - bass
Mick Taylor - electric guitar
Ian Stewart - piano, percussion
Bobby Keys - saxophone

Baby, baby, I've been so sad since you've been gone
Way back to New York City, where you do belong
Honey, I missed your two toned kisses, legs wrapped around me tight
If I ever get back to Fun City, girl, I'm gonna make you scream all night

Honey, honey, call me on the telephone
I know you're movin' out to Hollywood with your can of tasty foam
All those beat up friends of mine, got to get you in their books
And lead guitars and movie stars get in the tub and get your hood
Yeah, you're a star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star
Yeah, a star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star
A star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star

Yeah, I heard about your Polaroids, now that's what I call obscene
Your trick with fruit was kind of cute, I bet it keeps your pussy clean
Honey, I miss your two tone kisses, legs wrapped around me tight
If I ever get back to New York, girl, gonna make you scream all night
Yeah, you're a star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star
Yeah, a star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star
A star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star @#$%&, star
Yes you are, yes you are, yes you are

Yeah, Ali McGraw got mad with you for givin' head to Steve McQueen
Yeah, you and me, we made a pretty pair, ballin' through the Silver Screen
Honey, I'm open to anything, I don't know where to draw the line
Yeah, I'm makin' bets that you're gonna get John Wayne before he dies
Yeah, you're a @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, star
Yeah, a @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, star
A @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, star, yes, you are
A @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, @#$%&, star…
Yes you are, yes you are, oh yeah, give us a kiss, with a twist, come on little girl…

Produced by Jimmy Miller

First released on: The Rolling Stones - “Goat’s Head Soup” LP
(Rolling Stones Records COC 59101) UK, August 31, 1973



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-10-06 11:34 by René.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: September 29, 2014 10:07

Not sure about a lot of those lyrics. confused smiley (Not just the censored bits!)

For example, the last verse sounds like
Honey I'm open every night, I don't know where to draw the line
I'll make a bet that you're gonna get John Wayne before we die.

(And I thought the lead guitars and movie stars were "gonna get themselves beneath your hood." )

However, I'm notorious for getting lyrics wrong. grinning smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 10:08 by Aquamarine.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 10:10

Love the song dearly but this was the start of the Stones by numbers, doing the self-parody thing - trademark Chuck Berry guitar, cartoon lyrics that were revisited on Respectable, She Was Hot and several others since.

I think it was inspired by the whole glam thing. Bowie and Mott The Hoople were copying the Stones - esepcially on Ziggy Stardust and the All The Young Dudes and Mott albums and here's the Stones trying to copy them back.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 10:18

Quote
Aquamarine
Not sure about a lot of those lyrics. confused smiley (Not just the censored bits!)

For example, the last verse sounds like
Honey I'm open every night, I don't know where to draw the line
I'll make a bet that you're gonna get John Wayne before we die.

(And I thought the lead guitars and movie stars were "gonna get themselves beneath your hood." )

However, I'm notorious for getting lyrics wrong. grinning smiley

It's "before he dies", and that's why Mick stopped singing that on the 75-tour when John Wayne was seriously ill. Instead he sang the "Jimmy Page was all the rage/I could not see the reason why"-verse over and over again, but that's another story smiling smiley

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: September 29, 2014 10:39

Yep, it's definitely "you're gonna get John Wayne before he dies", and Polaroids ( no apostrophe),
and "your trick with fruit was kind of cute - I bet it keeps your pussy clean"
and the tasty foam verse has some weird mistakes too - isn't it "their books" (as in address/telephone books)
that the beat-up friends have to get her into? (What would "getting [her] in their gloves" mean?! )

Rene, are you just checking whether we're paying attention, or is a surrogate posting for you? tongue sticking out smiley
Your posts normally get the lyrics way righter than that!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 11:27 by with sssoul.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Beast ()
Date: September 29, 2014 10:42

Love this song! Honey honey call me on the telephone - that verse is my ring tone on my phone smiling smiley If I remember correctly, Mick changed the names in the first line of the final verse to something amusingly topical when they played it at Twickenham in 2003. But I've forgotten who it was that he named! Can anyone recall the names he sang?

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Aquamarine ()
Date: September 29, 2014 10:42

OK, thanks--didn't know he sang the Jimmy Page line more than once! I assume Ronnie found this highly significant. grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Topi ()
Date: September 29, 2014 11:03

Beast, I believe in Twickenham it was:


"Yeah, Billy Bob Thornton's mad with me
For giving it to Angeline"

referring, of course, to Angelina Jolie.

But I forget the rest, sadly, namely, what happened to the John Wayne reference. Can anyone fill in? Couldn't find the clip either.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 11:11 by Topi.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Come On ()
Date: September 29, 2014 11:12

Thought it were 'Goat Head's' 'Rip This Joint' or 'Rocks Off'....Great Rocker....5/5 thumbs up


..she wouldn't say
I said something wrong
Now I long..

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: with sssoul ()
Date: September 29, 2014 11:28

Quote
Topi
"Yeah, Billy Bob Thornton's mad with me
For giving it to Angeline"

LoFL!
I love the Rolling Stones

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 29, 2014 11:43

More I listen EXILE ON MAIN STREET and the previous masterpieces, more I understand the difficulties the band had in creating GOATS HEAD SOUP. Where to go next? I agree with Silver Dagger that 'by numbers' and 'self parody', represented in "Star Star", was one answer to it. Another, probably stronger one, was that of melancholic reflection of "Coming Down Again", "Winter", "100 Years Ago", "Hide Your Love", etc. Even still a rocker like "Star Star" has that kind of melancholy hidden in it, even it tries to be fun at outset. The band, no matter how hot they are, sound a bit tired. The restless 'no worry' party mood and feel they had in EXILE has gone. I take to see that as a sign of 'hangover', after giving everytyhing they have and know and some more in their previous works, culminating in EXILE. And at the same time, they started to reflect that the times were a-changin', a new acts, like Bowie and Bolan, coming around, and they were getting old. Mick and Keith would be hitting 30 very soon..

"Star Star" is an odd track by its mindset. There is some strange mind games going on. Just a little earlier, when promoting EXILE, Jagger had commented critically of new acts like Marc Bolan that "it is still Chuck Berry", and he would like to see something new to happen. I take "Star Star" to make the same frustrated statement musically. "There you have it, we didn't get much further, did we?". It is a musical comment directed to teh whole scene. We have to remember that the whole creative road Mick, Keith and their contemporaries had gone by then, was to develop the stuff Berry (and his contemporaries) had inspired them. Now the Stones making a Chuck Berry pastishe sounds like giving up creatively. They are now back in a place they once started.

So I don't take "Star Star" making any homage to their old hero. It is almost the opposite - almost like ridiculing or making fun of his legacy. They don't sound at all inspired or proud by playing those famous licks and song patterns. They don't sound sincere and honest. They sound like they know very well that this is old-fashionable, and probably not worth a shit. And at the same time younger acts were treating their music as a similar starting point as Berry really once was for them. Bowie was alraedy having fun of "Let's Spend The Night Together", and showing how the 60's musical heritage would be updated to the 70's. Jagger answers by self parody, and emphasizing the features he is best known for: that of sex, and making it as explicit as he can. For some ears that might sound daring, for others a bit cheap. Any case, it is a dangerous route career-wise, and, thankfully, Jagger would not go that extreme again.

But despite of - or because - all of that, I think there is something majestic and masterful in "Star Star". It is a strong contemporary musical statement, no matter how 'twisted' it is, and it reflects so well the state the band creatively was back then. They still had a need to say something, to go somewhere, even though they didn't quite know what it was or where to go, or all they were able to do was a kind of middle finger comment as "Star Star" (which still was very a kind of Stonesy thing to do..). A very fascinating period (moody GOATS HEAD SOUP altogether), and they would never be such a state again. The upcoming 'by-numbers' would sound pretty much different than "Star Star". Some 'by numbers' numbers are more authentic and original than others...

- Doxa



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 11:48 by Doxa.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 11:49

So who's it about then? Carly Simon was the name on everybody's lips at the time. grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 11:55

To be a bit cynical, the same thing can be said about Rocks Off, Doxa - if we peel off the production, that is.

IMO, sometimes it doesn't matter what the song is based on, as long as it's good. It might be one chord, as in Shake Your Hip - or it might be almost symphonic, like Moonlight Mile.

Star Star is all about the lyrics. That's where the piss-take is, not within the music that imo is merely a vehicle for the words.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 29, 2014 12:14

Quote
DandelionPowderman
To be a bit cynical, the same thing can be said about Rocks Off, Doxa - if we peel off the production, that is.


I can't agree with that. "Rocks Off" sounds sincere and honest, the band inspired and proud. "Star Star", by comparison, is a fake (but a damn good fake). Even Keith Richards does not sound having his all heart in it.

But true that the dangers of 'self parody' and 'by numbers' are also slightly present in "Rocks Off", but I think the reference to past sounds like an inspiration, not a trick.

- Doxa

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Beast ()
Date: September 29, 2014 12:17

Quote
Topi
Beast, I believe in Twickenham it was:


"Yeah, Billy Bob Thornton's mad with me
For giving it to Angeline"

referring, of course, to Angelina Jolie.

But I forget the rest, sadly, namely, what happened to the John Wayne reference. Can anyone fill in? Couldn't find the clip either.


Yes, that was it LOL… Thanks, Topi!

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 12:25

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
To be a bit cynical, the same thing can be said about Rocks Off, Doxa - if we peel off the production, that is.


I can't agree with that. "Rocks Off" sounds sincere and honest, the band inspired and proud. "Star Star", by comparison, is a fake (but a damn good fake). Even Keith Richards does not sound having his all heart in it.

But true that the dangers of 'self parody' and 'by numbers' are also slightly present in "Rocks Off", but I think the reference to past sounds like an inspiration, not a trick.

- Doxa

I don't think the self-parody is within the music on any of those songs - just within the lyrics on Star Star, which of course influences the music eventually.

PS: Keith sounds very much like he did on Around And Around + he is playing a good solo with an ending that sounds like he copped off Taylor (the bends) smiling smiley



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 12:25 by DandelionPowderman.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 12:35

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman
To be a bit cynical, the same thing can be said about Rocks Off, Doxa - if we peel off the production, that is.


I can't agree with that. "Rocks Off" sounds sincere and honest, the band inspired and proud. "Star Star", by comparison, is a fake (but a damn good fake). Even Keith Richards does not sound having his all heart in it.

But true that the dangers of 'self parody' and 'by numbers' are also slightly present in "Rocks Off", but I think the reference to past sounds like an inspiration, not a trick.

- Doxa

I don't think the self-parody is within the music on any of those songs - just within the lyrics on Star Star, which of course influences the music eventually.

PS: Keith sounds very much like he did on Around And Around + he is playing a good solo with an ending that sounds like he copped off Taylor (the bends) smiling smiley

The music for Star Star is the beginning of a Stones by numbers blueprint. A prototype Chuck Berry rocker which would be revisited on Some Girls, Emotional Rescue, Tattoo You and which would eventually give way to the stadium rock four to the floor sound from Steel Wheels onwards. I don't recall them doing that on any album from Aftermath to Exile.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 12:48

It was also revisited on Rocks Off, Rip This Joint, Turd On The Run, Tumbling Dice, Stop Breaking Down, All Down The Line, Happy, Brown Sugar and others

The difference was that they added a riff (and in some cases a short bridge/middle eight) and produced the songs more cleverly.

Many of these songs were simply better written songs, of course, but the template wasn't as different as you are hinting. By listening to the Hopkins-tapes, you'll see what I mean - Chuck Berry-boogie and three chords, just like Star Star - but without the "self-parody-lyrics" smiling smiley

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: René ()
Date: September 29, 2014 12:58

I'm sorry with sssoul, you're right, bad one this time, I'm the one who has to pay better attention here!

René

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 13:08

Quote
DandelionPowderman
It was also revisited on Rocks Off, Rip This Joint, Turd On The Run, Tumbling Dice, Stop Breaking Down, All Down The Line, Happy, Brown Sugar and others

The difference was that they added a riff (and in some cases a short bridge/middle eight) and produced the songs more cleverly.

Many of these songs were simply better written songs, of course, but the template wasn't as different as you are hinting. By listening to the Hopkins-tapes, you'll see what I mean - Chuck Berry-boogie and three chords, just like Star Star - but without the "self-parody-lyrics" smiling smiley

Then it's down to laziness in not finishing off a song and revealing your influences. The songs you mention all have an identity of their own - they are Rolling Stones rockers through and through. Star Star is pure Chuck Berry.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 13:13

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
DandelionPowderman
It was also revisited on Rocks Off, Rip This Joint, Turd On The Run, Tumbling Dice, Stop Breaking Down, All Down The Line, Happy, Brown Sugar and others

The difference was that they added a riff (and in some cases a short bridge/middle eight) and produced the songs more cleverly.

Many of these songs were simply better written songs, of course, but the template wasn't as different as you are hinting. By listening to the Hopkins-tapes, you'll see what I mean - Chuck Berry-boogie and three chords, just like Star Star - but without the "self-parody-lyrics" smiling smiley

Then it's down to laziness in not finishing off a song and revealing your influences. The songs you mention all have an identity of their own - they are Rolling Stones rockers through and through. Star Star is pure Chuck Berry.

That was my point exactly. Hearing Star Star on the 1973 tour, with the horns, instantly brought back the feel of Exile for me. So it was a lazy production job indeed.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 29, 2014 13:16

Quote
DandelionPowderman



PS: Keith sounds very much like he did on Around And Around + he is playing a good solo with an ending that sounds like he copped off Taylor (the bends) smiling smiley

Well, Keith Richards is the best Chuck Berry type of player in the world, and he generally succeeds in finding the right and authentic feel and edge in any Berry lick, but I think what he does in "Star Star" lacks that typical Keith x-factor; he sounds like he is doing his Berry thing there in autopilot. To me it sounds like any basic guitarist could play like that if asked some Berry routines, unlike what it is typically with Keith. I wouldn't even compare the bite and freshness he has in "Around and Around" to the by-numbers thing he does in "Star Star". Even though he is technically more competent there (than, for example, in "Around and Around"), and his solo is actually one of his most beautifully structured Berry type of things, I think it simply lacks the 'feel' he has in his best moments (like in Berry-type solo in "Bitch"). So clean, and lacks typical Keith character. Too normal?grinning smiley

This is not to say that what he does is not good - it is! But nothing special, and doesn't move me like his more inspired things do.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 13:17 by Doxa.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 13:38

Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman



PS: Keith sounds very much like he did on Around And Around + he is playing a good solo with an ending that sounds like he copped off Taylor (the bends) smiling smiley

Well, Keith Richards is the best Chuck Berry type of player in the world, and he generally succeeds in finding the right and authentic feel and edge in any Berry lick, but I think what he does in "Star Star" lacks that typical Keith x-factor; he sounds like he is doing his Berry thing there in autopilot. To me it sounds like any basic guitarist could play like that if asked some Berry routines, unlike what it is typically with Keith. I wouldn't even compare the bite and freshness he has in "Around and Around" to the by-numbers thing he does in "Star Star". Even though he is technically more competent there (than, for example, in "Around and Around"), and his solo is actually one of his most beautifully structured Berry type of things, I think it simply lacks the 'feel' he has in his best moments (like in Berry-type solo in "Bitch"). So clean, and lacks typical Keith character. Too normal?grinning smiley

This is not to say that what he does is not good - it is! But nothing special, and doesn't move me like his more inspired things do.

- Doxa

I think another good example is Midnight Rambler. When you think about it the rhythm guitar on MR is pure Chuck Berry boogie but the way the song is assembled is like nothing else the band had ever done before. Totally original and total inspiration. So yeah, maybe self-parody for Star Star is the wrong criticism. Perhaps it should just be lazy rock'n'roll! >grinning smiley<



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 13:58 by Silver Dagger.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 29, 2014 14:31

Quote
Silver Dagger
Quote
Doxa
Quote
DandelionPowderman



PS: Keith sounds very much like he did on Around And Around + he is playing a good solo with an ending that sounds like he copped off Taylor (the bends) smiling smiley

Well, Keith Richards is the best Chuck Berry type of player in the world, and he generally succeeds in finding the right and authentic feel and edge in any Berry lick, but I think what he does in "Star Star" lacks that typical Keith x-factor; he sounds like he is doing his Berry thing there in autopilot. To me it sounds like any basic guitarist could play like that if asked some Berry routines, unlike what it is typically with Keith. I wouldn't even compare the bite and freshness he has in "Around and Around" to the by-numbers thing he does in "Star Star". Even though he is technically more competent there (than, for example, in "Around and Around"), and his solo is actually one of his most beautifully structured Berry type of things, I think it simply lacks the 'feel' he has in his best moments (like in Berry-type solo in "Bitch"). So clean, and lacks typical Keith character. Too normal?grinning smiley

This is not to say that what he does is not good - it is! But nothing special, and doesn't move me like his more inspired things do.

- Doxa

I think another good example is Midnight Rambler. When you think about it the rhythm guitar on MR is pure Chuck Berry boogie but the way the song is assembled is like nothing else the band had ever done before. Totally original and total inspiration. So yeah, maybe self-parody for Star Star is the wrong criticism. Perhaps it should just be lazy rock'n'roll! >grinning smiley<

I think the genious of the Stones, and Keith in particular, was their use of Berry as a starting point for their own original music. There is a lot of Berry in the DNA of their own compositions, such as "Midnight Rambler" and the songs Dandie listed above. Sometimes the original source of inspiration is hided so cleverly that we cannot even recognize it so easily, because the songs sound so original. But with "Star Star" they don't sound like any longer getting outside from Berry land to conquer new fields, but instead copying the master directly. Like not looking outside from Berry but from outside to Berry. And to my ears, don't sound inspired at all. My guess is that it is a bit too easy for them, taking that copying his songs was the first thing they ever did. It is too easy route for them that they can't take it any longer too seriously. A bit like if one is just graduated, he or she is brought back to grammar school... Compared to EXILE rockers, there is a sort of creative 'let's give up', retro feeling in "Star Star". But since Berry is so outfront, I take that to be a some kind of musical statement - they want to do a Berry pastishe, and not even trying anything else. So there is some point there, I hope. Is that lazy rock'n'roll I don't know...grinning smiley


- Doxa



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 14:36 by Doxa.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: drewmaster ()
Date: September 29, 2014 14:40

I just can't get excited about this one. The melody is uninteresting, the production is sub-par, and everyone sounds bored to me. Those misogynistic lyrics are initially amusing but ultimately leave a bad aftertaste. One of the few GHS tracks that don't really work, IMO.

Drew

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Silver Dagger ()
Date: September 29, 2014 14:55

Quote
drewmaster
Those misogynistic lyrics are initially amusing but ultimately leave a bad aftertaste.

Drew

Yeah, it was never one I felt comfortable singing along to if they played it and my wife was with me! >grinning smiley<

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: andrea66 ()
Date: September 29, 2014 15:01

Just listened on the airplane 3 days ago, I could not stop and I re-listened 3/4 more times. Great song

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: Doxa ()
Date: September 29, 2014 15:03

Timeisonourside.com gives us the following quite - and actually confirming the assumption I had:

"Starfvcker is all Mick's (song)". - Keith Richards - 1973

Which makes me wonder about the way it was created. Just assumptions, no facts. Was it initially a kind of joke Jagger was just having fun. Like with "Cocksvcker Blues", in which he just used a derivative basic blues song format into which he added his 'poetic message'? Was the same thing happening here, this time using a derivative Berry format? But now they decided take the joke into a further stage?

Anyway, one reason why I don't find Keith's playing in it very inspired, or not like having his all heart there, could be that he probably wasn't too into Mick's song in the first place (using Berry that pejoratively?).

Mick Taylor, by the way, has said that "Star Star" was the last song they did for GOATS HEAD SOUP.

- Doxa



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-09-29 15:05 by Doxa.

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Date: September 29, 2014 15:15

Obviously, the Stones didn't think of it as a throwaway, since they played it in 72, 75, 76, 78, 81, 2002 and 2003.

I don't find Keith's playing on it uninspired, but I find the rhythm guitar a little too straight - much in the vein of other bands playing rock. One of the reasons why the Stones is my favourite band has to do with how they approach laying down the rhythm tracks.

There are many things I don't like about the studio version: The sound of the guitars, the overall lack of energy etc.

But in no way would I ever criticise the Stones for using the most robust template in rock history to create a song. IMO, it's the execution and the performance that isn't clicking, not the song per se. On LYL it's up there with the El Mocambo numbers, imo.

Once again, it's not degrading in any way musically, to make straight rhythm and blues/real rock'n'roll songs. A 12 bar boogie is not a joke before you make it a joke. And if there is a joke here, it's strongly connected to Mick's words, not the music grinning smiley

Re: Track Talk: Star Star
Posted by: GetYerAngie ()
Date: September 29, 2014 15:27

I understand your points, Doxa. But what you feel are weaknesses of Star Star are, I think, the track's strengths. I think the Berrysque, but understated, solo, that kicks off Star Star is not only a nice semi-parody, but in fact has an interesting post-modern feel to it. It is obviuos that by exile they are almost done in rock-territory - and that is what Star Star states so brillantly. The strongest efforts lies in ballads, soul, disco etc. from EOMS and on.

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