Tell Me :
Talk
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Fortunately the Irish didn't listen when they were told exactly that!
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
From the Independent....8th August 2014
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 01:56 by GuessWho.
If Catalonia leaves, Basques are next and Spain is finished.
If Scotland gain independence, then I don't believe the British Queen will be their head of state. I don't know the ins-and-outs, but how could she remain so, if Scotland are no longer part of the union? I know the old dear is still head of state for those commonwealth nations, but that doesn't concern Scotland.
This is the problem: nobody has thought things through. It's going to be such an administritive and logistical nightmare if the 'yes' vote goes through. OK, what makes one eligable for Scotish citizenship? Birth? Parental decent? Is it going to be retrospective? No, independence is a foolish pipe dream.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 16:45 by Big Al.
The argument was far more complex than what you're describing.
First of all, the 'desire' for some to separate was built on nationalism for sure.
But generally only among francophones in the province. There is also a large minority of Anglophones, especially around Montreal (which as a city would not vote to separate) and allophones (immigrants with allegiance to Canada, not Quebec). As the population becomes increasingly more urban, and encompasses people from different backgrounds emigrating, the numbers don't work.
BUT even more than that, two other arguments were introduced. First, if Canada is 'divisible' then so is Quebec. Meaning that there are large areas of the province, the entire north for instance (80% or so of the province) that is very sparsely populated, mainly native, that would vote to stay in Canada. And Montreal would vote to stay in Canada.
You therefore have a small 'rump' of land around the province that would be remaining to separate.
BUT there is even more. Quebec is heavily subsidized billions of dollars by Canada each year. It is an economic basket case.
Canada's position is, if you separate, you get your percentage of the national debt. Obviously no more subsidies either.
Any thinking Quebecer is saying, if we separate, our standard of living takes an instant and catastrophic hit.
The question then becomes, 'why were we wanting to separate anyway?'.
I don't know what the issues are for Scotland, but for Quebec they really don't have actual issues.
Anyway, that separatist argument is dead...they regularly poll in the low to mid 30 percent range for support and I only see that shrinking over time.
Screaming Lord Jagger!
A rerecording of Sweetheart's Together, as a duet!
I think the main issue for Scotland is that although most of their elected MPs are Labour (some SNP) they are subject to governance by the Conservative/ Lib Dem coalition in London because of the voting in England where there are loads more seats up for grabs. (not Wales as the situation here is much the same as Scotland).
The standing joke is that there are more pandas in Scotland (2 in Edinburgh zoo on loan from China) than there are conservative (Tory) MPs.
There are no doubt other issues but from what I can work out, that's the main one..............it'll be a disaster for anybody in the UK who likes the idea of a government with a social conscience though, if Scotland pull away they'll take their MPs with them, making it even harder to oust and keep the Tories out in future..............
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 18:30 by EddieByword.
All true. I was not attempting to state the case of the pro-independence side in a comprehensive way. The French-speaking population of Quebec has nursed a grudge for very long time. It had the main effect in the 1970s of driving much of the English-speaking banking and business out of the province and harming Quebec's economy.
Yes exactly...I think they have realized that they are hurting themselves unnecessarily.
It's why the infrastructure, roads/bridges/tunnels are crumbling and even collapsing...all from lack of investment, tax dollars etc. starting in the 70s from the fear they may separate.
Sad because it's a great place...love Montreal.
In Quebec as you noted, they suggested keeping the Canadian dollar, to try and placate those that were nervous on the financial side. The rest of Canada just rolled their eyes.
The funny thing is that if the argument is primarily a nationalistic one, it really takes the wings out of that argument if you're going to separate and keep the money and the symbols.
Maybe one of the reasons why the separatists in Quebec lost...building their house in quicksand.
You don't have to be Scottish to know that's what Alex Salmond wants but both the Labour Party and Cons have told him it won't happen.......(nor will they remain in the EU. They'll have to re-apply and prove it's worthwhile letting them be a member....
True, but the EU let in Bulgaria, for God's sake, so I don't really see how an independent Scotland would have a problem. It's likely a moot point anyway, as most believe the "no" vote will win out and Scotland will end up with some further form of devolution.
Residence, just like most other countries, I would imagine.
Talk about your favorite band.
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Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: August 8, 2014 03:05
Mick Jagger, Sting, David Gilmour Sign Letter Urging Scotland to Stay in U.K.
Patrick Stewart, Bryan Ferry and Andrew Lloyd Webber among 200 celebs to lend support ahead of historic referendum next month
by Kory Grow
Rolling Stone
August 7, 2014
(Jim Spellman/WireImage)
More than 200 celebrities, including Mick Jagger, Sting, Stephen Hawking and Helena Bonham Carter, have signed an open letter asking Scots to vote in favor of keeping Scotland a part of the United Kingdom when they vote on an independence referendum on September 18th, The Telegraph reports. "We want to let you know how very much we value our bonds of citizenship with you, and to express our hope that you will vote to renew them," the letter states. "What unites us is much greater than what divides us."
In late 2013, the U.K. passed a bill allowing Scotland to vote on the referendum, which, if passed, would grant independence to the country, which has a population of about 5.3 million people and is about the size of Maine. The celebrities' letter, which is part of a campaign called Let's Stay Together, is meant to give a voice to non-Scots who are not allowed to vote on the referendum. The letter acknowledges that while the right to independence is the Scots' alone, the decision would greatly impact the rest of the U.K.
Historians Dan Snow and Tom Holland organized the letter and plan on traveling around England and Wales over the next month with hopes of getting signatures from the general public. "We believe that the key missing message is a positive, emotional one: not telling the Scottish electorate what to do or what not to do, but telling them how we feel about Scotland, about being part of the U.K. and about our collective place in the world," they wrote on their website.
Other notable Britons who have signed the bill include actors (Judi Dench, Eddie Izzard, Patrick Stewart, Steve Coogan), Olympians (Tom Daley, Steve Redgrave), musicians (Bryan Ferry, David Gilmour, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Cliff Richard, Vera Lynn) and public figures (David Attenborough, Simon Cowell); one notable non-Brit who signed it is Michael Douglas. The Telegraph reports that the letter's signatories have won 18 Olympic gold medals, 44 BAFTAs a Nobel Prize and two Turner Prizes.
Scotland, which was its own country dating back to the ninth century, was first united with England under the name Great Britain in 1707. The countries officially established the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1927. Ireland, which became a part of the U.K. in the 19th century, had parted ways with the U.K. in 1921.
Story from: [www.rollingstone.com]
Patrick Stewart, Bryan Ferry and Andrew Lloyd Webber among 200 celebs to lend support ahead of historic referendum next month
by Kory Grow
Rolling Stone
August 7, 2014
(Jim Spellman/WireImage)
More than 200 celebrities, including Mick Jagger, Sting, Stephen Hawking and Helena Bonham Carter, have signed an open letter asking Scots to vote in favor of keeping Scotland a part of the United Kingdom when they vote on an independence referendum on September 18th, The Telegraph reports. "We want to let you know how very much we value our bonds of citizenship with you, and to express our hope that you will vote to renew them," the letter states. "What unites us is much greater than what divides us."
In late 2013, the U.K. passed a bill allowing Scotland to vote on the referendum, which, if passed, would grant independence to the country, which has a population of about 5.3 million people and is about the size of Maine. The celebrities' letter, which is part of a campaign called Let's Stay Together, is meant to give a voice to non-Scots who are not allowed to vote on the referendum. The letter acknowledges that while the right to independence is the Scots' alone, the decision would greatly impact the rest of the U.K.
Historians Dan Snow and Tom Holland organized the letter and plan on traveling around England and Wales over the next month with hopes of getting signatures from the general public. "We believe that the key missing message is a positive, emotional one: not telling the Scottish electorate what to do or what not to do, but telling them how we feel about Scotland, about being part of the U.K. and about our collective place in the world," they wrote on their website.
Other notable Britons who have signed the bill include actors (Judi Dench, Eddie Izzard, Patrick Stewart, Steve Coogan), Olympians (Tom Daley, Steve Redgrave), musicians (Bryan Ferry, David Gilmour, Andrew Lloyd Webber, Cliff Richard, Vera Lynn) and public figures (David Attenborough, Simon Cowell); one notable non-Brit who signed it is Michael Douglas. The Telegraph reports that the letter's signatories have won 18 Olympic gold medals, 44 BAFTAs a Nobel Prize and two Turner Prizes.
Scotland, which was its own country dating back to the ninth century, was first united with England under the name Great Britain in 1707. The countries officially established the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in 1927. Ireland, which became a part of the U.K. in the 19th century, had parted ways with the U.K. in 1921.
Story from: [www.rollingstone.com]
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 8, 2014 16:19
I wonder how many celebs are on the 'YES' campaign with Sean Connery?
James Bond vs. The Rolling Stones...should be interesting.
James Bond vs. The Rolling Stones...should be interesting.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Stoneage
()
Date: August 8, 2014 16:41
Why should the commander have an opinion about this? He neither lives there (UK) nor pay taxes there. I'll support James Bond here. At least he's a Scotsman.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 8, 2014 18:38
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 8, 2014 19:07
Quote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
letitloose
()
Date: August 8, 2014 22:20
EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion on this, whether you live in Scotland or Outer Mongolia. As a Glaswegian who wants to stay in the UK I welcome Mick Jagger's intervention. ultimately, it will be for those us resident here to make the choice, but I think the Union is safe. I would predict a 60/40 rejection of independence.....but you never know? The Scottish mentality is weird. Push us into a corner, and we WILL cut off our nose to spite our face. we shall see. Interesting that Bowie and jagger have both come out to save the UK. perhaps they should do a song together...!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
KatieGirl
()
Date: August 8, 2014 23:27
Quote
treaclefingers
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: August 8, 2014 23:49
Scots wishing for independence from the Unitrd Kingdom is just nationalistic nonsense.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 01:34
Quote
Big Al
Scots wishing for independence from the Unitrd Kingdom is just nationalistic nonsense.
Fortunately the Irish didn't listen when they were told exactly that!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 01:41
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
GuessWho
()
Date: August 9, 2014 01:56
From the Independent....8th August 2014
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 01:56 by GuessWho.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
cooheid
()
Date: August 9, 2014 02:04
....but if you try sometime you get what you need.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 02:18
Is there a Stuart descendent ready to take the throne of Scotland? I can't understand why they would go through all the bother to break away and still have the Queen of England as their head of state, which is the Yes side's plan, correct?
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
andrea66
()
Date: August 9, 2014 06:14
I am not very well informed about Scotland situation, I only wonder what will happen in europe if Scotland will leave uk. I mean, catalunya, basque region, flemish belgian regions, maybe Veneto region or Alto Adige in italy .. Is the end of europe as we know it?
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 07:50
Quote
andrea66
I am not very well informed about Scotland situation, I only wonder what will happen in europe if Scotland will leave uk. I mean, catalunya, basque region, flemish belgian regions, maybe Veneto region or Alto Adige in italy .. Is the end of europe as we know it?
If Catalonia leaves, Basques are next and Spain is finished.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
thecitadel
()
Date: August 9, 2014 11:04
Breaking-up the UK will impact England & Wales as well as Scotland - so people born and living outside Scotland have a perfect right to comment.
Only the ScotNat extremists seem to want to suppress any contrary comment - very Putin-like. There have been many threats to anyone commenting so well done Mick for standing up and being counted - many haven't had the courage.
For what its worth I don't anyone really understands the impact (positive and negative) for Scotland and for the rest of the UK if there is a vote for independence.
The current status is a constitutional nonsense, with devolved powers in Scotland and not within England; and representation without responsibility for taxation (yes its that way around) in Scotland - so something needs to change for sure.
Scottish nationalists point to Norway as their economic role model, so BV and his compatriots should be yet again proud of the inspiration of their country!!
Only the ScotNat extremists seem to want to suppress any contrary comment - very Putin-like. There have been many threats to anyone commenting so well done Mick for standing up and being counted - many haven't had the courage.
For what its worth I don't anyone really understands the impact (positive and negative) for Scotland and for the rest of the UK if there is a vote for independence.
The current status is a constitutional nonsense, with devolved powers in Scotland and not within England; and representation without responsibility for taxation (yes its that way around) in Scotland - so something needs to change for sure.
Scottish nationalists point to Norway as their economic role model, so BV and his compatriots should be yet again proud of the inspiration of their country!!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Rollin92
()
Date: August 9, 2014 15:27
I'm hoping Keef will come out in support for further Welsh devolution!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Big Al
()
Date: August 9, 2014 16:44
Quote
71Tele
Is there a Stuart descendent ready to take the throne of Scotland? I can't understand why they would go through all the bother to break away and still have the Queen of England as their head of state, which is the Yes side's plan, correct?
If Scotland gain independence, then I don't believe the British Queen will be their head of state. I don't know the ins-and-outs, but how could she remain so, if Scotland are no longer part of the union? I know the old dear is still head of state for those commonwealth nations, but that doesn't concern Scotland.
This is the problem: nobody has thought things through. It's going to be such an administritive and logistical nightmare if the 'yes' vote goes through. OK, what makes one eligable for Scotish citizenship? Birth? Parental decent? Is it going to be retrospective? No, independence is a foolish pipe dream.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 16:45 by Big Al.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 9, 2014 17:25
Quote
71TeleQuote
treaclefingersQuote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
The argument was far more complex than what you're describing.
First of all, the 'desire' for some to separate was built on nationalism for sure.
But generally only among francophones in the province. There is also a large minority of Anglophones, especially around Montreal (which as a city would not vote to separate) and allophones (immigrants with allegiance to Canada, not Quebec). As the population becomes increasingly more urban, and encompasses people from different backgrounds emigrating, the numbers don't work.
BUT even more than that, two other arguments were introduced. First, if Canada is 'divisible' then so is Quebec. Meaning that there are large areas of the province, the entire north for instance (80% or so of the province) that is very sparsely populated, mainly native, that would vote to stay in Canada. And Montreal would vote to stay in Canada.
You therefore have a small 'rump' of land around the province that would be remaining to separate.
BUT there is even more. Quebec is heavily subsidized billions of dollars by Canada each year. It is an economic basket case.
Canada's position is, if you separate, you get your percentage of the national debt. Obviously no more subsidies either.
Any thinking Quebecer is saying, if we separate, our standard of living takes an instant and catastrophic hit.
The question then becomes, 'why were we wanting to separate anyway?'.
I don't know what the issues are for Scotland, but for Quebec they really don't have actual issues.
Anyway, that separatist argument is dead...they regularly poll in the low to mid 30 percent range for support and I only see that shrinking over time.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Harlem Shuffler
()
Date: August 9, 2014 17:40
Why is Sir Michael so concerned about this issue? Is he on the road to the House of Lords?
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 9, 2014 18:01
Quote
Harlem Shuffler
Why is Sir Michael so concerned about this issue? Is he on the road to the House of Lords?
Screaming Lord Jagger!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 9, 2014 18:04
Quote
letitloose
EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion on this, whether you live in Scotland or Outer Mongolia. As a Glaswegian who wants to stay in the UK I welcome Mick Jagger's intervention. ultimately, it will be for those us resident here to make the choice, but I think the Union is safe. I would predict a 60/40 rejection of independence.....but you never know? The Scottish mentality is weird. Push us into a corner, and we WILL cut off our nose to spite our face. we shall see. Interesting that Bowie and jagger have both come out to save the UK. perhaps they should do a song together...!
A rerecording of Sweetheart's Together, as a duet!
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: August 9, 2014 18:26
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
71TeleQuote
treaclefingersQuote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
The argument was far more complex than what you're describing.
First of all, the 'desire' for some to separate was built on nationalism for sure.
But generally only among francophones in the province. There is also a large minority of Anglophones, especially around Montreal (which as a city would not vote to separate) and allophones (immigrants with allegiance to Canada, not Quebec). As the population becomes increasingly more urban, and encompasses people from different backgrounds emigrating, the numbers don't work.
BUT even more than that, two other arguments were introduced. First, if Canada is 'divisible' then so is Quebec. Meaning that there are large areas of the province, the entire north for instance (80% or so of the province) that is very sparsely populated, mainly native, that would vote to stay in Canada. And Montreal would vote to stay in Canada.
You therefore have a small 'rump' of land around the province that would be remaining to separate.
BUT there is even more. Quebec is heavily subsidized billions of dollars by Canada each year. It is an economic basket case.
Canada's position is, if you separate, you get your percentage of the national debt. Obviously no more subsidies either.
Any thinking Quebecer is saying, if we separate, our standard of living takes an instant and catastrophic hit.
The question then becomes, 'why were we wanting to separate anyway?'.
I don't know what the issues are for Scotland, but for Quebec they really don't have actual issues.
Anyway, that separatist argument is dead...they regularly poll in the low to mid 30 percent range for support and I only see that shrinking over time.
I think the main issue for Scotland is that although most of their elected MPs are Labour (some SNP) they are subject to governance by the Conservative/ Lib Dem coalition in London because of the voting in England where there are loads more seats up for grabs. (not Wales as the situation here is much the same as Scotland).
The standing joke is that there are more pandas in Scotland (2 in Edinburgh zoo on loan from China) than there are conservative (Tory) MPs.
There are no doubt other issues but from what I can work out, that's the main one..............it'll be a disaster for anybody in the UK who likes the idea of a government with a social conscience though, if Scotland pull away they'll take their MPs with them, making it even harder to oust and keep the Tories out in future..............
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 18:30 by EddieByword.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 20:57
Quote
treaclefingersQuote
71TeleQuote
treaclefingersQuote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
The argument was far more complex than what you're describing.
First of all, the 'desire' for some to separate was built on nationalism for sure.
But generally only among francophones in the province. There is also a large minority of Anglophones, especially around Montreal (which as a city would not vote to separate) and allophones (immigrants with allegiance to Canada, not Quebec). As the population becomes increasingly more urban, and encompasses people from different backgrounds emigrating, the numbers don't work.
BUT even more than that, two other arguments were introduced. First, if Canada is 'divisible' then so is Quebec. Meaning that there are large areas of the province, the entire north for instance (80% or so of the province) that is very sparsely populated, mainly native, that would vote to stay in Canada. And Montreal would vote to stay in Canada.
You therefore have a small 'rump' of land around the province that would be remaining to separate.
BUT there is even more. Quebec is heavily subsidized billions of dollars by Canada each year. It is an economic basket case.
Canada's position is, if you separate, you get your percentage of the national debt. Obviously no more subsidies either.
Any thinking Quebecer is saying, if we separate, our standard of living takes an instant and catastrophic hit.
The question then becomes, 'why were we wanting to separate anyway?'.
I don't know what the issues are for Scotland, but for Quebec they really don't have actual issues.
Anyway, that separatist argument is dead...they regularly poll in the low to mid 30 percent range for support and I only see that shrinking over time.
All true. I was not attempting to state the case of the pro-independence side in a comprehensive way. The French-speaking population of Quebec has nursed a grudge for very long time. It had the main effect in the 1970s of driving much of the English-speaking banking and business out of the province and harming Quebec's economy.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 9, 2014 21:00
Quote
71TeleQuote
treaclefingersQuote
71TeleQuote
treaclefingersQuote
71Tele
I say Scotland should go all the way. Dump the Queen, bring back the Stuart dynasty and get rid of the pound too. Quebec tried a similar approach as Scotland: "we'll go independent but keep the currency and monetary union, thank you very much". They lost (narrowly), which is the result I predict for Scotland independence.
Quebec realized it didn't want to become another 3rd World country in the Western Hemisphere.
Well, about half realized that...The PQ tried to sell it as "independence lite", to assuage the fears about what would happen economically. Canada was smart to stick to its guns about not assuming Quebec would be able to use the canadian dollar if the Quebec broke away. It would have had the effect of Quebec relying more heavily on the USA, in my view. Be careful what you wish for.
The argument was far more complex than what you're describing.
First of all, the 'desire' for some to separate was built on nationalism for sure.
But generally only among francophones in the province. There is also a large minority of Anglophones, especially around Montreal (which as a city would not vote to separate) and allophones (immigrants with allegiance to Canada, not Quebec). As the population becomes increasingly more urban, and encompasses people from different backgrounds emigrating, the numbers don't work.
BUT even more than that, two other arguments were introduced. First, if Canada is 'divisible' then so is Quebec. Meaning that there are large areas of the province, the entire north for instance (80% or so of the province) that is very sparsely populated, mainly native, that would vote to stay in Canada. And Montreal would vote to stay in Canada.
You therefore have a small 'rump' of land around the province that would be remaining to separate.
BUT there is even more. Quebec is heavily subsidized billions of dollars by Canada each year. It is an economic basket case.
Canada's position is, if you separate, you get your percentage of the national debt. Obviously no more subsidies either.
Any thinking Quebecer is saying, if we separate, our standard of living takes an instant and catastrophic hit.
The question then becomes, 'why were we wanting to separate anyway?'.
I don't know what the issues are for Scotland, but for Quebec they really don't have actual issues.
Anyway, that separatist argument is dead...they regularly poll in the low to mid 30 percent range for support and I only see that shrinking over time.
All true. I was not attempting to state the case of the pro-independence side in a comprehensive way. The French-speaking population of Quebec has nursed a grudge for very long time. It had the main effect in the 1970s of driving much of the English-speaking banking and business out of the province and harming Quebec's economy.
Yes exactly...I think they have realized that they are hurting themselves unnecessarily.
It's why the infrastructure, roads/bridges/tunnels are crumbling and even collapsing...all from lack of investment, tax dollars etc. starting in the 70s from the fear they may separate.
Sad because it's a great place...love Montreal.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 9, 2014 23:45
I do believe the SNP's idea is that an independent Scotland would keep the pound and the Queen as Head of State (as Australia, NZ have). Any Scots here that can confirm that?
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
treaclefingers
()
Date: August 9, 2014 23:49
Quote
71Tele
I do believe the SNP's idea is that an independent Scotland would keep the pound and the Queen as Head of State (as Australia, NZ have). Any Scots here that can confirm that?
In Quebec as you noted, they suggested keeping the Canadian dollar, to try and placate those that were nervous on the financial side. The rest of Canada just rolled their eyes.
The funny thing is that if the argument is primarily a nationalistic one, it really takes the wings out of that argument if you're going to separate and keep the money and the symbols.
Maybe one of the reasons why the separatists in Quebec lost...building their house in quicksand.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
EddieByword
()
Date: August 10, 2014 00:03
Quote
71Tele
I do believe the SNP's idea is that an independent Scotland would keep the pound and the Queen as Head of State (as Australia, NZ have). Any Scots here that can confirm that?
You don't have to be Scottish to know that's what Alex Salmond wants but both the Labour Party and Cons have told him it won't happen.......(nor will they remain in the EU. They'll have to re-apply and prove it's worthwhile letting them be a member....
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
71Tele
()
Date: August 10, 2014 02:10
Quote
EddieBywordQuote
71Tele
I do believe the SNP's idea is that an independent Scotland would keep the pound and the Queen as Head of State (as Australia, NZ have). Any Scots here that can confirm that?
You don't have to be Scottish to know that's what Alex Salmond wants but both the Labour Party and Cons have told him it won't happen.......(nor will they remain in the EU. They'll have to re-apply and prove it's worthwhile letting them be a member....
True, but the EU let in Bulgaria, for God's sake, so I don't really see how an independent Scotland would have a problem. It's likely a moot point anyway, as most believe the "no" vote will win out and Scotland will end up with some further form of devolution.
Re: Mick Jagger Among Those Urging Scotland to Stay in the UK
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: August 10, 2014 02:17
Quote
Big Al
OK, what makes one eligable for Scotish citizenship? Birth? Parental decent?
Residence, just like most other countries, I would imagine.
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