Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
Doxa
Yep, "Plundered" is "Tumbling Dice"'s lost cousin, and me thinks the best thing they have released since TATTOO YOU. But, still, I wouldn't quite compare those two songs in quality, since "Dice" is one of the most perfect recordings they ever have done... The song ("Plundered") has that 'magic' the best Stones cuts have. When it was released; it really made the material they had released for years and decades by then to sound rather cheap, thin and pointless.

- Doxa

The first time I heard it, at work on my computer with cheap ear buds...
I could tell within that first opening verse that this song was going to be something special. It had a feel that I can't really describe except to say that it sounded soulful and real. Jagger's voice was free of all the affectations he has so often used post-81.
I had stopped expecting the Stones to move me like that ever again. And they did it. I think its up there with the greats and it will get better and better.

I was right with you up to the affectation-part

I hear Mick's 'real' voice in PMS. He's older and he has to strain on some of the higher notes, and that may seem nasaly at times, but this ain't the Mick we hear in Streets of Love...I have a theory: I think when Mick is singing from the heart, his register is deeper, because he's having to really sing. Whereas, often he seems like he's just half-assing it, and that's when we get the stangled cat effect.
I think PMS is free of any sign of a strangled cat.

What about the "I thought you needed my loving-part"?

But you're right, there are way worse examples.

I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
What about the "I thought you needed my loving-part"?

But you're right, there are way worse examples.

I'm not hearing what I usually hate..I hear the straining, but not the whine.
We have to take into account that he was 67-years old when he sang those lines. It's like Aretha Franklin. She gets accused of whining and wailing now rather than singing. The truth is her vocal chords are literally shredded from all those years of singing her ass off, and she's lost all her range except for some mid-range...
Aretha can half-ass it too, like Mick. And that's when they don't even bother to strain...and it sounds like a stangled cat.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-08 00:34 by stupidguy2.

Quote
71Tele
I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

I wonder if it has something to do with Keith not really particpating on the new recording. And it sounds like Mick's playing on rhythm guitar. He's more likely to use a minor 7 chord as the foundation for an entire song than Keith.
Keith is more bluesy, Mick more 'pretty' jazzy chords..like Winter, alot of his piano stuff.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-08 00:41 by stupidguy2.

Quote
71Tele
I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

Yeah, but it was already in their rear view mirror. Besides, the best thing about PMS is Bill's bass. They didn't play the great So Young or even Don't Be a Stranger from the Some Girl's bonus cuts either. Doom & Gloom fit into that one tight slot where than can claim they're playing a new song. Keith was lucky they mucked about with One More Shot for a few gigs. Hell, we can't get them to play known rarities, let alone bonus cuts. I'm looking forward to the Sticky Fingers bonus tracks we'll never hear live.

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
71Tele
I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

I wonder if it has something to do with Keith not really particpating on the new recording. And it sounds like Mick's playing on rhythm guitar. He's more likely to use a minor 7 chord as the foundation for an entire song than Keith.
Keith is more bluesy, Mick more 'pretty' jazzy chords..like Winter, alot of his piano stuff.

No, no, it´s Keith. And he would never had any trouble with those wild horses-ish minor chords in open G.

He plays exact the same chords on WH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-08 01:29 by DandelionPowderman.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
71Tele
I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

I wonder if it has something to do with Keith not really particpating on the new recording. And it sounds like Mick's playing on rhythm guitar. He's more likely to use a minor 7 chord as the foundation for an entire song than Keith.
Keith is more bluesy, Mick more 'pretty' jazzy chords..like Winter, alot of his piano stuff.

No, no, it´s Keith. And he would never had any trouble with those wild horses-ish minor chords in open G.

He plays exact the same chords on WH.

The WH chords are more minor than minor 7 though...they have a different feel to them. But yeah, I assumed it was Keith...he can do pretty too..(Slipping Away) I was just wondering because the song seems to have gotten left behind. Maybe because it was a redux.. and we were all supposed to actually believe it was an unearthed classic..vocals and all?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-08 03:06 by stupidguy2.

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
stupidguy2

Quote
71Tele
I think Plundered My Soul should have been a huge hit. The fact that they didn't play it the recent tours and did play the much-inferior (to my taste) Doom and Gloom was disappointing. PMS sounds like the "real" Stones. Doom and Gloom sounds like a Jagger demo.

I wonder if it has something to do with Keith not really particpating on the new recording. And it sounds like Mick's playing on rhythm guitar. He's more likely to use a minor 7 chord as the foundation for an entire song than Keith.
Keith is more bluesy, Mick more 'pretty' jazzy chords..like Winter, alot of his piano stuff.

No, no, it´s Keith. And he would never had any trouble with those wild horses-ish minor chords in open G.

He plays exact the same chords on WH.

The WH chords are more minor than minor 7 though...they have a different feel to them. But yeah, I assumed it was Keith...he can do pretty too..(Slipping Away) I was just wondering because the song seems to have gotten left behind. Maybe because it was a redux.. and we were all supposed to actually believe it was an unearthed classic..vocals and all?

A lot of the WH feels is the unfretted first D string in the open G tuning on acoustic. Serves as a nice drone or suspension, depending on the chord.

Absolutely, Tele. Although this one probably (don't remember) than WH Keith is playing the same chord formations on PMS, so he wouldn't have problems playing it live.

Speaking of WH. I had a close listen the other day. There are three acoustic guitars, none of them in open tuning. The 12-string that starts the song gradually disappears throughout the track, and I believe Taylor plays that one, as well as the Nashville-tuned acoustic. Keith's acoustic chords there sound standard tuning to me.

This means that the first time Keith played it in open tuning, with those droning b minor chords probably was on stage in 1975.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Absolutely, Tele. Although this one probably (don't remember) than WH Keith is playing the same chord formations on PMS, so he wouldn't have problems playing it live.

Speaking of WH. I had a close listen the other day. There are three acoustic guitars, none of them in open tuning. The 12-string that starts the song gradually disappears throughout the track, and I believe Taylor plays that one, as well as the Nashville-tuned acoustic. Keith's acoustic chords there sound standard tuning to me.

This means that the first time Keith played it in open tuning, with those droning b minor chords probably was on stage in 1975.

I always learned it in standard-tuning g...am, bm etc
You are correct DP.. I'd forgotten the chorus where the guitars drop from the am7 to the bm7 .. My favorite part of the song.

Plundered My Dice, a little mix of the two tracks.

There is no doubt about Keith sounding very similar on the two tracks. Charlie as well, imo.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Absolutely, Tele. Although this one probably (don't remember) than WH Keith is playing the same chord formations on PMS, so he wouldn't have problems playing it live.

Speaking of WH. I had a close listen the other day. There are three acoustic guitars, none of them in open tuning. The 12-string that starts the song gradually disappears throughout the track, and I believe Taylor plays that one, as well as the Nashville-tuned acoustic. Keith's acoustic chords there sound standard tuning to me.

This means that the first time Keith played it in open tuning, with those droning b minor chords probably was on stage in 1975.

Really? I used to thank that then came to the opposite conclusion (because of the ringing "drone" string I mentioned earlier).

Quote
71Tele

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Absolutely, Tele. Although this one probably (don't remember) than WH Keith is playing the same chord formations on PMS, so he wouldn't have problems playing it live.

Speaking of WH. I had a close listen the other day. There are three acoustic guitars, none of them in open tuning. The 12-string that starts the song gradually disappears throughout the track, and I believe Taylor plays that one, as well as the Nashville-tuned acoustic. Keith's acoustic chords there sound standard tuning to me.

This means that the first time Keith played it in open tuning, with those droning b minor chords probably was on stage in 1975.

Really? I used to thank that then came to the opposite conclusion (because of the ringing "drone" string I mentioned earlier).

From what I can tell that ringing chord occurs once or twice in the song when two guitars clash together. I suspect Taylor's nashville tuned guitar doubles with Keith. When we hear Keith in the verses we hear the F# in the b minor chord, something that is impossible when playing the chord we're talking about in open G.

I know we've had this discussion before, but this is what I'm hearing

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
71Tele

Quote
DandelionPowderman
Absolutely, Tele. Although this one probably (don't remember) than WH Keith is playing the same chord formations on PMS, so he wouldn't have problems playing it live.

Speaking of WH. I had a close listen the other day. There are three acoustic guitars, none of them in open tuning. The 12-string that starts the song gradually disappears throughout the track, and I believe Taylor plays that one, as well as the Nashville-tuned acoustic. Keith's acoustic chords there sound standard tuning to me.

This means that the first time Keith played it in open tuning, with those droning b minor chords probably was on stage in 1975.

Really? I used to thank that then came to the opposite conclusion (because of the ringing "drone" string I mentioned earlier).

From what I can tell that ringing chord occurs once or twice in the song when two guitars clash together. I suspect Taylor's nashville tuned guitar doubles with Keith. When we hear Keith in the verses we hear the F# in the b minor chord, something that is impossible when playing the chord we're talking about in open G.

I know we've had this discussion before, but this is what I'm hearing

You might be right, DP...I have played this song for 30 years and only recently started playing it in open G on acoustic, but now that I have done it I don't want to switch back to standard!

I do it Stripped-style myself, throwing in Ronnie's licks before the B minor chords as well

OK, it seems as though the guitar nerds have hijacked this thread...let's go in the other direction, lyrics. First of all, I have absolutely no problem with Tumbling Dice's lyrics, but I think PMS's hit higher marks...look:

"Plundered My Soul"

Can you believe it,
I've won no medals
In this love game.
I've been resting on my laurels,
I'm a bad loser,
I'm a yard off my pace.

I smell rubber
And I soon discover
That you're gone for good.
My indiscretions
Made a bad impression,
Guess I was misunderstood.

I thought you needed my lovin',
But it's my heart that you stole.
I thought you wanted my money,
But you plundered my soul.
(Plundered my soul)

I started askin' around,
But your friends'
Pretty lips were sealed.
I wrote a letter
Full of trite confessions
About wounds that heal.

I heard some gossip,
You'd become an alcoholic,
You were dryin' out.
So I phoned every clinic
In the Yellow Pages,
Not a trace I found.

I thought you needed my lovin',
But it's my heart that you stole.
I thought you wanted my money,
But you plundered my soul.
(Plundered my soul)

I hate quittin',
But I'm close to admittin'
I'm a sorry case.
But on quiet reflection,
My sad rejection's
Not a total disgrace.

But I do miss your quick repartee
And the smile
That lights up your face.
You'll be a hard act to follow,
A bitter pill to swallow,
You'll be tough, you'll be tough to replace.

I thought you wanted my lovin',
But it's my heart that you stole.
You were a trick up my sleeve,
My ace in the hole.
I thought you wanted my money,
But you plundered my soul.

Oh, plundered my soul
Oh yeah (plundered my soul)
You plundered my soul
Yeah, yeah (plundered my soul)
Oh, yes, yes, yes you, baby
(Plundered my soul)

Tumbling Dice

Wo Yeah! (Wo, wo)
Women think I'm tasty, but they're always tryin' to waste me
And make me burn the candle right down,
But baby, baby, I don't need no jewels in my crown.
Cause all you women is low down gamblers,
Cheatin' like I don't know how,
But baby, baby, there's fever in the funk house now.
This low down bitchin' got my poor feet a itchin',
Don't you know you know the deuce is still wild.
Baby, I can't stay, you got to roll me
And call me the tumblin' dice.
Always in a hurry, I never stop to worry,
Don't you see the time flashin' by.
Honey, got no money,
I'm all sixes and sevens and nines.
Say now baby, I'm the rank outsider,
You can be my partner in crime.
But baby, I can't stay,
You got to roll me and call me the tumblin',
Roll me and call me the tumblin' dice.
Oh, my, my, my, I'm the lone crap shooter,
Playin' the field ev'ry night.
But baby, I can't stay,
You got to roll me and call me the tumblin' dice, (Call me the tumblin')
Got to roll me (yayes), Got to roll me, Got to roll me (Oh yeah)
Got to roll me
Got to roll me (yeah)
Got to roll me (Keep on rolling)
Got to roll me (Keep on rolling)
Got to roll me (Keep on rolling)
Got to roll me
My baby, call me the tumblin' dice, yeah
Got to roll me
Baby sweet as sugar (Got to roll me)
Yeah, my, my, my yeah (Got to roll me)
I went down baby, oh
Got to roll me (hit me)
Baby I'm down

OK now back to the guitars

He he, isn't it "Can't believe it", Treacle?

Quote
DandelionPowderman
He he, isn't it "Can't believe it", Treacle?

I took the lazyman way and just copied from a lyrics website.

Quote
DandelionPowderman
He he, isn't it "Can't believe it", Treacle?

I hear 'Can you believe it..?'
Like he's looking back on a life time of mistakes and speaking to this one person and saying,
I really f**** it up didn't i?
And then going back to that 'rejection' and how that sparked off a well of sadness and regret..like he never got over it, but didn't learn a lesson...he could never really quite move on emotionally. He froze. Like that person in your life you drove away, and you can't replace it, but you try.
And I would only make one ammendment to treacle's ..
In the second verse, I hear a past tense in..
'I smelled rubber..and soon discovered..
you were gone for good'.
Mick's songs seem to always position him as the victim, where the woman does him wrong, a blues tradition, and I see this song as someone finally realizing or acknowledging that it was all his fault..like he sees it now.
In a way, like an apology, an epiphany free of ego and pride.
Like, 'I'm a real bastard, aren't I?'
This could apply to any one of his women, but I happen to think its referencing his marriage to Bianca and how he contributed to its demise. The bitterness really seeped into his lyrics in the aftermath of this relationship. From most accounts, she divorced him because of his ways, and he seemed (most of the songs on Some Girls, ER, etc)blindsided..('I smelled rubber..')not the other way around. The Exile rerelease seemed to be about looking back, and embracing his past, and this was a relationship that is directly connected to that time. He's older, was seemingly maturing with Lwren and it showed because that's the only way you can really see the past clearly.
And when he sings,
'On quiet reflection, my sad rejections not a total disgrace..'
To me this means that he moved on and loved other people, had experiences that shaped his life that he cherishes and does not regret..like, 'if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have had all this..' (Jerry? Children etc..)
And yet, there always seems to be that one person in our lives..
'I do miss..'
It's never really over, but it's ok and we live with it.

Ok, that's all conjecture, but if I didn't think the music was from the heart, I'd be a Journey fan.
See what you began treacle?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-08-09 20:39 by stupidguy2.

What if the song lyrics are really a veiled reference to Mick Taylor and his leaving Stones-looking back at it and how Jagger feels about it now? That also could've been part of the inspiration of asking him to add some leads to it. In the song Jagger created an allegory of a failed love affair for the loss of Taylor from the group.

Wow, that is great analysis SG2, and I agree with you.

I think the faux bravado of the past has given way to more reflection and introspection and perhaps a ting of regret.

Don't get me wrong, I like the faux bravado lyrics and especially when I was younger I could fist pump with the best of them.

But it's nice that the lyrics have evolved.

Quote
big4
What if the song lyrics are really a veiled reference to Mick Taylor and his leaving Stones-looking back at it and how Jagger feels about it now? That also could've been part of the inspiration of asking him to add some leads to it. In the song Jagger created an allegory of a failed love affair for the loss of Taylor from the group.

The best thing about this song?
It makes you wonder doesn't it?
It means something and I haven't wondered about a new Stones song in a long time.

Quote
big4
What if the song lyrics are really a veiled reference to Mick Taylor and his leaving Stones-looking back at it and how Jagger feels about it now? That also could've been part of the inspiration of asking him to add some leads to it. In the song Jagger created an allegory of a failed love affair for the loss of Taylor from the group.

Well that's an interesting take, but if it were true, then what you'd see is the 'make up' from the past, take Mick Taylor on tour with the band, and allow him to actually PLAY SOME SONGS.

I'm still trying to figure out the logic of dragging that poor guy around the world for one or two songs per night, and then dancing to Satisfaction at the end with an acoustic strapped around his neck.

That mystery is right up there with where the hell did DB Cooper go? and where is Jimmy Hoffa buried?

On top of that, dragging him into the studio to put those sublime lead parts on PMS and then NEVER PLAYING THEM LIVE!

OK, I'm getting myself all worked up...time for a coffee (yeah I know, that's not likely to help!)