Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
Do you think Taylor seemed cold towards his replacement at the shows/videos you've been to/seen?

Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
I forgot that Taylor and Wood played a show together a while ago.

Ronnie and MT have played several shows together, both prior and subsequent to Taylor's 2012 "return".

MT's also been at a couple of Ronnie's art openings, most recently in Stockholm.

Animus exists only for those that imagine it.

Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
one of the comments in this video of CYHMK? from Philly Night 2 points out something I didn't notice; Taylor glaring down Wood. They said,

Do you think Taylor seemed cold towards his replacement at the shows/videos you've been to/seen?

No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-08 19:56 by Chacal.

Quote
Chacal

Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
one of the comments in this video of CYHMK? from Philly Night 2 points out something I didn't notice; Taylor glaring down Wood. They said,

Do you think Taylor seemed cold towards his replacement at the shows/videos you've been to/seen?

No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.

Ouch.. so then they simply stopped playing it..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-08 20:24 by DoomandGloom.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
Chacal

Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
one of the comments in this video of CYHMK? from Philly Night 2 points out something I didn't notice; Taylor glaring down Wood. They said,

Do you think Taylor seemed cold towards his replacement at the shows/videos you've been to/seen?

No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.

Ouch.. so then they simply stopped playing it..

Simply sounded better is not quite the top priority it once was.

Ronnie is MT's greatest champion within the Stones. Pity the rest of the guys don't listen to him; if they did, maybe they'd record more often, too.

Quote
MingSubu

Quote
ronkeith72
MT Loves Woodie, I know this for a fact. I saw MT and Woodie do a blues show in NYC and it was fantasic. I still cannot fathom why the Stoners decided to diminish MT's role, instead of steadily increasing it but I assure you Woodie/MT are close.

I was at 2 of these shows. They seemed like they got along real well. I highly doubt they would of done these shows if they were not friends.

Saw them in a Radio Interview shortly before the show - and they were great together.

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
Chacal

Quote
BeforeTheyMakeMeRun
one of the comments in this video of CYHMK? from Philly Night 2 points out something I didn't notice; Taylor glaring down Wood. They said,

Do you think Taylor seemed cold towards his replacement at the shows/videos you've been to/seen?

No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.

Ouch.. so then they simply stopped playing it..

Think it had to do with timing. Taylor was really incontrol of that number, and I think Jagger and maybe Richards felt it could turn into a 20 minute jam, so they axed it.

Quote
Roadster32

Quote
Captainchaos
in woods 'autobiography' when Taylor played at that mid 80s gig Woods says Taylor overplayed, was too loud, keith was pissed at him for it & gave him daggers on stage, missed his chance that kinda jibe. TBH I've not seen any pics of Keith looking anything other than his usual happy self on stage

Thanks to the internet and Boots you can listen to it yourself and find that alot of what Ronnie said isnt right so comes across as abit insecure and catty?

If anyone does overplay its more so Woods rather than Taylor. boots from alleged soundboard to audience boots have taylor as the quieter of the 3 gtrs, some put this down to having no mic on his amp, that he was loud onstage etc, but when you listen to dif source boots from audience boots to supposed soundboard boots taylor's fairly level or low in the mix.

Theres a fair bit where taylor looks for some space in a tune, plays alittle, only for wood to step on it. if you listen to other boots off the same tour it's more so wood overplaying.

That was decades ago and the band wasnt particularly great either, alot of waters passed under the bridge since then.

On the good side, its great to hear Taylor playing on songs from after he left, i think on BOB theres some nice touches. I think alot of people were hoping that Taylor would be incorporated more ala this gig in terms of songs played and its defo great to hear 3gtrs but it did get messy in parts. It was a one off, no rehersal, nerves so is as expected really. kinda like seeing your ex with the latest, can make both the old and new feelin abit jittery?

Woods and Taylor have great contrasting styles that together can create something interesting and
imaginative, that showed in the gigs they played together.

His name is WOOD not WOODS !!!

One of these moments I looove IORR :-)))))))))

Quote
Brstonesfan
They seem by all accounts to be friendly. However, the misuse/non-use of MT on the tour is inexcusable. It rests solely on MJ who 1) cannot let someone other than him shine on stage and 2) the sad fact that other than RW, none of the other members including Jagger can carry the tempo that Taylor is still able to play at....the ancient form of weaving has long been an excuse for no lead guitar!!!!!!!!!

YOU LEAVE CHARLIE OUT OF THIS!!! Blame the guitarists/singer!

Quote
Chacal


No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.

How do you know all this?

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I still haven't heard Ronnie "butcher" ADTL...

If that's butchering to you, then I wonder why you like the Stones in the first place

This is just a bad YT-clip with Ronnie low in the mix, where he misses a couple of notes. Not uncommon for any of the guitarists during the band's history.

We can always play Silver Train from Japan again

Remember that NONE of these guys are what they were in the 70s, even though we sometimes get the romantic notion that they are...

Even though I knew this thread would have no merit, I figured I'd read it to see what people had to say. These type threads always come up when there is "down time". They happen on sports boards all the time in the offseason to keep interest.

That being said- since everyone is stating what they think instead of actually knowing, I will say.. I think Ronnie and MT are closer than anyone else in the band right now and have been friends for decades- maybe not close like they are now. Ronnie probably heard and saw all those reports of MT in bad health and poor and felt some sympathy and helped him to get him back on his feet again. I think he has been successful.

While I think the majority would like to hear Taylor on more- it isn't going to happen. A few of you have stated that the reason they do not play Sway or CYHMK is because MT wants to run the show and y'all are probably right. Chuck and his metronome are not able to stay on time and the band gets out if whack because you have a guitar player leading instead of the drums.

I think MT on Satisfaction with an acoustic low in the mix happened after the posted listenings of MT noodling next to Ronnie while Keith was playing. I wish someone would post the last version of Satisfaction with MT on electric and you'll see also that the boys probably listened to the show and said- hey MT we really need an acoustic playing....

At any rate- we should be promoting peace and harmony not trying on find conspiracy theories about our favorite band.

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I still haven't heard Ronnie "butcher" ADTL...

If that's butchering to you, then I wonder why you like the Stones in the first place

This is just a bad YT-clip with Ronnie low in the mix, where he misses a couple of notes. Not uncommon for any of the guitarists during the band's history.

We can always play Silver Train from Japan again

Remember that NONE of these guys are what they were in the 70s, even though we sometimes get the romantic notion that they are...

What bothers those who say those things is that MT's ceiling is much, much higher than either of the other two. Sure, he can make mistakes but he's not going to do "just getting by" type of solos like most of Ronnie's are. I think RW has been very good to MT, so I'm not trying to start anything, but it kind of feeds into the overall vibe around here, where the majority aren't interested in aiming higher risk-wise and quality-wise, let's just be satisfied with what we have at their age. Entertaining, but not interesting.

One thing to think about is that Keith and Woodie have been touring
and recording 10,000+ more shows over the past 40 years then Mick.
And they both have traveled the world many times over working very hard making rock and roll.

Mick I'm sure is excited to play. Play anything. He never has had the schedule that Keith or Ronnie
had to keep and I'm sure he just wants to play and rock away.

While Keith and Woodie are in it for the LONG HAUL. They seen it and done it all before.

Quote
hot stuff
One thing to think about is that Keith and Woodie have been touring
and recording 10,000+ more shows over the past 40 years then Mick.
And they both have traveled the world many times over working very hard making rock and roll.

Mick I'm sure is excited to play. Play anything. He never has had the schedule that Keith or Ronnie had to keep and I'm sure he just wants to play and rock away.

While Keith and Woodie are in it for the LONG HAUL. They seen it and done it all before.

So your point is that while his old bandmates were 'slaving away', there was no need for Taylor to work and he was just enjoying his time off for 38 years ? Making money for doing nothing ?

Yes, there was probably a difference in schedule.
Which of the following scenarios would you say is more challenging:

A] touring with the Rolling Stones, which involves:
- going on the road with an army of appr 160 personnel to support the band and take care of their every need
- staying in 5* hotels with 24/7 roomservice, concierge and all the luxury you can imagine such as use of the spa, fitness centre, massages, beauty treatments
- using a private plane to get from A to B, no need to stand in a queue or show your passport
- getting several days between gigs to 'recover' from playing one 90-120 min show
- dining in the best restaurants
- being driven to and from the venue in a limo
- always having a security guard at your disposal
- being able to call on the services of a personal assistant (and in KR and RW's case: PA to the assistant), stylist, tourdoctor, travel agent, guitartech, accountant etc
- knowing you'll be back in your cosy hotelroom within 20 minutes after the final chord is played
- getting the option to bring your partner and/or family on the road
- knowing exactly how much money will be deposited in your account and getting paid per diems

OR:
B] going on a tour of bluesclubs in - for instance - America, which involves:
- having to cover 600 mile (or more) distances between shows
- travelling in a van for up to 8 hours
- doing a show every single night, without any days off
- staying in motels, with only the most basic facilities
- not knowing when or if you'll have time to eat dinner
- not alwasy getting the opportunity to check in at the motel/hotel before you have to go on stage and entertain an audience
- loading the backline in and out of the van and setting it up on stage
- employing your own sound/light engineer who travels in the same van with you, but needs to find time to do a soundcheck at the venue before the show starts
- having to tune your own guitar and repair any broken strings during or after the show
- find a way to get faulty equipment repaired between shows
- get your laundry done while travelling
- deal with a broken down vehicle despite being on a tight schedule
- no security to protect you from aggressive or unpleasant people
- spending up to two hours at the venue after the show to meet fans and sign items for them
- carrying the show yourself by playing the guitar and singing and being a bandleader
- waiting after the show until everyone (musicians and personnel) is ready to leave and equipment has been loaded
- dealing with clubowners that may or may not have made an effort to promote the gig and may cancel the engagement on showday without giving you advance notice
- having to cope with everything by yourself
- not knowing how much money you will make from the tour but still having to cover all the expenses and wages



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-09 20:36 by Chacal.

Its a different kind of stress..

I think Keith and Woodie got used to THEIR way of playing and
performing when they are on a world wide tour.

It may not be right but its THEIR way. I'm not in their shoes
but I think playing in from of 18,000 fans whether you feel like it
or not may be harder then playing in front of 165 people. Mostly
because you can't just cancel because you don't feel like playing.

The money paid to The Stones demand that they give a concert that most fans
love---And it works for them.

With the amount of money paid in advance to the Stones you just can't cancel a tour
or gig because you are sick or not up to it. The Stones of today need to be just as good today
to the very end of the tour. Each concert the fans expect the same old GREAT Stones concert.

The fact remains the same that the Stones have been more active with big tours then
Mick Taylor has been in the last 30 years.

I also think that Mick Taylor is having a blast being part of the band again.

Sadly he only has to plays on 2 songs. Which makes it a little bit easier then playing for a solid
2+ hours.

And we may never know why he plays on only 2 songs.

Quote
StonesCat

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I still haven't heard Ronnie "butcher" ADTL...

If that's butchering to you, then I wonder why you like the Stones in the first place

This is just a bad YT-clip with Ronnie low in the mix, where he misses a couple of notes. Not uncommon for any of the guitarists during the band's history.

We can always play Silver Train from Japan again

Remember that NONE of these guys are what they were in the 70s, even though we sometimes get the romantic notion that they are...

What bothers those who say those things is that MT's ceiling is much, much higher than either of the other two. Sure, he can make mistakes but he's not going to do "just getting by" type of solos like most of Ronnie's are. I think RW has been very good to MT, so I'm not trying to start anything, but it kind of feeds into the overall vibe around here, where the majority aren't interested in aiming higher risk-wise and quality-wise, let's just be satisfied with what we have at their age. Entertaining, but not interesting.

Why should it bother me? I'm just saying Woody didn't butcher anything, by RS (including MT) standards.

I'm happy for Taylor, and I really hope he will record with the band again. But he is not who he was in the late 60s, and people (including Mick Jagger) knows that very well.

It is YOU that are saying Woody plays a "getting by-solo", not the 50.000 who were there. Do you somehow know better than those who enjoys this?

Seasoned musicians usually claim that it doesn't matter much whether you play in front of 200 or 20.000 people.
The thing is, you can't put on 'half a show' just because the audience is smaller. So apart from the fact that a bigger production means there is more staff and overhead involved, what you do as a guitarplayer (for instance) is basically the same: play to the best of your ability and try to send the fans home feeling happy.

Of course in many ways this is easier when you know that all other details are taken care of and you don't have to worry about a broken tube in your amp or if you will be able to make it to the next venue in time.

So this means the main difference is that touring on a small budget is more demanding and stressful because you have to do a lot more of the footwork yourself, concern yourself with logistics, travel, money/accounting, equipment etc - and you may sometimes have to skip dinners and some days you will not even have time to relax, or get a sufficient amount of sleep.

Being part of a big production, it is probably easier to put on a show on the days you don't feel like it, simply because there is more 'machinery' to fall back on and not every single person will immediately notice that you're merely 'going through the motions' instead of giving it 110 %. It is also possible to hide imperfections by using sound/light effects as a distraction method or by turning someone that is having an off day down in the mix.
Playing with a smaller band, you can guarantee that mistakes will be heard.

Quote
hotstuff
With the amount of money paid in advance to the Stones you just can't cancel a tour or gig because you are sick or not up to it

This is not actually true.
I think you must have noticed that he Stones have called off shows due to Jagger's laryngitis and have cancelled dates after Keith's 'library ladder incident'. Part of the 2006 tour was cancelled due to his 'tree accident', and most recently a tour of Australia/NZ could not go on due to the tragedy with L'Wren Scott.

Fortunately for them, they have excellent insurance so at the end of the day, there is no financial damage to them. How different for a smaller band that is feeling the consequences of a cancelled show even when it was not their fault (e.g. because a promoter may have run off with the profit) directly and will be out of pocket that same evening but still have to pay for their hotel despite not having earned any money.

As for being active with big tours: While it's true that Taylor's tours have not been on the same scale, he's had to go on the road all the same to make a living.

Quote
hotstuff
Each concert the fans expect the same old GREAT Stones concert.

Really, is that what the fans expect ? Same old predictable show and no changes to the setlist ?
If that's true (and I doubt it), it sure is a great way for the band to 'make easy money'.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-09 22:51 by Chacal.

Chacal-

did you catch a few rehearsals? love to hear more about this..

No matter what chummy relations may exist, that intense look is Taylor's non verbal communication to Ronnie. He is letting RW know they're going to play Can't You Hear Me Knocking HIS way.

When they first started rehearsing it with MT, most of the band thought they'd be using the arrangement they were familiar with (which included a solo from Woody).
And Taylor made it clear he was not in agreement, and demonstrated how he thought it should be played. I believe there was some discussion or almost an argument about it. In the end, the main decision makers relented and went along with Taylor's idea because it simply sounded better.

Its real easy---The Stones have been playing bigger and longer tours then Mick
Taylor has had in the last 30 years.

Mick Taylor hasn't had a tour of any size in the USA in a very long time.

Yes its real easy to walk out or play a short set when you are playing in front
of 160 people.

The Stones have been getting great reviews for their current tour.
So Keith and Woodie must be doing something right.

Please don't try to compare the reason why Jagger postponed his Australian tour
to not just being in the mood to play. Or feeling a little under the weather.

This is not to put down Mick Taylor. But to defend Ronnie and Keith.

They have been rocking the world for a very long time. With some ups and some
downs but they have been in the forefront of the music business and have been very successful.

Sadly we can't help it if some people have health problems. Hard to play if you are not healthy.

We have been blessed that the STONES have been in pretty good health.

hot stuff:

I would not say that all of the Rolling Stones are in excellent or even good health.
The last US tour they did comprised 18 dates. And by any standard, that's not a very long tour. The only reason it took 2 months to complete is that there were 2 - 4 days of rest and relaxation between all gigs.
Taylor used to do 30 shows in 5 weeks time. It's possible that his tours have escaped your attention.

It seems to me you're looking at Keith and Ronnie through rose-tinted spectacles while losing sight of some realities.

You said earlier it is not possible for the Rolling Stones to cancel shows.
I tried to explain why this is not an accurate representation of the facts.

Losing a first-degree relative or partner may be a reason to cancel a show/tour, just like being unconscious in ICU is also a legitimate reason.
I was not comparing anything, but it would seem rather callous for you to imply that Taylor was simply 'not in the mood to play' when his US dates could not take place 4 years ago.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-09 23:26 by Chacal.

People keep saying how easy it is for the stones - I really don't get this and we have released it endlessly but to summarise ...

mick training to destruction, charlie playing through a bad back, keith playing through arthritis - it's a big deal for all of them money or no money - mick T may have his own issues - lots of chitter chatter about this too - but let's not underestimate the effort for all of them !

Quote
EJM
People keep saying how easy it is for the stones - I really don't get this and we have released it endlessly but to summarise ...

mick training to destruction, charlie playing through a bad back, keith playing through arthritis - it's a big deal for all of them money or no money - mick T may have his own issues - lots of chitter chatter about this too - but let's not underestimate the effort for all of them !

Of course there is a major effort required to put this show on the road, but once it gets into gear, it's kind of 'plain sailing'. That is, compared to what other musicians (of lesser name and fame) have to do in order to make a living.

Jagger keeps fit, with the help of a personal trainer. I would be very surprised if a qualified person would advise him to 'train to destruction'.
As for Charlie's alleged back problems: I believe he experiences some muscle tension/pain when he starts rehearsing after an extensive lay off. It improves in time and with the help of a masseuse.
Keith does have arhritis but while I imagine this has to affect his dexterity, he has not made specific statements about it or mentioned if it is causing any pain.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-09 23:49 by Chacal.

you have to take your hat off to ronnie - he's really the worlds biggest rolling stones fan while at the same time being in the stones.

what a team player and friend that guy has been to the band over the years,he's done everything to help keep the stones rolling,including never missing a gig no matter what his health and putting up with an amazing amount of crap from the diva twins.

the situation with mick taylor is no different,ronnie is friends with taylor and would probably like him back full time with a three guitar line-up if it would make the band better.

Quote
lem motlow
you have to take your hat off to ronnie - he's really the worlds biggest rolling stones fan while at the same time being in the stones.

what a team player and friend that guy has been to the band over the years,he's done everything to help keep the stones rolling,including never missing a gig no matter what his health and putting up with an amazing amount of crap from the diva twins.

the situation with mick taylor is no different,ronnie is friends with taylor and would probably like him back full time with a three guitar line-up if it would make the band better.

And look what he gets in return - from RS fans...

When Mick sings flat, it's "nice try".

When Ronnie plays a decent solo, it's "butchering"...

Quote
lem motlow
you have to take your hat off to ronnie - he's really the worlds biggest rolling stones fan while at the same time being in the stones.

what a team player and friend that guy has been to the band over the years,he's done everything to help keep the stones rolling,including never missing a gig no matter what his health and putting up with an amazing amount of crap from the diva twins.

the situation with mick taylor is no different,ronnie is friends with taylor and would probably like him back full time with a three guitar line-up if it would make the band better.

plus he's made a bundle with his prints and paintings of his bandmates.

has he done any of Mick Taylor?

Not "official", but a sketch from Paris in February:



Just done a quick sketch of Bobby Keys & Mick Taylor in rehearsals #stonesonfire

[twitter.com]

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
StonesCat

Quote
DandelionPowderman

Quote
DoomandGloom

Quote
DandelionPowderman
I still haven't heard Ronnie "butcher" ADTL...

If that's butchering to you, then I wonder why you like the Stones in the first place

This is just a bad YT-clip with Ronnie low in the mix, where he misses a couple of notes. Not uncommon for any of the guitarists during the band's history.

We can always play Silver Train from Japan again

Remember that NONE of these guys are what they were in the 70s, even though we sometimes get the romantic notion that they are...

What bothers those who say those things is that MT's ceiling is much, much higher than either of the other two. Sure, he can make mistakes but he's not going to do "just getting by" type of solos like most of Ronnie's are. I think RW has been very good to MT, so I'm not trying to start anything, but it kind of feeds into the overall vibe around here, where the majority aren't interested in aiming higher risk-wise and quality-wise, let's just be satisfied with what we have at their age. Entertaining, but not interesting.

Why should it bother me? I'm just saying Woody didn't butcher anything, by RS (including MT) standards.

I'm happy for Taylor, and I really hope he will record with the band again. But he is not who he was in the late 60s, and people (including Mick Jagger) knows that very well.

It is YOU that are saying Woody plays a "getting by-solo", not the 50.000 who were there. Do you somehow know better than those who enjoys this?

Taylor will not play the same thing twice, it is in his DNA. Alive his peers are few, he is an improvisational warrior. It is to be respected that he's stuck to his guns and refuses to be a copycat. By "RS standards" Wood's part is fine but Ronnie is also a great guitarist, a true artist for contributing to fresh material. He plays the parts he created on record beautifully but falls short as a cover guy trying to mimic MT.. When you really think about it, it's a bizarre world where one of England's greatest improvisors sits out on songs he helped fashion. As far as being not what he was, Taylor has shown some signs of utter brilliance despite being handicapped to popping onstage and being instantly terrific. Singapore's MR, La's CYHMK are the best 2 guitar moments this band has had in a decade. Sadly Taylor has no great band, material or frontman skills to do diddley on his own. That does not take anything away from the fact that he is in a unique class of rock guitarists, unafraid to mess up from time to time as he delivers fearless improv to an audience and world that forgot what rock guitar is really about.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2014-07-10 04:32 by DoomandGloom.

You put it much better than I could, and DP, I was referring to those who were turned off by Ronnie's playing on signature Taylor parts as being bothered, not you, when he's standing 20 feet away watching.