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DoomandGloom

Here's the best evidence for Taylor playing in the band. Last night Keith and Ronnie both played the same part trading Chuck licks, neither one holding down the song.

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DandelionPowderman

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DiamondDog7

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stonehearted


What is it about the concept of "special guest" that so many here don't seem to understand?

I think some of us expected that MT would be used the right way on the RIGHT songs during this tour. We've accepted him as a special guest. Fine by us. But we as REAL Stones-fans know that MT played a crucial role on Sway, CYHMK, TWFNO, Ventilator Blues etc etc. NOT on acoustic guitar on Satisfaction. I think it bothers us the most... MT not playing the right songs and the ammount of songs. It doesn't have to be the whole concert. But a little bit more than 2 songs.

For many fans (who's "real" anyway?) MR w Taylor on Brussels is the holy grail. Why should he play on Ventilator Blues instead, a song he's not playing a lot on?

Sway and CYHMK are cool, but the band needs to rehearse those songs more, imo.

IMO, it would have been cool having Taylor on the newer songs as well - OOC, for instance.

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Dreamer
surprise,surprise! I like that one! Yeah, but it's still a fun thing...

It's the WHY and the HOW that people are mixing up sometimes.
This is an interesting thesis about the how. Concepts fly around in that process so you can imagine someone came up with the idea to have them join as a suprise guest and others came up with the idea to do that on every show...that evolved into what it's happening now I guess.
Born out of a good and nice idea.
At the same time there is a why (the need) because maybe some problems elsewhere created that question. So the how and the why meet. That's where creativity and business meet. The guy who's steering this is someone who always comes with a solution. He's doing a great job handling calculated risks and anticipating uncalculated risks. With the intention of producing a great tour. With just a few left unhappy. And they can feel used and I understand that...
But again: when you sign the deal you deliver. Even if you just signed because you need the cash. And you know they take it away out there with huge promotion and stuff: shake things up...that's how it works and you know that. That business can be fun man...RW is having fun for years and years even when he wasn't a full member. He never complained but had fun. So it's an attitude thing as well. There's the business, the music, the attitude. He doesn't like the business but makes a deal with them because he needs the cash. We talk about his attitude and his music is, oops spoiler alert, not as legendary good on all songs he plays as people like us to believe... Above all it's not what the audience is used to for decades so it's a smart move to limit him to MR and one or two other songs.
And he knew that before he signed...

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gotdablouse

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Dreamer
surprise,surprise! I like that one! Yeah, but it's still a fun thing...

It's the WHY and the HOW that people are mixing up sometimes.
This is an interesting thesis about the how. Concepts fly around in that process so you can imagine someone came up with the idea to have them join as a suprise guest and others came up with the idea to do that on every show...that evolved into what it's happening now I guess.
Born out of a good and nice idea.
At the same time there is a why (the need) because maybe some problems elsewhere created that question. So the how and the why meet. That's where creativity and business meet. The guy who's steering this is someone who always comes with a solution. He's doing a great job handling calculated risks and anticipating uncalculated risks. With the intention of producing a great tour. With just a few left unhappy. And they can feel used and I understand that...
But again: when you sign the deal you deliver. Even if you just signed because you need the cash. And you know they take it away out there with huge promotion and stuff: shake things up...that's how it works and you know that. That business can be fun man...RW is having fun for years and years even when he wasn't a full member. He never complained but had fun. So it's an attitude thing as well. There's the business, the music, the attitude. He doesn't like the business but makes a deal with them because he needs the cash. We talk about his attitude and his music is, oops spoiler alert, not as legendary good on all songs he plays as people like us to believe... Above all it's not what the audience is used to for decades so it's a smart move to limit him to MR and one or two other songs.
And he knew that before he signed...

Would that guy me one Mick J. ?

Lost of good posts here and it seems we've looked at it from all possible angles now. The bottom line is that every fan's "dream" of seeing Taylor play on more songs that once seemed possible after he was involved in the LA rehearsals, got a third song at Echoplex and even four at LA/3, and got involved again in the Paris 2014 rehearsals with "new" songs from his era, ST and TTNG, is gone. Instead with the recent events it seems the best we can hope for is that he'll stay on board with his two songs, well one really.

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Stoneage
I wonder if the average Stones tourist even know if he's on? He isn't even properly introduced. With the limited spot he is given he doesn't make a difference. Whether he's on or not doesn't matter.

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Stoneburst

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stonehearted
What is it about the concept of "special guest" that so many here don't seem to understand?

We understand the concept perfectly well. We just don't accept that a former member of the band, one of the greatest guitarists of all time, a key ingredient in the finest albums and live shows ever recorded and performed by anyone, should be limited to 'special guest' status.

It's cheap, it involves a strong element of ritualistic humiliation (as Bill Wyman saw), and it demonstrates a total lack of interest in the music on Jagger/Richards' part.

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triceratops

The PTB (powers that be) in the Stones are humiliating-punishing MickT. They did it to Bill Wyman who complained...I kinda see a pattern here. We can see Bill Wyman treatment was not a one off.

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triceratops

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Stoneburst

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stonehearted
What is it about the concept of "special guest" that so many here don't seem to understand?

We understand the concept perfectly well. We just don't accept that a former member of the band, one of the greatest guitarists of all time, a key ingredient in the finest albums and live shows ever recorded and performed by anyone, should be limited to 'special guest' status.

It's cheap, it involves a strong element of ritualistic humiliation (as Bill Wyman saw), and it demonstrates a total lack of interest in the music on Jagger/Richards' part.

The PTB (powers that be) in the Stones are humiliating-punishing MickT. They did it to Bill Wyman who complained...I kinda see a pattern here. We can see Bill Wyman treatment was not a one off.

This also extends to the hard core fans who by 90% want to see more MickT. The Stones PTB are doing a passive-aggressive tease number on us. Ritualistic as you put it. All three parties get spanked because of X or Y or Z no one knows.....!

I am not a shrink. I just play one on the internet

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Bastion

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Stoneage
I wonder if the average Stones tourist even know if he's on? He isn't even properly introduced. With the limited spot he is given he doesn't make a difference. Whether he's on or not doesn't matter.

Reminds of a couple of comments I saw on YouTube for the Glastonbury performance, went something along the lines of:

"Wow, The Stones were on fire! Sucks how they have to bring out a session guitarist for the harder stuff though"

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dcba

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DoomandGloom

Here's the best evidence for Taylor playing in the band. Last night Keith and Ronnie both played the same part trading Chuck licks, neither one holding down the song.

You might have a point but look at the implications of your comment :
the band needs MT to strengthen the live sound -----> the Stones have never been better with Taylor -----> the 1975-2007 "Ron Wood" years have been years of mediocrity

Obviously that's not sth Jagger's willing to accept, hence the one-song slot offered to MT.
Whether we like it or not "Live With Me" will be played the way it's been played since 94-95, that is with Keef and Ron. If you want MT on it listen to GYYO.

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DandelionPowderman

The Brian fans might love today's SFTD, for instance, since it's closer to what they consider the best version.

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Gazza


Youtube comments. The ultimate yardstick for credibility or more likely a good testing ground for the theory that we are surrounded by a sub-species of utter f**kwits.

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DoomandGloom
Mick sees him as a loose cannon on stage ready to toss little bits of sabotage into the show in quiet response to his treatment. Witness the insane electric Satisfaction or Shanghai's feedback solo. They are a little afraid of what he might do, justified or not this is what I see. If the universe has any justice The Stones will need Taylor at some point of this tour and he'll have his night. In the end I don't feel sad for Taylor as I don't think he's a very nice guy or has done all he can to play the game and get more stage time but the music is suffering without him, how he sits during ADTL and plays on Slipping Away melodrama trash is an historic outrage.

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alimente
I can't recall SadDayBadDay's posts, but sometime ago I posted some thoughts on this "Taylor-game" that were quickly deleted which made me believe that they were either too ridiculous or too close to the truth!

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MarkSchneider
Chuck Leavell's factor



(Chuck Leavell's as a musical manager)

[www.rollingstone.com]
By Patrick Doyle November 26, 2012

To prepare for the Stones' blistering 23-song set in London, Leavell acted as musical director during the Paris rehearsals, sifting through their rich 400-plus song catalog while fielding suggestions from Jagger and the rest of the band. "I can't remember the last time Charlie Watts or Ronnie Wood have come up and offered [set list] suggestions," he says. "Mick and I talked about it on several occasions, really, in the early stages of the rehearsals, and I made up varied lists. I make up a list every day of what I think the band should be rehearsing, and then I also had a separate list that is songs that we have yet to try to play that I think may have merit. We have tried to look very hard at all of the various eras of the band's career and tried as best as possible to represent those eras. Fifty years is a long time, man!"
...
For fans heading to future shows, looking at last night's set list may provide some spoilers. "The bottom line is that, only having a limited number of shows, obviously we're not gonna go crazy with swapping around songs in the set list," says Leavell. "In other words, we don't want to go too too deep at this juncture."...


On RELIX type "chuck leavell" or
[www.relix.com]
Here is an excerpt regarding guests and MT
Chuck Leavell Talks Stones Tour
by Mike Greenhaus on April 10, 2013
"...
Guest Stars
It’s been great to have [former Stones] Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor, and guests like Mary J. Blige, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Florence Welch, Gary Clark Jr. and my good pal John Mayer onboard this run. Of course, the fans that have followed the band through its entire career, or most of it, were really excited to see Bill and Mick onstage. Bill and I stayed in touch through the years after he left, and so, on a personal level, it was wonderful for me. Mick is also much loved by the fans for his time with the band. He brought a lot to the table in those years and brought it with him to the stage for these shows. It was tough to only have them play a song or two, but we also wanted to accommodate the other guest artists – and, of course, to play as the core band we have now. Eric was a highlight for me as I played with him for two-and-a-half years. He (Eric Clapton) killed it on “Champagne and Reefer.” Mick doing “Midnight Rambler” made for a cool jam. Since I have been working with John Mayer over the past two years, he was my suggestion – and I’m so glad he could make it.
..."

"made a cool jam"... This says a lot...


MT, dangerous for conservative Chuck Leavell's controlled planet?

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vertigojoe

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MarkSchneider
Chuck Leavell's factor



(Chuck Leavell's as a musical manager)

[www.rollingstone.com]
By Patrick Doyle November 26, 2012

To prepare for the Stones' blistering 23-song set in London, Leavell acted as musical director during the Paris rehearsals, sifting through their rich 400-plus song catalog while fielding suggestions from Jagger and the rest of the band. "I can't remember the last time Charlie Watts or Ronnie Wood have come up and offered [set list] suggestions," he says. "Mick and I talked about it on several occasions, really, in the early stages of the rehearsals, and I made up varied lists. I make up a list every day of what I think the band should be rehearsing, and then I also had a separate list that is songs that we have yet to try to play that I think may have merit. We have tried to look very hard at all of the various eras of the band's career and tried as best as possible to represent those eras. Fifty years is a long time, man!"
...
For fans heading to future shows, looking at last night's set list may provide some spoilers. "The bottom line is that, only having a limited number of shows, obviously we're not gonna go crazy with swapping around songs in the set list," says Leavell. "In other words, we don't want to go too too deep at this juncture."...


On RELIX type "chuck leavell" or
[www.relix.com]
Here is an excerpt regarding guests and MT
Chuck Leavell Talks Stones Tour
by Mike Greenhaus on April 10, 2013
"...
Guest Stars
It’s been great to have [former Stones] Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor, and guests like Mary J. Blige, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Florence Welch, Gary Clark Jr. and my good pal John Mayer onboard this run. Of course, the fans that have followed the band through its entire career, or most of it, were really excited to see Bill and Mick onstage. Bill and I stayed in touch through the years after he left, and so, on a personal level, it was wonderful for me. Mick is also much loved by the fans for his time with the band. He brought a lot to the table in those years and brought it with him to the stage for these shows. It was tough to only have them play a song or two, but we also wanted to accommodate the other guest artists – and, of course, to play as the core band we have now. Eric was a highlight for me as I played with him for two-and-a-half years. He (Eric Clapton) killed it on “Champagne and Reefer.” Mick doing “Midnight Rambler” made for a cool jam. Since I have been working with John Mayer over the past two years, he was my suggestion – and I’m so glad he could make it.
..."

"made a cool jam"... This says a lot...


MT, dangerous for conservative Chuck Leavell's controlled planet?

WHO PUT HIM IN CHARGE?!?

Quote
treaclefingers

Quote
vertigojoe

Quote
MarkSchneider
Chuck Leavell's factor



(Chuck Leavell's as a musical manager)

[www.rollingstone.com]
By Patrick Doyle November 26, 2012

To prepare for the Stones' blistering 23-song set in London, Leavell acted as musical director during the Paris rehearsals, sifting through their rich 400-plus song catalog while fielding suggestions from Jagger and the rest of the band. "I can't remember the last time Charlie Watts or Ronnie Wood have come up and offered [set list] suggestions," he says. "Mick and I talked about it on several occasions, really, in the early stages of the rehearsals, and I made up varied lists. I make up a list every day of what I think the band should be rehearsing, and then I also had a separate list that is songs that we have yet to try to play that I think may have merit. We have tried to look very hard at all of the various eras of the band's career and tried as best as possible to represent those eras. Fifty years is a long time, man!"
...
For fans heading to future shows, looking at last night's set list may provide some spoilers. "The bottom line is that, only having a limited number of shows, obviously we're not gonna go crazy with swapping around songs in the set list," says Leavell. "In other words, we don't want to go too too deep at this juncture."...


On RELIX type "chuck leavell" or
[www.relix.com]
Here is an excerpt regarding guests and MT
Chuck Leavell Talks Stones Tour
by Mike Greenhaus on April 10, 2013
"...
Guest Stars
It’s been great to have [former Stones] Bill Wyman and Mick Taylor, and guests like Mary J. Blige, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Florence Welch, Gary Clark Jr. and my good pal John Mayer onboard this run. Of course, the fans that have followed the band through its entire career, or most of it, were really excited to see Bill and Mick onstage. Bill and I stayed in touch through the years after he left, and so, on a personal level, it was wonderful for me. Mick is also much loved by the fans for his time with the band. He brought a lot to the table in those years and brought it with him to the stage for these shows. It was tough to only have them play a song or two, but we also wanted to accommodate the other guest artists – and, of course, to play as the core band we have now. Eric was a highlight for me as I played with him for two-and-a-half years. He (Eric Clapton) killed it on “Champagne and Reefer.” Mick doing “Midnight Rambler” made for a cool jam. Since I have been working with John Mayer over the past two years, he was my suggestion – and I’m so glad he could make it.
..."

"made a cool jam"... This says a lot...


MT, dangerous for conservative Chuck Leavell's controlled planet?

WHO PUT HIM IN CHARGE?!?

Mick Jagger. He came highly referred by Ian Stewart.

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Stoneburst

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DoomandGloom
Mick sees him as a loose cannon on stage ready to toss little bits of sabotage into the show in quiet response to his treatment. Witness the insane electric Satisfaction or Shanghai's feedback solo. They are a little afraid of what he might do, justified or not this is what I see. If the universe has any justice The Stones will need Taylor at some point of this tour and he'll have his night. In the end I don't feel sad for Taylor as I don't think he's a very nice guy or has done all he can to play the game and get more stage time but the music is suffering without him, how he sits during ADTL and plays on Slipping Away melodrama trash is an historic outrage.

See also the LA Knocking: Ronnie and Keith have massive grins on their faces during Taylor's solo, while Jagger frantically tries everything to make him stop playing. This is what I find most depressing about Jagger and the whole situation. All the other guys on that stage look to me like old friends playing music together and having fun - and that's the way it should be. Jagger is a businessman onstage and off it.

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DoomandGloom
When MJ asked me to do something I did it without question, always. He has earned that respect and loyalty by producing the greatest rock music. I love Taylor but I don't think he shows that respect and that's maybe the issue.

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Dreamer
Would that guy me one Mick J. ? Surprise, surprise!

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andrewt
Ah, the good old days. I was at this show and can tell you the crowd went ballistic for this. Looks like MJ was quite pleased with it too at the end.

[video]

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Chacal

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andrewt
Ah, the good old days. I was at this show and can tell you the crowd went ballistic for this. Looks like MJ was quite pleased with it too at the end.

[video]

Were you at the second Staples Center (20 May 2013) gig as well ?
The applause after CYHMK nearly blew the roof off.

In both cases it was clearly more than '200 to 500 max at each show' (estimate from Dreamer, see above) that had been waiting for a loooong time to hear a song from the 'El Dorado era' performed properly.