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tatters


The shame of it is that even many black people don't seem to have much interst in the "real deal" anymore. I went to a Funk Brothers concert last year and saw very few blacks in the audience. I noticed the same thing thirty years ago when I'd go see Muddy Waters. I hate to make generalizations like this, but I find that most blacks don't embrace, and are in fact a little embarrassed by, their cultural past. Even older blacks don't have the same kind of nostalgia older whites have for old-school soul music.

As for Stones music and black music sinking at the same time, I would say that rock music AND soul music BOTH peaked in the early 70s.

Robert Plant (onstage): We're gonna do an old blues number. Do you guys know the blues?
tatters (in the third row): I know what you STOLE.

why all the stereotyping? why do all blacks have to embrace black music etc....
Too much hand-wringing.

seems like you're trying to put people in boxes instead of allowing them free choice.

i go back to my original post:
Music is Music and fans are fans...let's leave it at that. No reason to over-think it.
Not sure where you live but when I go outside, I see Americans.
When I go to Rolling Stones concerts I see Rolling Stones fans.


IORR............but I like it!

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sweet neo con

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tatters

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sweet neo con
Music is Music and fans are fans...let's leave it at that. No reason to over-think it.
Not sure where you live but when I go outside, I see Americans.
When I go to Rolling Stones concerts I see Rolling Stones fans.

A thinking person might ask themselves why all American Rolling Stones fans look the same when all Americans do NOT look the same.

A thinking person might not make race a factor.

If you're just making an observation....fine...but when you go to a Blues club, Jazz Club, Barbershop Quartet,
Irish Dancing show, Polish Polka-fest etc.... do you ask why it doesn't look exactly like the American population?

People prefer different entertainment for different reasons.

At an Irish Dancing show, no, it wouldn't cross my mind that there were no black people there. In fact, if I DID see a black person, I would think "That's odd. He likes THIS crap?", but at a blues or jazz club, yeah, I DO notice what the audience looks like and it BOTHERS me if it's all white (or all black). I like to see the races mix and have a good time listening to great music together.

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tatters

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sweet neo con

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tatters

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sweet neo con
Music is Music and fans are fans...let's leave it at that. No reason to over-think it.
Not sure where you live but when I go outside, I see Americans.
When I go to Rolling Stones concerts I see Rolling Stones fans.

A thinking person might ask themselves why all American Rolling Stones fans look the same when all Americans do NOT look the same.

A thinking person might not make race a factor.

If you're just making an observation....fine...but when you go to a Blues club, Jazz Club, Barbershop Quartet,
Irish Dancing show, Polish Polka-fest etc.... do you ask why it doesn't look exactly like the American population?

People prefer different entertainment for different reasons.

At an Irish Dancing show, no, it wouldn't cross my mind that there were no black people there. In fact, if I DID see a black person, I would think "That's odd. He likes THIS crap?", but at a blues or jazz club, yeah, I DO notice what the audience looks like and it BOTHERS me if it's all white (or all black). I like to see the races mix and have a good time listening to great music together.

you've confirmed....stereotyping.


IORR............but I like it!

Your Stones-anthropology is interesting Baboon bro!

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sweet neo con
why do all blacks have to embrace black music

The problem, as I see it, is that they only embrace CURRENT black music, whatever is hot RIGHT NOW. If some white person was only into NEW rock music, and paid no attention at all to 60s and 70s rock (let alone "roots" music like country and folk), wouldn't you say they were missing out on some great music? Don't you think it's important for people to know where the music of today comes from? And that to explore those earier styles is an essential part of a good musical education?

Been to quite a few shows over the years,
but the only African American I can remember
was a guy waiting in line with me in L.A.
for the release of Voodoo Lounge (July 12th, 1994).
He was a real expert and wanted to see some shows.

On a Greyhound trip I sat next to another guy
who saw them in Pittsburgh 1989.

So I at least met two!

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tatters

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sweet neo con
why do all blacks have to embrace black music

The problem, as I see it, is that they only embrace CURRENT black music, whatever is hot RIGHT NOW. If some white person was only into NEW rock music, and paid no attention at all to 60s and 70s rock (let alone "roots" music like country and folk), wouldn't you say they were missing out on some great music? Don't you think it's important for people to know where the music of today comes from? And that to explore those earier styles is an essential part of a good musical education?

i would say it's their own free choice to listen to whatever they want...and not
sure why they need to be told what is right for them.

(glad we're keeping this debate friendly)


IORR............but I like it!

this is a whole can of worms. Are gay people under-represented at Stones shows for example. Why are there no young people (and bringing your kids doesn't count!). In terms of black people, I have no idea why they may or may not go to Stones concerts - but black people are also gay and straight, young and old so its probably of no merit to narrow the focus and ask these questions, tho I'm sure pollsters do for electoral purposes!

Edit: I suppose the stones music has "black" origins, and that validates the question. Not sure you will get to any satisfactory answer tho.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-21 18:12 by letitloose.

A few years ago I got on the train to go to a Stones concert, on the station I saw two black man and a chinese, but I do not know if they were going to the concert as well. I must admit that I have never seen an Inuit person at a Stones show.

Just chill and enjoy the music....Rock and Jazz are essentially American forms of music blending African and European traditions...folk,rock,blues,classical...whatever the genre or era...great music is great music...and crap is crap..

Nice photos, Gagi

ihave a few afro-american friends who love the stones one especially is a serious collector of stones boots and goes to basically every concert in his city and has travelled thousands of miles to catch some shows.

Most of the time R&R black people (yes! they do exist!) just dont have the money...for those expensive tics.)they spend the money on Rocking and rolling if you know what i mean..i know a lot of poor white folks whom dont go either anymore so to speak...in 69 they gave a show (read ance with the devil S Booth) were a big part of the crowd was black....so paint it black...and if we really have to talk or think this way...oh my...the show in india...Brasil...i had some black girl friends they loved the stones....im golden brown i luv the stones...i just do not think that way so if yo my friend ...im not thinkin ahh you white....hmm i saw coulored people at shows....you....i give you another one...black people dont buy bootlegs(except me) its true....so true...anyway i sold my boots...why? R&R reasons...this is kind of stupid ...its like i dont see enough American natives at the shows...ha ha remember that black dude in CSB film?Okay i didnt see many blacks at the germany shows i went to...but one(me) just do not think of it....one is havin a hell of a time....and they were there in frankfurt!......and you should be glad...cause black people really want to party and get to the front rows like in Italy and Brasil..and you with your expensive front row tickets may not like that at all...lots of black artist just love the stones like B womack finaaly they got some money!....my family is black lots of my friends are.....they all know tha stanes mostly they like ...Dont look back...Angie...Miss you....Hot stuff....Shine a light...i know some who like ...rain fall down!! How about that? When you really wanna understand this...think of jazz...blues...gospel...R_R....Hard rock )j Hendrix'....not many blacks went to see Hendrix remember!Ahh Rooster thinks this is just a waste of time...cheers everybody!



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2009-11-21 20:36 by rooster.

They might play a free concert in Ghana on the beach ya know!

I loved the Stones When i Was 11 years old...till now and yeah way back than ...i did feel good to see Preston join them! And yeah..i did think of altamont...you do think that way when 12 years old....and iwanna say i just love the tune Some Girls!!!Satisfaction is mentioned in some Hip hop songs

Yeah Doctor Rooster - Stones's 1975 tour was something special with the addition of Billy Preston. Also fun was hearing some of his hits played.

LMFAO, tatters started this thread 4 years ago, and after his "bump" everybody goes on as if it started today. Way cool tatters, amazing.

-------------------
Keep On Rolling

And believe me I know....you do see black or brown folks at the Stones shows...me i didnt see them at any other white rock concerts....went some times to Bob Dylan..didnt see any..the music...was hip than it became popular afterward...that how it goes....i thin k afro americans dont speak african....did you know ´´Undercover´´ is a dark and black album...even the african band Xalam is playing on it annd in st maarten we have the rollin tones man!

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Koen
It looks like with hiphop finally a music form has been formed that has not much crossover appeal.

- Koen.

under which rock you came from??

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letitloose
I suppose the stones music has "black" origins, and that validates the question.

Right. I said that in my original post. I once read a review of a Pink Floy show I went to and the writer said something like "Pink Floyd may be enormously popular, but that popularity is entirely confined to a white audience. Of the 54,000 people in attendance, I did not spot a single African-American", and I thought, "What a peculiar observation. Why even bother to mention such a thing? OF COURSE there were no black people there! It was a Pink Floyd concert!" But I got to thinking that there are also no black people at Stones concerts, and I have never really been able to understand why a band as "black" as the Rolling Stones cannot connect with that particular segment of the music-buying and concert-going market.

in the past they did connect....satisfaction man

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Rolling Hansie
LMFAO, tatters started this thread 4 years ago, and after his "bump" everybody goes on as if it started today. Way cool tatters, amazing.

I bumped it because earlier today someone posted a "mick's racist lyrics" thread, which has since been removed, and I thought the person who posted that thread might find this thread interesting.

So you yourself dont really care ...great news...life is to short for this...Rollin Stones made history when they had the first no 1 blues song in england

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rooster
So you yourself dont really care ...great news...life is to short for this...Rollin Stones made history when they had the first no 1 blues song in england

I cared enough to start the thread, and to remember it, and go and search for it, four years later.

I'm colored (brown) and do love the Stones. In my younger years people didn't understand me why I listened to that kind of music. It were high times of New Jack Swing, Vanilla Ice, Michael Jackson, HipHop, MC Hammer etc etc. But I wasn't into that. I was listening to Rewind, More Hot Rocks, Tattoo You in that time. People weren't understanding in that time. I was mocked.


But the last few years more people started to listen and 'understand' why I enjoyed their music. The Funk and Soul IS in the music. Come on... listen to Hot Stuff, Miss You, Fingerprint File... ;-)

Leon Matthews loves rock n roll, but that cat is beyond color.

This thread is full of shit. The original observation by the OP is an interesting point, but the minute race and music comes up, intelligent discussion goes out the window.

tatters, you say you like to see a diversity of people mixing it up at shows.

Do you ever go to hip hop shows? If you're white and you go to a show in, say, DC where I lived for a dozen years (and I don't mean a show at a big place, of a rap group that's been commercially successful and crossed over into the mainstream, I mean an upcoming, underground, or local group, rapper, dj) you will find yourself in a teeny minority. I've been to these shows -- and even tho up here in Maine now (96% white population) people like to say "hip hop has no race" often it does. And the race is black. or more to the point: the culture is black. That's changing certainly worldwide. And up here in New England there are white MCs, incidentally mostly poor, with mad skilz And on the west coast I've been to impressive Latin and Asian hip hop shows. But in many places the realest, newest, hottest, most innovative, emergent, generative and interesting hip hop is black. And if you're white and you're in the crowd at a show like this, most likely you will not understand everything that's going on culturally, and you'll not experience the ubiquitous comfort of invisible privilege, of being white, that most of us experience without even realizing every day in America.

If you go to a local indy/folky/acoustic show (most places in the US) you're likely to be in a white-majority crowd. Why are there so few black people there? How about: Don't dig the music. Don't dig the scene. Don't know anyone. Don't particularly wanna. Not relevant. Not exciting. Speaking to life experiences that don't resonate or feel particularly "real." No reason black people should be there if they don't want to be. The indy kids would love there to be more black or brown people at their shows. But usually they're disappointed. Stones shows...I'd guess most Stones fans don't usually shed a tear about not seeing more black and brown faces around them. Is that bad? I don't know. Is it bad that the indy kids want to see more? I don't know. Objectifying anyone and "wanting them at my show" skirts very closely to being patronizing, dangerously close to objectifying black people and wanting them among us, coming right up to narcissistically feeling good about being "diverse." Is that as bad as actively not wanting black people at a show? No. Not wanting any group to be around is worse than actively wanting people around even if it is to make us feel good about ourselves. Do people at Stones shows not want there to be more black people? I wouldn't guess so. Do black people wish they could come to Stones shows, but don't because it doesn't feel inclusive? Probably not likely. There are other factors that would keep throngs of black people from wanting to attend a Stones show, that trump the other possibilities. Such as, not liking the Stones all that much. Not preferring the music. Incidentally, I'm sure you know, in DC, Detroit, Chicago, Atlanta, NYC, in fact every part of the country there are members of ot only black middle class but a black aristocracy who could afford a Stones show if they felt like it. But the question may more be about relevance and potential for high enjoyment factor -- at any price, but especially at Stones tix prices. I wouldn't pay those prices myself, unless the Stones surprised us and played small venues like Dylan did in 2000 (they won't, I know).

Last thing: as far as black people should study up on their roots...you really meant to say that? Well, if so, let's start with hip hop. The best most intelligent hip hop, the art of MCing and DJing (as you may know - not to mention the 2 other elements of hip hop, breakdancing and graffiti), are steeped in tradition and history. I'm not talking about mainstream shit on the radio -- which is exactly as bad as white people mainstream music shit on the radio -- but the good stuff: it often comes into being with recognition and even reverence for those who came before. The best hip hop is part of a 35-year-old community growing out of South Bronx's Afrikka Bambata and Zulu Nation, crossing over to Harlem and Sugar Hill, spreading through every nook and interstices of America, speaking to and from the heart of African Americans, creating a musical cultural web connecting generations of fans and MCs. This lineage and connection to history is mentioned overtly in lyrics, with talented MCs directly quoting others or merely picking up someone else's cadence, rhyme patterns, lyrical themes, metaphors as a nod and thank-you to them. As well as DJs sampling everyone from Jesse Jackson calling for "Nation Time!" at Wattstax to Coltrane and Sun House riffs. In rap music are history lessons, musical and otherwise.

For people to write off rap or hip hop because of what they hear in the mainstream is a shame. In my opinion Keith never developed an ear for it because it's so wordy--it's cerebral, complex, and poetic in a way he's not--and the music is not guitary, the creativity in the music comes from mixing, sampling, and writing beats, hence little points of reference for Keith. Really good rap songs are multi-layered, complicated, and easy written off. It takes time, concentration, dedication by people who haven't grown up around it to "hear" it, and to listen to it many many times, being ok with not understanding all the words, the meaning, the images, the implications, the cultural references, raw look at what life is like without the buffer of invisible white privilege. If you're young enough, or lucky enough to grow up in a really integrated community, or if you have a "translator" or "interpreter" to help you through, or a bunch of time and an open mind, a white person may get hip hop.

So...why would or should black people like the Stones? as someone already said - what about young people of any race? do they flock to Stones' shows? No -- they're, well...they're just not that good unless collecting Stones tkt stubs year after year is your thing. And, to young people, too many old people go to Stones shows. I wonder whether people aged 50 now have wanted - when they were 18, 19, 20, up to 25 - to have beeb surrounded by sagging bellies and grizzled beards and rhuemy-eyed droopy tank topped people who rarely get out and screaming guzzling beer trying to relive their glory days? I know I wouldn't have wanted to be around that as a kid.

So why would black people who weren't huge Stones fans Back In The Day want that either? What is it that resonates with Stones fans here about the Rolling Stones? what does it speak to that keeps us talking about them, listening to them, looking at photos? why do they fascinate us? Speaking for myself, it's partly associated with a type of rebellion that would be (is) experienced by someone who is inside the dominant white class and who--from the inside, with all privilege at my disposal--stubbornly rejects many of its limitations, rules, and hierarchies, refuses to kow-tow completely to the powers that be, and the status quo. My perspective is definitely as a white person of privilege. I feel like I'm badder than I am when I listen to the Stones--that the Stones and me, we're outlaws, around many lame-ass nonquestioning conformists. I am poking fun at myself but it's also true. Second, as much as a I love complex polyrhythyms of heavily African-influenced music, I also love the Stones' rhythms which -- sorry -- are actually quite white. They're obvious and driving and relentless and white-mannishly aggressive. I LOVE that flavor. It can be sexy, but it's not very "black," at the end of the day (Sympathy and a few others are exceptions). I get my sexy black rhythms elsewhere. And I imagine some of the above might hold true for black people too. Dunno.