Quote
Nellcote1971

Was able to spin a copy from the first 71-06 box. It's not the flat transfer

Maybe it's better to edit your above list then to avoid obsolete infos.

Thanks, done.

Couldn't have been the Flat transfer in 06...not without time travel

Interesting that Miles Showell didn't choose the flat transfers for all the albums in the 71-16 Abbey Road box...just for "most of them".

He evidently had quite a few sources to choose from for each album and went with the one he thought would work best for each individual cut.

edited to add.

He certainly manged to achieve a much more natural and musical dynamic range than is evident on any other digital era vinyl remasters.
The only drawback with the boxed set for me is that some do suffer with some low frequency "vinyl roar", audible between tracks...but I think that's pressing related...

Sad also that the only one in the box not fully remastered was Blue & Lonesome...which could have been improved considerably with the same Miles Showell treatment.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-18 12:26 by Spud.

Quote
Spud
Couldn't have been the Flat transfer in 06...not without time travel

Box I was referring to is from 2010 but yeah, kinda makes sense that they put the 2010 remaster in there...

Got my flat transfer SHM-CD - great. But needs to be played real loud. In fact it's pretty much the only CD I have to turn up to match the volume of the LP for comparison purposes.

The volume levels are an interesting thing.

Different records sound "right" at different levels...and that's always a bit of a factor when comparing any recordings.

You still liking some of the things that Electrola cut does ?

Yes exactly. Exile is one of those records that should be played loud (whatever that means) anyway. I still have to crank up the SHM-CD even a bit more to make it sound good. I think it's nice to have but not essential if you have Artisan pressings...

I like the Electrola a lot actually. It's my favourite non-Artisan pressing (on par with the original Japanese). It has a nice warmth to it and a more traditional "album atmosphere" whereas the Artisans put you straight into that Nellcote basement... Grateful for that suggestion, Spud.

Yep, that's exactly how I hear the Electrola too.

Nice to find someone on the same page with that.

It's a great alternative listen for those occasions when you're a bit too weary and sleepy to be thrown down the steps into that Nellcote cellar !



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-19 15:06 by Spud.

It's Friday, time to fool around.
I took several CDs and found on my reserve HDD a copy of a vinyl rip EOMS (Artisan pressing) made by PBTHAL. I choose the track - Rip This Join and made samples.
The following CDs were used:
1. Exile On Main Str. CDCBS 450196 2 (Mastered by Greg Calbi)
2. Made In The Shade CDCBS 450201 2 (Mastered by Ted Jansen)
3. Exile On Main Str. Virgin Collector's Edition 39524-2 (Mastered by Bob Ludwig)
4. Exile On Main Str. Universal Music from Japanese Deluxe UICY-1478/9 (Mastered by Stephen Marcussen)
5. Exile On Main Str. Flat transfer from original master tape, Japanese SHM-CD platinum UICY-40001.
6. Exile On Main Str. Vinyl rip by PBTHAL, Artisan pressing.
As usual, a dice and the numbers were shuffled. I.e., the number of the sample does not correspond to the list above. Enjoy and express yourself

Sample 021
[www.dropbox.com]
Sample 022
[www.dropbox.com]
Sample 023
[www.dropbox.com]
Sample 024
[www.dropbox.com]
Sample 025
[www.dropbox.com]
Sample 026
[www.dropbox.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-19 15:28 by ironbelly.

Sorry, ironbelly. Appreciate those uploads, just didn't have proper time to listen to them (and didn't wanna make a fool of myself AGAIN).

Would be cool of you could post the solution though!

Quote
Nellcote1971
Sorry, ironbelly. Appreciate those uploads, just didn't have proper time to listen to them (and didn't wanna make a fool of myself AGAIN).

Would be cool of you could post the solution though!

No problem. Here we go
Sample 021 - Exile On Main Str. Flat transfer from original master tape, Japanese SHM-CD platinum UICY-40001.
Sample 022 - Exile On Main Str. Universal Music from Japanese Deluxe UICY-1478/9 (Mastered by Stephen Marcussen)
Sample 023 - Exile On Main Str. Vinyl rip by PBTHAL, Artisan pressing.
Sample 024 - Exile On Main Str. Virgin Collector's Edition 39524-2 (Mastered by Bob Ludwig)
Sample 025 - Exile On Main Str. CDCBS 450196 2 (Mastered by Greg Calbi)
Sample 026 - Made In The Shade CDCBS 450201 2 (Mastered by Ted Jansen)

Meanwhile my Exile quest continues...

Got hold of a 1979 Japanese pressing - praised by many - and didn't really like it (at least not for that kind of money). It's a similar take as the Electrola and I like that a lot more actually.

Finally got a clean UK Artisan (1/1/1/2) and have to say that it beats all the other Artisans I have (although all of them are brilliant).

My UK Artisan was an original I bought new ...still the best I've heard ..

...but I love the Electrola for a bit of slightly more cerebral listening, with a bit less dancin'

Yeah, the Electrola is fantastic! Found it interesting that the UK 79 EMI is so bad, I thought they are probably the same mastering.

The UK Artisan is otherwordly... just so good. What are the matrix numbers on yours, Spud?
I found that 1/2 matrices are basically the same, whereas my one D3 side is compressed af.

Does anyone have any inside into the Artisan mastering process? Did Andy Johns master the UK 1/2 matrices and took them to the UK personally (as someone in the Hoffman forum suggested etc.)

Not exactly off the subject but the Virgin MADE IN THE SHADE songs strangely have a little more life (or oomph) to them than the Virgin albums do, especially Brown Sugar, Tumbling Dice and Doo Doo Doo Doo.

Think they were slightly EQed differently than the album masters were or... it's a tad bit hotter?

Quote
Spud
Wouldn't have a clue to be honest.
I can't even remember when I bought the German Electrola pressing but early 80s would be about right I think.

[How do you feel about those red label German Teldec pressings of the old Decca stuff ? ]

I have an excellent sounding German red label Teldec Let It Bleed which is my vinyl go to copy. US Bell Sounds pressings were what I was used to for decades, but that Teldec Bleed is superb. On the digital side The SACD's of the old catalogue and in particular Let It Bleed also sound fantastic.

As it relates to the German Electrola pressing in question, I think it lacks the vibrancy of US or UK early Artisans. Best digital sounding Exile in my collection is the Japanese SHM-SACD UIGY-9081. It rivals the best vinyl imo. Excellent transfer!

Never heard a UK Artisan and I’ve heard they sound especially good, but I’m not sure how they could be better than a US Artisan. I have a first press Monarch and first and second presses from other US cutting houses (Specialty and/or Presswell from memory) and they all sound sorta the same to me. Is the UK Artisan a unique mastering?

Quote
Nellcote1971
Yeah, the Electrola is fantastic! Found it interesting that the UK 79 EMI is so bad, I thought they are probably the same mastering.

The UK Artisan is otherwordly... just so good. What are the matrix numbers on yours, Spud?
I found that 1/2 matrices are basically the same, whereas my one D3 side is compressed af.

Does anyone have any inside into the Artisan mastering process? Did Andy Johns master the UK 1/2 matrices and took them to the UK personally (as someone in the Hoffman forum suggested etc.)

I find the UK EMI era pressings on the whole to be a bit disappointing.

They don't sound overtly bad or nasty but they lack immediacy . They all kind of sound a bit like they're pressed with worn out stampers.

I'll have to come back to you re the Artisan matrix numbers...I've never been that interested in the minutiae . I just listen to 'em

Edited to ad.

I suspect I may actually have a US copy . The etchings include those 16944 & 16945 codes in addition to the catalogue numbers & Artisan logo on all 4 sides.

I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will enlighten me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-30 11:02 by Spud.

Yeah that's the brilliant US Monarch pressing.

Exile is the only record I really dig into. Although it's fairly "easy" as all Artisan pressings are so good I somehow can't stop diggin' deeper and deeper...

Quote
joshbg2k
Never heard a UK Artisan and I’ve heard they sound especially good, but I’m not sure how they could be better than a US Artisan. I have a first press Monarch and first and second presses from other US cutting houses (Specialty and/or Presswell from memory) and they all sound sorta the same to me. Is the UK Artisan a unique mastering?

My assuption is they are all the same mastering. So it's more a question of pressing quality, vinyl condition etc.
I love the MO pressing (my PR and RI are very similar though), the UK sounds maybe just a bit hotter but that's completely subjective...

Some suggest that the UK are "first" pressings as they don't have any numbers or letters added in the matrix whereas all others have that. Don't know if that matters tbh.

Quote
GasLightStreet
Not exactly off the subject but the Virgin MADE IN THE SHADE songs strangely have a little more life (or oomph) to them than the Virgin albums do, especially Brown Sugar, Tumbling Dice and Doo Doo Doo Doo.

Think they were slightly EQed differently than the album masters were or... it's a tad bit hotter?

Correct. Made In The Shade 2005 is new tape transfer and mastering. The tracks on that compilation are not identical to the tracks from the albums that were issued in 1994. They are louder, more compressed and EQ-zed differently. As a matter of fact, there is also slight difference in playback speed. This is new product. Although, the details of mastering process and source tapes is unclear. The only copyright information for EU digipak edition is this

PS. Still like old CBS version better.

Quote
Nellcote1971
Yeah that's the brilliant US Monarch pressing.

Exile is the only record I really dig into. Although it's fairly "easy" as all Artisan pressings are so good I somehow can't stop diggin' deeper and deeper...

Thanks for that . Very kind.

That's something I've learnt today then.

To be honest I'd always presumed it likely to be a UK variant simply because I bought it in a Boots Chemists here in the UK when it came out.


[Bloody hell ...those were the days...when Boots sold records !

At least we have HMV back on the high street...even if most of the new and reissued LPs they sell sound rather less than wonderful ! ]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-30 13:59 by Spud.

Quote
Nellcote1971
My assuption is they are all the same mastering. So it's more a question of pressing quality, vinyl condition etc.
I love the MO pressing (my PR and RI are very similar though), the UK sounds maybe just a bit hotter but that's completely subjective...

Some suggest that the UK are "first" pressings as they don't have any numbers or letters added in the matrix whereas all others have that. Don't know if that matters tbh.

This makes some sense. I’ve seen where people claim they can hear the difference between discs pressed at the beginning and end of a stampers lifecycle. I’ve never done one of those tests myself but it makes sense. Someone should make a video with short clips of various albums like this. It would be interesting to hear it myself.

In general I guess I would recommend to folks to get anything with an Artisan stamp on it and they won’t be disappointed. I also love my MO for its significance but honestly I have a pristine second pressing PR 4-sided Artisan that probably gets more play.

With a decent turntable and system you certainly can hear the difference between new and well worn stampers...but with 50 & 60 year old records this is just one of many factors which will affect the sound.

Some the best sounding old records are those which were looked after and kept clean, but played on primitive old record players with very crude styli.
Those styli never got anywhere near the part of the groove wall tracked by a quality stylus profile and the record is virtually virgin vinyl

Some of the worst sounding are those "cleaned" by second hand record dealers ...who have succeeded only in pushing all the muck down into the grooves...just where you don't want it !

In the absence of professional record cleaning machines, I'm a great believer in letting the stylus clean the record and then keeping the stylus clean.

I've had a couple of treasured old albums professionally cleaned...but it's not cheap .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-01-30 15:44 by Spud.

Quote
Spud
With a decent turntable k and system you certainly can hear the difference between new and well worn stampers...but with 50 & 60 year old records this is just one o many factors which will affect the sound.

Some the best sounding old records are those which were looked after and kept clean, but played on primitive old record players with very crude styli.
Those styli never got anywhere era the part o the groove tracked by a quality stylus profile and record is virtually virgin vinyl

In digital world it is much easy. You can always compare amplitude-frequency charts form CDs using audio analysis software. For example, Rocks Off, the title song from EOMS, from different CDs.

As you see, in terms of loudness and tonality the closest are old CBS CD from 1986 and flat transfer from 2011. However, it is a bit hard to read the charts this way. So I made differential chart using flat transfer as a base line. I.e., this is what is left after flat transfer is subtracted from mastered/remastered track. It shows what was added during mastering process. The horizontal line on zero level is flat transfer, the other lines - the additions to the sound due to different mastering.

That 'moss' in differential chart is due to the fact flat transfer is running a bit slower compared to other discs (tracks from different discs are not in sync) and all frequencies are a bit shifted. Actually, the slower playback for flat transfer was already discussed. Anyway, again, CBS CD is the closest one to the flat transfer in terms of loudness, but it obviously lacks bass and has more hiss. Please also note that Virgin CD shows signs of HF filtering above 10 kHz and a dip around 100 Hz for brickwalled and loud UM mastering. Guess the latter was done to save your ears .

Digital recording technology is now potentially quite wonderful...


..hampered only by poor decisions made in it's processes and by engineers no longer appearing prepared to trust their ears.

OK, here is another deviation.
Japanese Virgin CDs (made by Toshiba)
- [VJCP-25112] (1994, regular edition with green OBI),
- [VJCP-18012] (1998, special price edition for Bridges To Babylon Tour),
- [VJCP-68032] (1999, mini-vinyl replica, the 25th Anniversary of Virgin Records),
- [TOCP-66452] (2005, mini-vinyl replica, A Bigger Bang Tour special box),
- [TOCP-66542] (2006, A bigger Bang Tour in Japan special edition in 12" sleeve) contain Virgin remaster but... are running a notch slower compared to EU versions (made in The Netherlands by EMI/Uden or by EMI UK). The difference is negligible but is detectable by audio software (approximately 0.2 milliseconds per 1 minute of play time, or 9 samples per minute). This clocking issue might be with the copy of the digital master that was supplied to Japan. All CDs mentioned above are digital clones other than null samples. And all are not digitally identical to EU discs.

Live with it .

Spud, do you know if the Sticky Electrola is as good as the Exile? Have a chance to get one quite "cheap" but didn't like any later Sticky issues so far...

After reading through some of the comments here I now have one thing explained to me that I have always wondered.

I have MFSL Original Master albums of both Sticky Fingers and Some Girls.

I always wondered why there was no release of Exile.

Mobile Fidelity half speed masters...

Now there's topic in itself.

Wonderfully pressed records, dead quiet top notch RCA vinyl. beautiful sweet top end...

...but half the time they flush the baby out with the bathwater by engineering all the Rock N Roll out of it.

If you take the MFSL Sticky Fingers for example, there's too much of a smile in the EQ curve and the record sounds far too polite.

The Rolling Stones aren't supposed to sound "nice " !

They'd have done exactly the same thing with Exile.

Many folks love MF half speed masters, especially amongst HiFi enthusiasts, and that's fine.

If I wanted to impress you with the high frequency resolution of my cartridge or speakers, I might well play you a MF record...

...but I judge a system simply by how much it lets you enjoy the music, and I judge a record pressing in exactly the same way.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2024-02-08 10:31 by Spud.

Downloaded the different versions of RTJ that Ironbelly provided from the different EXILE masterings (above) and cut them together on a timeline as a type of research/comparison.
As they are official tracks, mail me if interested. It just for fun.
Thanks, Ironbelly!