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I don't know where to begin here really--perhaps with, what kind of substance are you looking for?
What kind of dancing do you not consider effeminate? Or black? Or shouldn't older people dance at all? You want him to stand still (well, move around a bit) and just sing? I know this sounds like a silly question, but--why?
surf rock uses a lot of melody on the drums with the toms which is what moon did.
Moon was a big surf music fan. Compare...
With...
But it's very simple actually. As you see in the clip of the surf beat drum lesson below, the 60s surf rock beat was about the "doubling of the snare drum beat".
That was the propelling drive that Keith brought to the way The Who later developed their signature sound. As Roger Daltrey explained in the 2007 Who documentary Amazing Journey, Keith began doubling up the drum beat, that led to Pete doubling up on the guitar, and then John Entwistle did more jazzy things in between--they then developed the sound for which they later became famous. "We played the blues, but we'd put our own stamp on it."
Of course. But anybody says anything critical of the Stones and some peopme will rip that person as having no talent, washed up, etc. Why is it surprising that a musician laughs when asked of has gone to see the words greatest nostalgia show?
Very telling. I've seen/heard that as well. And if you look at it that way, Charlie is not "by far the most accomplished musician in the Stones". Keith is (or at least was) right up there as a rhythm guitarist, innovator and songwriter. In the end, I'd say Mick Taylor is the most accomplished musician in the Stones from a purely musical/technical standpoint (not including songwriting).
Honourary stone Nicky Hopkins was.
G has been busy making up Brian Jones murder confession fables.
You make some very valid points, are injecting a dose of reality here
Brian was great at slide guitar. Bill played marimbas on Don't Be A Stanger, vibraphone on Monkey Man, and organ on Jumping Jack Flash to name a few. He took piano lessons as a child, which Brian did also. Bill should be graded as a great bass player. He played bass, not someone playing lead guitar on a bass. Mick Jagger is a good harp player. I think it's debatable whether he was better than Brian. Charlie appears to be the drummer's drummer, no flash, just cash. Mick Taylor was a very talented all around musician. Keith was a very nimble lead player in his long ago youth. And Ron Wood is pretty good, if you like his style of bass on more than Emotional Rescue, that's subjective.
Ginger Baker was a good drummer. To me he was not better than Bonham or Moon, just different. And he has no business being mentioned in the same breath as Max Roach. And here's why:
[www.youtube.com]
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Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: October 13, 2013 01:56
Good point Koen.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: October 13, 2013 02:05
Quote
rob51
I've never truely been a fan of the effeminet danceing crap. Move around sure! But you ain't a black chick Mr. and especially now in your elderly years, a little less camp and a little more substance would be muchly appreciated.
I don't know where to begin here really--perhaps with, what kind of substance are you looking for?
What kind of dancing do you not consider effeminate? Or black? Or shouldn't older people dance at all? You want him to stand still (well, move around a bit) and just sing? I know this sounds like a silly question, but--why?Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: October 13, 2013 05:59
It's all interesting but I still can't make the bridge from Keith's love of the Beach Boys to the way he actually played.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
keefriffhard4life
()
Date: October 13, 2013 06:24
Quote
24FPS
It's all interesting but I still can't make the bridge from Keith's love of the Beach Boys to the way he actually played.
surf rock uses a lot of melody on the drums with the toms which is what moon did.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
ab
()
Date: October 13, 2013 08:36
Quote
24FPS
It's all interesting but I still can't make the bridge from Keith's love of the Beach Boys to the way he actually played.
Moon was a big surf music fan. Compare...
With...
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 13, 2013 11:31
Quote
24FPS
It's all interesting but I still can't make the bridge from Keith's love of the Beach Boys to the way he actually played.
But it's very simple actually. As you see in the clip of the surf beat drum lesson below, the 60s surf rock beat was about the "doubling of the snare drum beat".
That was the propelling drive that Keith brought to the way The Who later developed their signature sound. As Roger Daltrey explained in the 2007 Who documentary Amazing Journey, Keith began doubling up the drum beat, that led to Pete doubling up on the guitar, and then John Entwistle did more jazzy things in between--they then developed the sound for which they later became famous. "We played the blues, but we'd put our own stamp on it."
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
varv
()
Date: October 13, 2013 15:10
Ginger spoke highly of Brian Jones also.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Rokyfan
()
Date: October 13, 2013 16:39
Quote
rob51
I don't think Ginger Bakers dislike of the Stones as musicians is over the top or even surprising really? He's a true musician afterall and never posed once in all his years at the top. Charlie's also a good player although his style's completely different from Bakers. Still you have to be good to play the way Charlie does while any halfassed guitar player could replace Keith or Woody with nobody having noticed since about the early 80's or so. I still love the band! But let's face it in a career lasting in to it's 5th decade now the Rolling Stones were really only great for 2 of those. The rest of the time they've posed and faked their way through making use of ton's of extra players live and penning ever more disappointing material for their meager studio output.
Jagger can still sound good at times. And I much prefer his 2000+ voice compared to his late 70's to late 90's approach. Still an amazing performer as well although I've never truely been a fan of the effeminet danceing crap. Move around sure! But you ain't a black chick Mr. and especially now in your elderly years, a little less camp and a little more substance would be muchly appreciated.
And what can one say about Mr.Keith Richards these past 30yr's or so? Not a truely classic lick or riff to be heard. And please don't try to pawn off anything he's done in years to the incredible stuff he used to do so seemingly effortlessly. Can't You Hear Me Knockin-1971 I think? Tumblin Dice in 1972. Rain Fall Down and Gloom n Doom sometime in the 2000th. Not even close in my opinion. And if this is what Ginger Baker's commenting on than I agree completely. Keith doesn't play well anymore. And he hasn't writen anything worth hearing for over 30 years. A real sad shame I know. The truth though no matter how hard to take. And the more you think about it the more you realize Ginger Bakers right.
Ron Wood? Pass. And they don't really have a bass player any more do they? Daryll's probably a great player for all I know? But a Stone? I don't think so so you can't really include him. He'll play what's expected of him and do it well I'm sure. He's no Bill Wyman however and Ronnie's just barely acceptable compared to other good players out there. Maybe it's mean of me to still think so? But Woody had the right look and was in fact English back when he was hired. That and he wasn't miles better than Keith, like M.Taylor had always been.
Of course. But anybody says anything critical of the Stones and some peopme will rip that person as having no talent, washed up, etc. Why is it surprising that a musician laughs when asked of has gone to see the words greatest nostalgia show?
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
GasLightStreet
()
Date: October 13, 2013 17:10
He's an old coont that's beyond stuck being old that never evolved and is totally delusional. He's the personification of megolamania.
At least he's clear about another Cream reunion.
At least he's clear about another Cream reunion.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
LieB
()
Date: October 13, 2013 18:53
Quote
Title5Take1
A friend played me a jazz concert album with two brilliant, brilliant jazz guitarists (forget who), who played all these complicated songs with crazy chords and lightening solos. And then to get irreverent they played a simple three-chord R&B tune. And it was so bland, it was really terrible and dorky sounding. Despite all their skill, they could never play a simple "A" chord the WAY Keith can play an "A" chord to save their lives. That's why I love the Rolling Stones.
Very telling. I've seen/heard that as well. And if you look at it that way, Charlie is not "by far the most accomplished musician in the Stones". Keith is (or at least was) right up there as a rhythm guitarist, innovator and songwriter. In the end, I'd say Mick Taylor is the most accomplished musician in the Stones from a purely musical/technical standpoint (not including songwriting).
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
stanstone
()
Date: October 13, 2013 21:35
Hello Everybody
Ginger Baker is a "monster", one of the best drummers -at least IMHO- and a little bit troubled... Also he has a bad memory, check this out:
Sorry for the scans quality, just my second post here...
Greetings from Colombia
SCC
Ginger Baker is a "monster", one of the best drummers -at least IMHO- and a little bit troubled... Also he has a bad memory, check this out:
Sorry for the scans quality, just my second post here...
Greetings from Colombia
SCC
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 14, 2013 00:18
Baker didn't write that Afterword--Giuliano did, with Baker's blessing. The "balmy Sussex night"? Baker doesn't talk like that, and he certainly can't write like that. That literary phrase and all the other bookish, literary phrases in that piece were written by Giuliano. Baker filled him in on the basics and then the author fluffed it up into this writerly-sounding complementary piece that sounds a tad romanticized as well. Just so long as he was payed, Ginger would allow the author to write it as he saw fit--it's not like Baker would ever read the book himself.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 14, 2013 00:47
Giuliano is full of shite.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 01:17 by His Majesty.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2013-10-14 01:17 by His Majesty.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 14, 2013 00:50
Quote
LieB
I'd say Mick Taylor is the most accomplished musician in the Stones from a purely musical/technical standpoint (not including songwriting).
Honourary stone Nicky Hopkins was.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 14, 2013 00:54
Thanks stanstone for giving us that piece! Never seen that. And welcome on board!
And thanks stonehearted for explicating its origin. For a moment I was really amazed what the hell had happened to "good" old Ginger... so romantic, nice-wording, and well-behaving...
- Doxa
And thanks stonehearted for explicating its origin. For a moment I was really amazed what the hell had happened to "good" old Ginger... so romantic, nice-wording, and well-behaving...
- Doxa
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Rockman
()
Date: October 14, 2013 01:07
.... and what ever happened to the second volume of Not Fade Away
that Giuliano and Chris Eborn hinted at ....
ROCKMAN
that Giuliano and Chris Eborn hinted at ....
ROCKMAN
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
His Majesty
()
Date: October 14, 2013 01:18
Quote
Rockman
.... and what ever happened to the second volume of Not Fade Away
that Giuliano and Chris Eborn hinted at ....
G has been busy making up Brian Jones murder confession fables.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: October 14, 2013 02:23
Quote
His MajestyQuote
Rockman
.... and what ever happened to the second volume of Not Fade Away
that Giuliano and Chris Eborn hinted at ....
G has been busy making up Brian Jones murder confession fables.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Spodlumt
()
Date: October 16, 2013 17:02
The fact that Clapton said Jim Gordon and Carl Radle were the best rhythmn section he ever worked speaks volumes about this over-rated psycho's abilities. Who cares what he likes? He has zero class as a human being.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
varv
()
Date: October 16, 2013 19:19
The Rolling Stones Story by Giuliano is available on cassette on Amazon. There's a Ginger Baker interview on it about the pre-fame Stones era that every Stones fan should hear. It's probably under 10 minutes but still worth a listen. As I said,Ginger speaks highly of Brian Jones-Mick,not so much.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
lem motlow
()
Date: October 17, 2013 00:22
ginger baker is a great drummer,one of the best ever.actually i think charlie said baker was THE best ever.
ginger was asked a question and he gave his opinion,so there you have it.its the same way with bill wyman,they just tell you whats on their mind.
there was a time when people did that,now its " my publicist said not to say anything negative,it will hurt my image."
ginger baker bashing jagger isnt nearly as bad as his own songwriting partner doing it...for decades.
ginger was asked a question and he gave his opinion,so there you have it.its the same way with bill wyman,they just tell you whats on their mind.
there was a time when people did that,now its " my publicist said not to say anything negative,it will hurt my image."
ginger baker bashing jagger isnt nearly as bad as his own songwriting partner doing it...for decades.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
triceratops
()
Date: October 17, 2013 00:40
Quote
rob51
I don't think Ginger Bakers dislike of the Stones as musicians is over the top or even surprising really? He's a true musician afterall and never posed once in all his years at the top. Charlie's also a good player although his style's completely different from Bakers. Still you have to be good to play the way Charlie does while any halfassed guitar player could replace Keith or Woody with nobody having noticed since about the early 80's or so. I still love the band! But let's face it in a career lasting in to it's 5th decade now the Rolling Stones were really only great for 2 of those. The rest of the time they've posed and faked their way through making use of ton's of extra players live and penning ever more disappointing material for their meager studio output.
Jagger can still sound good at times. And I much prefer his 2000+ voice compared to his late 70's to late 90's approach. Still an amazing performer as well although I've never truely been a fan of the effeminet danceing crap. Move around sure! But you ain't a black chick Mr. and especially now in your elderly years, a little less camp and a little more substance would be muchly appreciated.
And what can one say about Mr.Keith Richards these past 30yr's or so? Not a truely classic lick or riff to be heard. And please don't try to pawn off anything he's done in years to the incredible stuff he used to do so seemingly effortlessly. Can't You Hear Me Knockin-1971 I think? Tumblin Dice in 1972. Rain Fall Down and Gloom n Doom sometime in the 2000th. Not even close in my opinion. And if this is what Ginger Baker's commenting on than I agree completely. Keith doesn't play well anymore. And he hasn't writen anything worth hearing for over 30 years. A real sad shame I know. The truth though no matter how hard to take. And the more you think about it the more you realize Ginger Bakers right.
Ron Wood? Pass. And they don't really have a bass player any more do they? Daryll's probably a great player for all I know? But a Stone? I don't think so so you can't really include him. He'll play what's expected of him and do it well I'm sure. He's no Bill Wyman however and Ronnie's just barely acceptable compared to other good players out there. Maybe it's mean of me to still think so? But Woody had the right look and was in fact English back when he was hired. That and he wasn't miles better than Keith, like M.Taylor had always been.
You make some very valid points, are injecting a dose of reality here
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Bastion
()
Date: October 17, 2013 01:17
Am I the only Ginger Baker fan here?
Love this so much. I really do think Cream handled the whole reunion thing better than Led Zeppelin.
Love this so much. I really do think Cream handled the whole reunion thing better than Led Zeppelin.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Aquamarine
()
Date: October 17, 2013 01:40
I actually find it hard to imagine a band handling the reunion thing better than Zeppelin (admittedly I was at theirs and not Cream's, plus theirs was a one-off performance for a specific purpose), but I AM a big Cream fan, and think Ginger is a great drummer who loves to ruffle feathers.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: October 17, 2013 03:10
I thought the Cream reunion sounded like a 45 played at 33.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
rob51
()
Date: October 17, 2013 05:27
Yeah I think your right actually. Brian dabbled in many different instruments but was really not great at any of them. Mick J. is apperently a great harp player but this only from Keith so who know's right? Bill played only bass. Did it well but how on earth do you grade bass players? Ron Wood? I like Ron Wood as a celebrity but his playing I think is highly forgettable? I mean do you remember any licks riffs or anything else played by Ron Wood since he joined the band? Maggie May I loved. Anything he's contributed to the STones seems buried in the mix however, and it must be hell knowing that for him?
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
24FPS
()
Date: October 17, 2013 05:53
Quote
rob51
Yeah I think your right actually. Brian dabbled in many different instruments but was really not great at any of them. Mick J. is apperently a great harp player but this only from Keith so who know's right? Bill played only bass. Did it well but how on earth do you grade bass players? Ron Wood? I like Ron Wood as a celebrity but his playing I think is highly forgettable? I mean do you remember any licks riffs or anything else played by Ron Wood since he joined the band? Maggie May I loved. Anything he's contributed to the STones seems buried in the mix however, and it must be hell knowing that for him?
Brian was great at slide guitar. Bill played marimbas on Don't Be A Stanger, vibraphone on Monkey Man, and organ on Jumping Jack Flash to name a few. He took piano lessons as a child, which Brian did also. Bill should be graded as a great bass player. He played bass, not someone playing lead guitar on a bass. Mick Jagger is a good harp player. I think it's debatable whether he was better than Brian. Charlie appears to be the drummer's drummer, no flash, just cash. Mick Taylor was a very talented all around musician. Keith was a very nimble lead player in his long ago youth. And Ron Wood is pretty good, if you like his style of bass on more than Emotional Rescue, that's subjective.
Ginger Baker was a good drummer. To me he was not better than Bonham or Moon, just different. And he has no business being mentioned in the same breath as Max Roach. And here's why:
[www.youtube.com]
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
stonehearted
()
Date: October 17, 2013 06:06
But Max thinks very highly of Ginger, and they've become good friends over the years.
And it isn't many a UK or Western musician that can make such an impression and be accepted by the likes of Fela Kuti and The Africa '70.
And it isn't many a UK or Western musician that can make such an impression and be accepted by the likes of Fela Kuti and The Africa '70.
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
TheGreek
()
Date: October 17, 2013 13:44
jealous
Re: Ginger Baker: Charlie fan - Rolling Stone, October 11
Posted by:
Doxa
()
Date: October 17, 2013 14:55
The consensus here at IORR seems to be that Ginger Baker is over-rated untalanted freak, but here is what Charlie Watts says of him in interview from 1994:
If you had a child . . .
I do!
Who wanted to become a professional rock drummer, would you suggest . . .
No. I would say be a drummer, not a rock drummer. What the @#$%&’s a rock drummer? I mean, I don’t know what a rock drummer is.
Bonham, for one.
Well, that’s John Bonham playing with Led Zeppelin. Is that rock and roll?
It’s part of it, sure.
What would I say to him? I wouldn’t say anything.
Would you suggest a course of study, people he or she should hear?
Yeah. I would say learn to read music and listen to other people other than John Bonham. Now you’ve got totally the wrong impression about what I just said – I can see it in your face. [Leans forward and speaks carefully.] John Bonham is the best at being John Bonham and doing what he does. Or did – unfortunately, he’s dead. He was the best. There wasn’t anyone better than John like that, and thank goodness we’ve got some records so that you can hear it. But there are a lot of other people.
Ginger Baker was a much better drummer than John Bonham, if you really want to know about drumming. Ginger Baker is the best drummer to emigrate out of England. Really, Ginger is. And the guy who Ginger idolized – whatever the word was – we all did – was a guy called Phil Seaman. And Ginger learned everything off Phil. But Ginger can read, you know. Ginger’s not a foal. He can read music, he has wonderful chops, he has rudiments down. Having said all that, I don’t. So I would say to anyone – not only my offspring, but anyone – that’s what you should do, really. Otherwise, you’re locked into doing what I do. Which is fine. It worked for me.
.
The most important thing of all of it is to be you. There’s a load of people who play brilliant drums, but there’s only one Billy Higgins. There is only one Elvin Jones. There’s only one . . . And the reason there’s only one of them is their personality. Elvin is a huge black dynamo, you know. Naturally when you listen to him go, that’s what he sounds like. And it doesn’t have to be fast. It is this machine going. It’s not a machine that’s clicking regular; it’s what Miles used to call “between the beats.” It’s African. It’s what he is, man. Ginger is the same. Ginger is this skinny, huge white man who plays monstrous. But Ginger played like that when he was 20. I used to see him play.
Before Cream.
Yeah! God, he took over for me with a band in England, Alexis [Korner’s Blues Incorporated], but I used to know him before that – 1960. I first heard Ginger playin’ in 59, I think. And he was bloody good then. Don’t mean good – I mean bloody good. Him and Jack Bruce used to play in one of the best – well, the most exciting, if it wasn’t the best – jazz groups in London. And you don’t get in those bands by being half good. They were very good. ’Cause there’s a lot of guys who are very good.
Did you hear Ginger on the Masters of Reality record?
No. I kind of lost track of Ginger’s recording career because he disappeared to Italy at one time. I wanted him to play in an orchestra I had, but I could never track him down. I speak to Jack Bruce quite a bit.
- Doxa
If you had a child . . .
I do!
Who wanted to become a professional rock drummer, would you suggest . . .
No. I would say be a drummer, not a rock drummer. What the @#$%&’s a rock drummer? I mean, I don’t know what a rock drummer is.
Bonham, for one.
Well, that’s John Bonham playing with Led Zeppelin. Is that rock and roll?
It’s part of it, sure.
What would I say to him? I wouldn’t say anything.
Would you suggest a course of study, people he or she should hear?
Yeah. I would say learn to read music and listen to other people other than John Bonham. Now you’ve got totally the wrong impression about what I just said – I can see it in your face. [Leans forward and speaks carefully.] John Bonham is the best at being John Bonham and doing what he does. Or did – unfortunately, he’s dead. He was the best. There wasn’t anyone better than John like that, and thank goodness we’ve got some records so that you can hear it. But there are a lot of other people.
Ginger Baker was a much better drummer than John Bonham, if you really want to know about drumming. Ginger Baker is the best drummer to emigrate out of England. Really, Ginger is. And the guy who Ginger idolized – whatever the word was – we all did – was a guy called Phil Seaman. And Ginger learned everything off Phil. But Ginger can read, you know. Ginger’s not a foal. He can read music, he has wonderful chops, he has rudiments down. Having said all that, I don’t. So I would say to anyone – not only my offspring, but anyone – that’s what you should do, really. Otherwise, you’re locked into doing what I do. Which is fine. It worked for me.
.
The most important thing of all of it is to be you. There’s a load of people who play brilliant drums, but there’s only one Billy Higgins. There is only one Elvin Jones. There’s only one . . . And the reason there’s only one of them is their personality. Elvin is a huge black dynamo, you know. Naturally when you listen to him go, that’s what he sounds like. And it doesn’t have to be fast. It is this machine going. It’s not a machine that’s clicking regular; it’s what Miles used to call “between the beats.” It’s African. It’s what he is, man. Ginger is the same. Ginger is this skinny, huge white man who plays monstrous. But Ginger played like that when he was 20. I used to see him play.
Before Cream.
Yeah! God, he took over for me with a band in England, Alexis [Korner’s Blues Incorporated], but I used to know him before that – 1960. I first heard Ginger playin’ in 59, I think. And he was bloody good then. Don’t mean good – I mean bloody good. Him and Jack Bruce used to play in one of the best – well, the most exciting, if it wasn’t the best – jazz groups in London. And you don’t get in those bands by being half good. They were very good. ’Cause there’s a lot of guys who are very good.
Did you hear Ginger on the Masters of Reality record?
No. I kind of lost track of Ginger’s recording career because he disappeared to Italy at one time. I wanted him to play in an orchestra I had, but I could never track him down. I speak to Jack Bruce quite a bit.
- Doxa
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